Brandon Williams is better than Luke Shaw

roonster09

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Haha, ‘Stevie Me’. Someone who has the audacity to suggest Brandon Williams won’t be a future United regular is some sort of attention seeker?! Greenwood, I’d understand. The fact that ‘nobody else can see’ a scenario of Williams not being our LB for years says more of them than it does about me.

Greenwood - ‘not good enough as a regular starter now and never will be’. Now that is controversial. Because he’s different class to Brandon. Clearly. Far more likely that we would struggle to find a better forward than the fully developed version of Mason. If you think the same about Mason, you’re entitled to, but it’s hardly a controversial view to think otherwise.
It's not controversial either to think its silly to write off a young player who is playing his first season at professional level. I don't understand what's the point of it, Brandon Williams has played good games as well as bad ones. Many of today's FBs weren't regular players for top teams at his age.
 

Rozay

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It's not controversial either to think its silly to write off a young player who is playing his first season at professional level. I don't understand what's the point of it, Brandon Williams has played good games as well as bad ones. Many of today's FBs weren't regular players for top teams at his age.
In that case nobody is entitled to an opinion of a footballer (unless it’s a glowing and gushing one) until he’s played about 2 full seasons or something?
 

roonster09

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In that case nobody is entitled to an opinion of a footballer (unless it’s a glowing and gushing one) until he’s played about 2 full seasons or something?
There is a difference in judging players who have played for many seasons and the young players who are playing their first season and barely played any games.

If all the young players are written off for not being special from first season then there won't be any players in top leagues, including players like Kane, Robertson and other great players.

Edit: Just to add some balance, posters saying he will be next Maldini or among best LBs in the world are as worse as posters who have written off him.
 

Rozay

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There is a difference in judging players who have played for many seasons and the young players who are playing their first season and barely played any games.

If all the young players are written off for not being special from first season then there won't be any players in top leagues, including players like Kane, Robertson and other great players.

Edit: Just to add some balance, posters saying he will be next Maldini or among best LBs in the world are as worse as posters who have written off him.
Fair enough. I just think ‘written off’ is strong. It’s my observation. I think a person can watch 10 games of a player and say It don’t see it’. Whatever happens with that player happens, but my position at the moment is that I don’t see a Manchester United player in him. Of course, his destiny is ultimately up to him. Just that, given the percentage of them that ultimately do not end up being good enough, I don’t think it’s that bad a thing to say.

Also, in our struggles, perhaps I am even more harsh than normal in situations like this. We need to be more ruthless and have suffered a lot of substandard players in recent years. I think our view to youth is a gift and a curse. We pride ourselves on giving chances, but then as we know, most aren’t good enough. While we are figuring that out, of course, we are playing a lot of players who aren’t good enough. We laugh at City for only really giving Foden a chance, but is that something to be mocked? Perhaps the club have decided that Foden level is the barto make it through, and when you look at their team, should it be knocked? They are a lot better than us, but we play academy kids who wouldn’t play for them. Which is fine, but they are second, and have won the last two titles, and we are 7th.

In general, I think we need to raise the standards in the team/squad, and I think we are a bit too nice in terms of our ideals, at least as a fan base. We make excuses for players all the time, but ultimately, the proof is in the pudding. We are not, and have not been very good. Perhaps this has made me withdraw from the traditional ‘play all the kids’ philosophy we love so much. By all means, play the best ones. I’m a Greenwood and Laird ‘fanboy’, I got ‘Greenwood #26’ on my United shirt as soon as it came out. I can’t wait to see Mejbri in the team. I’m not anti-academy, but I’m not in this ‘play Williams, Levitt, Garner, Ramazani and just about anyone‘ camp. The team needs help. We need kids who can come in and really help the team, but the sense I get on here is that it’s almost supposed to be the other way round in terms of what we can do for the kids.
 

