Then let me rephrase it. A large degree of fault for our stumbles this season lie at his door. Can't lose to derby and say "I was only allowed 300mil instead of 400m"
Brand first, football second - This is the problem
- Thread starter Jamie Shawcross
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Is it Woodwards fault we are being outplayed at OT by Derby and Wolverhampton? No.
Is it his fault we are dropping a shitload of points against newly promoted teams? No.
Is it his fault we can only seem to play good football for 45min? No.
Thats all on Mourinho and his terrible brand of football,he doesnt seem capable of motivating the players.
Mourinho is a huge problem and has spent an absolute fortune on players he wanted and he fails at getting the best out of them.
Is it his fault we are dropping a shitload of points against newly promoted teams? No.
Is it his fault we can only seem to play good football for 45min? No.
Thats all on Mourinho and his terrible brand of football,he doesnt seem capable of motivating the players.
Mourinho is a huge problem and has spent an absolute fortune on players he wanted and he fails at getting the best out of them.
Absolutely agree, but has he or any other fans said that?
I haven't seen many people saying Jose is faultless mate
The problem is much bigger and deep rooted than our performance against wolves and derby or Jose relationship with some players. Sacking Mourinho won't solve anything in my opinion, we just get a new manager with a different set of problems
Said it in those exact words or repeatedly implied it? Take a trip to the Woodward thread after a loss to a bottomfeeder and you'll get your answer
I'll properly respond to this now (but it's pretty much for the Woodward thread as I said before): I think it's clear he does. He sacked Moyes and Van Gaal when they fell outside the top four. For all the talk about the financial problems from that scenario - it also signals we're not meeting expectations for club like ours. So I don't know how you or anyone else can say he doesn't care about results. I think he's just too bloody patient (refuses to jump the gun) and has wasted a couple of seasons at least since Ferguson retired. He didn't become the financial expert he is by making 'rash' decisions (you can debate what is rash all day).
I also don't understand why the club should not care about our brand. Every other bloody club cares about their brand, including the club breaking records last season. Our brand is what makes our club so famous across the planet and it (in combination with our romantic history) is what keeps United such a huge and talked about club despite our recent struggles.
I imagine he does care but it's not his fcuking job to win titles. He's hired two managers with good/excellent CVs and he's provided them with transfers. What else does he have to do that's of top priority?
Do you reckon he sits watching the team every week (both home and away) because he just cares about the financials? I mean we all love to laugh at his expressions so we can at least acknowledge he's there pretty much every match watching on.
Utd dropped the football club off there badge in 2000 I think 18 yrs ago, branding Manchester United, it global massive , SAF made us this massive, the powers that be now run the club a business first, football 2nd, last season , everyone was happy 2nd in league FA cup final..
This season bad start, ok only 2 losses, but way off the pace, and I guess as long as there's European football champions league , decent cup run, every sponsor is seeing there logos, money money. Results for fans, football to be enjoyed, winning games all but gone in last few seasons. I haven't been to OT for a few yrs, but I bet there's even more people with cameras taking pics rather than watching the football..
This season bad start, ok only 2 losses, but way off the pace, and I guess as long as there's European football champions league , decent cup run, every sponsor is seeing there logos, money money. Results for fans, football to be enjoyed, winning games all but gone in last few seasons. I haven't been to OT for a few yrs, but I bet there's even more people with cameras taking pics rather than watching the football..
I totally disagree. The only reason Moyes and LVG were sacked by Woodward is because the club missed out on CL money. He only sacked them for that reason in my opinion. Woodward is a money man, that is the only reason the Glazers appointed him as CEO.
He is here to gain sponsorship deals, to increase the clubs value, to make money for the Glazers and to satisfy investors.
Facts are if we get top 4 the owners are happy. The Glazers don't give a rip about their American football team, why would they be obsessed with United? It is an INVESTMENT for them. Our club is a business first now. If we miss top 4 this year, watch how much we invest for the new manager this summer to get us back into the Champions League places. It is not what this amazing club deserves, but it is what we have. We could somewhat deal with this if it wasn't for the fact that even the Scousers are investing and looking to win the league now. Something has to change and quick or we will just be the next huge club living in the past.
There seems to be a new problem cropping up every day. We should make an advent calendar with each of our problems behind the 25 windows. Then gift it to people you hate
The two go hand-in-hand. Woodward is oft portrayed as a money man but I'm certain he's just as much a fan as we are. The problem is that he is stuck between a rock and a hard place and he's not a hard man.