Nou_Camp99

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Play Wan Bissaka on the left and he'd be an absolute embarrassment. Brandon isn't left footed so it's a huge disadvantage. Not many right footed left backs have been good over years. Lahm & Irwin immediately jump out. After that I'm struggling tbh.
 

roonster09

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Fair enough. I just think ‘written off’ is strong. It’s my observation. I think a person can watch 10 games of a player and say It don’t see it’. Whatever happens with that player happens, but my position at the moment is that I don’t see a Manchester United player in him. Of course, his destiny is ultimately up to him. Just that, given the percentage of them that ultimately do not end up being good enough, I don’t think it’s that bad a thing to say.

Also, in our struggles, perhaps I am even more harsh than normal in situations like this. We need to be more ruthless and have suffered a lot of substandard players in recent years. I think our view to youth is a gift and a curse. We pride ourselves on giving chances, but then as we know, most aren’t good enough. While we are figuring that out, of course, we are playing a lot of players who aren’t good enough. We laugh at City for only really giving Foden a chance, but is that something to be mocked? Perhaps the club have decided that Foden level is the barto make it through, and when you look at their team, should it be knocked? They are a lot better than us, but we play academy kids who wouldn’t play for them. Which is fine, but they are second, and have won the last two titles, and we are 7th.

In general, I think we need to raise the standards in the team/squad, and I think we are a bit too nice in terms of our ideals, at least as a fan base. We make excuses for players all the time, but ultimately, the proof is in the pudding. We are not, and have not been very good. Perhaps this has made me withdraw from the traditional ‘play all the kids’ philosophy we love so much. By all means, play the best ones. I’m a Greenwood and Laird ‘fanboy’, I got ‘Greenwood #26’ on my United shirt as soon as it came out. I can’t wait to see Mejbri in the team. I’m not anti-academy, but I’m not in this ‘play Williams, Levitt, Garner, Ramazani and just about anyone‘ camp. The team needs help. We need kids who can come in and really help the team, but the sense I get on here is that it’s almost supposed to be the other way round in terms of what we can do for the kids.
IMO it's just wrong. 10 games isn't enough, especially for a young players who makes step up from U18/U23. Each to their own, you think it's silly to hype academy kids, I find it silly that people write off young players so early even when we have plenty of examples in PL and in ManUtd squad itself. Obviously not everyone can become first team key player, they can become squad players which can save us millions to invest for first 11.

Our view to youth is not a curse, if we had strong team we don't have to rely on young player from academy when they are so young. They are used as stop gaps or experiments which is result of our failed recruitment system.

Promoting Williams shouldn't be a problem, he is just young player. Relying on players like Shaw who doesn't offer much in the attack and been here for 7 years is the problem. If Shaw was demoted to squad player position and signed a good LB then we don't have to turn to academy players every time.

Unproven young players > proven shit players. At least you never know what you get from them and from shit players you always know you will get shit performance.
 

The Stain

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Posters in changing their minds based on one game shocker. Luke Shaw is not good, Brandon Williams has the potential to become good for us. He's already been good for us, performing consistently well except yesterday.

Also, what @roonster09 just said.
 

stevoc

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Shaw is a good LCB in a back five and a decent left back. Williams has large potential as a wing-back, but at present you'd expect him to be somewhat more inconsistent than Shaw. Both players have their uses, adding different qualities to our team. The two of them have on a few occasions done fairly well together in the 3-5-2 formation. Against Brugge not so much. As full back I'd prefer Williams. That is if he is turned properly "on". In the long run I hope to see that determination down our left flank in every game.
I'm just not seeing that myself to be honest. I've been impressed with his performances this season for a young player. I've seen enough to think he could be a solid fullback one day. But i just don't see enough attacking talent there to see how he would ever be a good wing-back certainly not on the left anyway with him being right footed.
 

Zlatans Knee

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Fair enough. I just think ‘written off’ is strong. It’s my observation. I think a person can watch 10 games of a player and say It don’t see it’. Whatever happens with that player happens, but my position at the moment is that I don’t see a Manchester United player in him. Of course, his destiny is ultimately up to him. Just that, given the percentage of them that ultimately do not end up being good enough, I don’t think it’s that bad a thing to say.

Also, in our struggles, perhaps I am even more harsh than normal in situations like this. We need to be more ruthless and have suffered a lot of substandard players in recent years. I think our view to youth is a gift and a curse. We pride ourselves on giving chances, but then as we know, most aren’t good enough. While we are figuring that out, of course, we are playing a lot of players who aren’t good enough. We laugh at City for only really giving Foden a chance, but is that something to be mocked? Perhaps the club have decided that Foden level is the barto make it through, and when you look at their team, should it be knocked? They are a lot better than us, but we play academy kids who wouldn’t play for them. Which is fine, but they are second, and have won the last two titles, and we are 7th.

In general, I think we need to raise the standards in the team/squad, and I think we are a bit too nice in terms of our ideals, at least as a fan base. We make excuses for players all the time, but ultimately, the proof is in the pudding. We are not, and have not been very good. Perhaps this has made me withdraw from the traditional ‘play all the kids’ philosophy we love so much. By all means, play the best ones. I’m a Greenwood and Laird ‘fanboy’, I got ‘Greenwood #26’ on my United shirt as soon as it came out. I can’t wait to see Mejbri in the team. I’m not anti-academy, but I’m not in this ‘play Williams, Levitt, Garner, Ramazani and just about anyone‘ camp. The team needs help. We need kids who can come in and really help the team, but the sense I get on here is that it’s almost supposed to be the other way round in terms of what we can do for the kids.
I think all that is needed here is a bit of perspective. He is a still a very young player in his first season at 1st team level. He has had some good games, some okay games, and some rubbish ones. Did you think that McTominay was "a Manchester United player" when he first came on the scene? Looking at other teams, did anyone think that Andy Robertson would become one of the World's best left backs when Liverpool signed him? The point is that we have decided to play some of these academy players and that means we need to take the rough with the smooth. None of us can know at this stage how good Williams is going to be. We can only hope that over time the good games will take over from the mediocre and the rubbish. But what we do need to do is give the the guy some time and not overreact on a couple of crappy performances. It is an unfamiliar position for him and we don't really have anyone else who can play in that position with the system that we are using anyway so maybe we should just cut him some slack for a while.
I have read some of your other posts though and you don't strike me as a "glass is half full" sort of person so I won't hold my breath.
Also..re City & Foden, you know there is a reason as to why people refer them as being a plastic club right? It is a hard thing to have your cake and eat it.
 

kouroux

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Play Wan Bissaka on the left and he'd be an absolute embarrassment. Brandon isn't left footed so it's a huge disadvantage. Not many right footed left backs have been good over years. Lahm & Irwin immediately jump out. After that I'm struggling tbh.
Zanetti was fantastic on either flanks too
 

Denis' cuff

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Regardless of which one is better, we will certainly be in the market for an attacking left fullback/wingback this summer, if Pochettino is coming aboard.
:rolleyes:
he won’t be. Nor will a new lb be “coming aboard “.

as bad as the club has been run in recent years, I think even they have finally realised a revolving door of managers is not doing us any good, despite what idle gamers might think.
pretty sure we’ll be trying for a bit of stability and ew will be taking on advice from the football people. A new and novel approach but it could work
 