Fergie had to deal with the glazers and at a harder time than this, but he adapted to change and tried to make the best out of the situation. Fergie never complained about the lack of investment and always backed his teams to challenge regardless to transfers. Also we're no different than any of the other top european clubs in that regard.
My only issue with the powers that be right now is the lack of clear vision. Woody thought that hiring a top manager and supporting him in the market would work, but mourinho was never a right fit for the club, nor were van gaal or moyes. Right now we keep rebuilding the squad after every managerial change, as each one came with a different philosophy, and this is where we lack the vision.
We need a manager that fits the club in terms of football and attitude, someone who'll build the team in a way that allows any successor to do well.
My only issue with the powers that be right now is the lack of clear vision. Woody thought that hiring a top manager and supporting him in the market would work, but mourinho was never a right fit for the club, nor were van gaal or moyes. Right now we keep rebuilding the squad after every managerial change, as each one came with a different philosophy, and this is where we lack the vision.
We need a manager that fits the club in terms of football and attitude, someone who'll build the team in a way that allows any successor to do well.
Derby and Brighton losses have nothing to do with how much the club focuses on the brand. It's all Jose there.
Our problem has nothing to do with brand. We have constantly recruited badly while shelling alot of money in transfers and wages,and we do not have any squad or management stability with clear vision.
No one is saying Mourinho is faultless, in fact I already want him gone now, but we're trying to look at the bigger picture and see what is next. This is much better than burying our heads in sand and convincing ourselves we get Zidane tomorrow and we go to win the league. We previously thought the full problem lies at Moyes and LVG doors and nothing was solved by them leaving. They both still deserved to leave as much as Mourinho deserves now, but it doesn't mean the club is great and well run while managers have been the full problem. We're sacking managers but leaving other problems unsolved.
How is that hard to grasp ?
How is that hard to grasp ?
I think the problem is who we are buying and why we are buying them. Falcao, Di maria,Pogba, Schweinsteiger and Sanchez....alot of it had to do with signing a brand player without figuring out how they would fit into our set up. Jose is not blameless in this either, the Pogba signing was so unplanned. Its clear that he aimed to turn Pogba into a more box to box midfielder,and quickly realized how impossible that task was, we could easily have saved that money spent on Pogba, bought a better centre back, and another midfielder with a much cheaper price.
He is right though. But i would plan a complete restructure. Sacking Jose, bringing in a recruitment officer who works hand in hand with the manager, and hiring a manager willing to adopt the tactical and moral values of the club. In addition selling both Pogba and Martial would help in spelling a new era at the club.
Same as it ever was.
I believe United are gearing the business towards the high performance fan and rightly so. It's a 5 year project and will eventually yield a giant transfer kitty. I've seen the science and research behind the plan and it shows this to be a win-win-win situation.
That's what Lvg accused us off as well. Its pretty eveident in how woodwards conducting transfer windows.
Explain please?
How can they be expected to succeed at Manchester United? Mourinho should be applauded for even managing to field eleven players considering he's only got the two most expensive players in the country and only spent a pathetic £400 million.
United have spent £700 million with two managers over four (?) seasons. How could the team possibly be expected to succeed?
If it's brand first, then we're doing a pretty shitty job too, to be fair. The Adventures of Paul and Jose is just one of the commercial and public relation catastrophes. We're going to start missing out on sponsorship deals soon i stuff like this continues.
One thing makes that theory unrealitistic, the wage bill. If they didn't care, they wouldn't spend that much on wages particularly when it's not spent on players with particularly high profile, these players don't contribute to the brand of the club, it's the club that contributes to their brand. The reality is that we simply made poor managerial choices, the structure of the club is seemingly still built for SAF who isn't here anymore and no one has the abilities to fill that space, as long as the club doesn't adapt its structure to his current reality, we will most likely underperform.
Completely missing the point. Great sarcasm, would read again.
If anything, our lack of success is an unfortunate indicator that it is indeed possible to grow the brand and retain a position close to the global elite in that regard, with little sporting success to show for it. As long as you are in the CL, I reckon woodward is happy.
Spell out your point again then. Massive transfers and massive wages to achieve the same success as Spurs. That doesn't make business sense. Neither does hiring one of the most expensive managers available and firing two managers (at great expense) who were achieving the success the board have apparently settled for.