Rozay

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I think all that is needed here is a bit of perspective. He is a still a very young player in his first season at 1st team level. He has had some good games, some okay games, and some rubbish ones. Did you think that McTominay was "a Manchester United player" when he first came on the scene? Looking at other teams, did anyone think that Andy Robertson would become one of the World's best left backs when Liverpool signed him? The point is that we have decided to play some of these academy players and that means we need to take the rough with the smooth. None of us can know at this stage how good Williams is going to be. We can only hope that over time the good games will take over from the mediocre and the rubbish. But what we do need to do is give the the guy some time and not overreact on a couple of crappy performances. It is an unfamiliar position for him and we don't really have anyone else who can play in that position with the system that we are using anyway so maybe we should just cut him some slack for a while.
I have read some of your other posts though and you don't strike me as a "glass is half full" sort of person so I won't hold my breath.
Also..re City & Foden, you know there is a reason as to why people refer them as being a plastic club right? It is a hard thing to have your cake and eat it.
I don’t think I’m either a half full or half empty person. I try to just be a realist, at least what I consider that to be. Ultimately, that just comes over time really. Our team being rubbish, young players you thought had it not having it. Over time, you perhaps reset your parameters a bit.

And no, I didn’t think McTominay was a United player. I barely thought he was a PL player. I think more of him now, but I’m still not of the view that he’s a first XI for the long term just yet. On the flip side, I saw that Andy Robertson could become a top left back at Hull, and advocated us signing him on here a number of times while he was at Hull. I’m not saying that to say I’m some sort of scout, I’m saying it to just say that I will watch a player and give my opinion on him, regardless on what the consensus is, or who he plays for. I think I’ve watched football for long enough to have earned the right to be able to watch a footballer and have a view. With Robertson, I saw more talent in him than I see in Williams. That said, when Williams pulls on the shirt, I’m right behind him. I think he has a chance to become a player, but I don’t think he’s ready to be in the first team ahead of Shaw. I’d prefer a better LB in the summer ideally, but if not and funds are low, then I’d have Shaw in the team because he’s better than Williams.
 

Odin

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I'm just not seeing that myself to be honest. I've been impressed with his performances this season for a young player. I've seen enough to think he could be a solid fullback one day. But i just don't see enough attacking talent there to see how he would ever be a good wing-back certainly not on the left anyway with him being right footed.
Fair enough. He may not tick all the boxes yet, but he's got that drive and determination. On several occasions he has initiated some nice interplay and gotten less dynamic teammates on their toes. As your post suggests he may have larger potential as a right wing-back, but that spot is occupied. If AWB can whip in more crosses like the one he had to Martial against Chelsea, I don't see that spot available for years.
 

Canadianred17

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We have a tendency to really gas up and overrate our youngsters. All fans do that, but United fans are probably the worst for it. Truth be told Brandon has done well, but no better than Borthwick-Jackson did back in 15/16, and we saw how it worked out for him.

Right now you all just need to slow you're role. He's clearly not a better player than Shaw, and the shouts for him to go to the Euros are ridiculous.


You should have seen some of the posts about Borthwick-Jackson and Fosu-Mensah.

James Wilson was another.

"We don't need a [insert position that desperately needs strengthening] because we have [insert academy player who isn't ready]" is in the Redcafe DNA
People were saying he should go to the Euros? Good lord.
 

Dorris

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Posters in changing their minds based on one game shocker. Luke Shaw is not good, Brandon Williams has the potential to become good for us. He's already been good for us, performing consistently well except yesterday.

Also, what @roonster09 just said.
Luke Shaw's had a brilliant 2020 so far. Not sure how you can just state he's not good. He's underwhelmed since his injury, but he's a very solid left back who's brilliant technically and defensively, if a bit tentative going forward.
 

Infra-red

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:rolleyes:
he won’t be. Nor will a new lb be “coming aboard “.

as bad as the club has been run in recent years, I think even they have finally realised a revolving door of managers is not doing us any good, despite what idle gamers might think.
pretty sure we’ll be trying for a bit of stability and ew will be taking on advice from the football people. A new and novel approach but it could work
This, of course, remains to be seen. I hope, for the sake of the club, that your prediction is proven to be wrong.
 

crossy1686

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Glad to see posters writing off a 19 year old who has 680min of premier league football.
The cafe in a nutshell.