Nobody is saying the Glazers/Woodward would allow us to fade into obscurity but let me frame it this way for you;
Scenario 1: JM identifies we will need to spend £300m to have a realistic chance of overtaking City this season. The additional revenue for winning the league (as opposed to finishing top 4) is about £20m in prize money
Scenario 2: Don’t listen to Jose, don’t spend the money, scrape into 4th and save £250m on transfer fees.
I think I know what George Soros is pushing for and guess what, I bet George Soros doesn’t even know who Derby are or what the Carabao Cup is so I highely doubt they give a monkeys about the debacle the other night
Its been happening for 15yrs, it’s been happening infront of our eyes. This is not a benefit of hindshight - the alarm bells have been ringing for years!
What do you expect when your CEO has a strong background in commercial and financial activities but little to none in footballing? It was always going to be this way if you didn't appoint a DoF or someone to assist Woodward during his early tenure. The fact that nobody did means that he's still struggling in certain aspects of the job while excelling at what we already knew he was excellent at. A DoF should be an immediate installation at the club as they're not just involved with transfers but the overall club footballing ethos from top to bottom. That wavelength is paramount to have and is why United were so successful underneath SAF, everyone at the club was together and a unit. It doesn't need to be another SAF machine, it just needs to re-find a singular identity that everyone follows.
The idea is that the club have prioritised the commercial side in recent years is interesting hypothesis. Especially considering the fact that although United have been ahead of the curve in terms of sponsorship, they were quite late when it comes to social media. City joined Twitter in 2008, Arsenal/Chelsea/Liverpool joined in 2009; United didn't have an official club account until 2012. I remember reading that Sir Alex was quite resistant to that side of the game, so maybe that's contributed to the malaise that's set in around the club. It doesn't even have to be a conscious decision to say "we're a footballing giant, won it 20 times so let's focus on becoming a corporate behemouth", but if you take your eye off the ball slightly it can have an impact. Winning might still be the main priority for United but in Sir Alex's pomp it was the only priority.
I have always been bewildered by this "you are either first or last" logic.
A lot of people mocked the Belgians for celebrating finishing third in the WC. Yes, they did worde than the finalists, but they also did better than the other 29 sides... Not to mention the ones who did not qualify.
By the same logic, Liverpool had a better 2017/18 CL run than all sides in Europe bar one... Or you think they did similarly to United, given that neither side won the competition?
Correct on all points.
We have already failed to win the league for 5-6 years and the result of that is that we are the biggest (financially) team in the country. I think that we could fail to win the league for another 6 years and we'd still remain the biggest financial powerhouse in the league.
I think that we are following the Arsenal model of top 4.
Brand v Football - I thought this was about Pogba
Maybe this is true. Maybe that's why Woodward is content with what's happening and doesn't seem worried in the least. A CEO worth his salt would be asking questions right about now as to why we've spent 400 million quid and still don't look close to being among the elite teams in Europe. Woodward can't continue in this role, he let's coaches get away with murder and it's not helpful to our cause.
What set up? 400m warchest for 2years. Best training facilities bar city. A club Excecutitive who leaves you to manage the team. Yes terrible job to have.
I agree with most of the post although I think Jose is one if the problems. I agree that we have come to become nothing more than a brand to the owners and that hurts. Sadly the owners just see us as as a corporate cash cow and as long as the money keeps coming in they are going to be around a while. Personally I think they shoulld have backed Jose in the summer although I am not his biggest fan. If they had any ambition they should have given him whatever funds he wanted for him to get who he felt would get us back to where we deserve to be fighting at the top of the league not hoping to beat Spurs for 4th. We are United and should be aiming for the League and with the finances we have be aiming for the latter stages of the Champions League. It hurts that you have people running the club who don't respect the clubs values. It shows they don't care about giving the fans entertainment as long as they grab that magical 4th Champions League spot and that hurts. Now it would be hard to control every aspect of the club as Sir Alex did, even if the owners allowed it to happen as the club has got so big it is too big a job for one man. What some people don't realise is why Sir Alex was so good is that he constantly grew more with the club himself as he built it. Louis Van Gaal tried doing what Sir Alex did but I read an article once wgete Louis said it is more than a one man job. I agree with the overhaul but the people running the club are great commercially but clueless on the football side of things.