Rashford, Greenwood, and McTomminay were written off before him, while youngsters who never get a game are amazing and it's all the managers' fault for not picking them.
 

Zlatans Knee

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I don’t think I’m either a half full or half empty person. I try to just be a realist, at least what I consider that to be. Ultimately, that just comes over time really. Our team being rubbish, young players you thought had it not having it. Over time, you perhaps reset your parameters a bit.

And no, I didn’t think McTominay was a United player. I barely thought he was a PL player. I think more of him now, but I’m still not of the view that he’s a first XI for the long term just yet. On the flip side, I saw that Andy Robertson could become a top left back at Hull, and advocated us signing him on here a number of times while he was at Hull. I’m not saying that to say I’m some sort of scout, I’m saying it to just say that I will watch a player and give my opinion on him, regardless on what the consensus is, or who he plays for. I think I’ve watched football for long enough to have earned the right to be able to watch a footballer and have a view. With Robertson, I saw more talent in him than I see in Williams. That said, when Williams pulls on the shirt, I’m right behind him. I think he has a chance to become a player, but I don’t think he’s ready to be in the first team ahead of Shaw. I’d prefer a better LB in the summer ideally, but if not and funds are low, then I’d have Shaw in the team because he’s better than Williams.
I agree that he is a better left back than Williams, but the issue is that we are not playing 442 at the moment. We are playing with wing backs and 3 at the back. Shaw seems to be needed in the back 3 and perhaps is not suited to the wing back position (we have all seen him huffing and puffing whenever he has had to do this in the past). So that leaves us with precious few options unfortunately. We would have a different problem if we switch back to 442, we don't have anyone who can play properly on the left wing without moving Martial from his striker position, and even then it is not perfect. So for the foreseeable future we will be seeing a lot of Williams so we might as well cross our fingers and hope for the best.
 

stevoc

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Fair enough. He may not tick all the boxes yet, but he's got that drive and determination. On several occasions he has initiated some nice interplay and gotten less dynamic teammates on their toes. As your post suggests he may have larger potential as a right wing-back, but that spot is occupied. If AWB can whip in more crosses like the one he had to Martial against Chelsea, I don't see that spot available for years.
If we're going to continue using 352/343 (i personally hope not) then i wouldn't mind seeing Williams get a run at right wing back to see what he's capable of on his natural side. In that formation i could actually see Wan Bissaka being an excellent right sided CB in a 3, i don't think Aaron's attributes point towards him being a wing back long term.
 

Odin

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If we're going to continue using 352/343 (i personally hope not) then i wouldn't mind seeing Williams get a run at right wing back to see what he's capable of on his natural side. In that formation i could actually see Wan Bissaka being an excellent right sided CB in a 3, i don't think Aaron's attributes point towards him being a wing back long term.
Makes sense. When we get the squad properly sorted, I don't suppose we'll stick with three at the back as our default formation. At the moment, I feel it has been a necessity given the personnel available. Yes, Aaron could be the RCB. However, we have no right winger and leave wide open spaces down our left flank when Shaw is the only one trying to backtrack on that side. I think we'll continue using Aaron wide and pushing forward while we "double up" on the left with Shaw and Williams. To counter Sarr on Sunday, I certainly hope we set up like this. We'll both see how our attacking backs develop in the long run, preferably in a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1.
 

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Williams is an exceptional young player. Shaw is playing well at the moment. Pleased to see our LB department is covered for the next 5+ years, despite many posters opinions this season.
 

Rafaeldagold

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He’s a great talent , but Shaw has played well recently. We desperately need good attacking full backs so let’s hope we can keep both fit & happy for that left side
 

ivaldo

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Regardless of which one is better, we will certainly be in the market for an attacking left fullback/wingback this summer, if Pochettino is coming aboard.
I am almost certain we won't sign a left back in the summer.
 

spiriticon

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IMO, Brandon is better than Shaw at LB. But probably not at LCB.

Ah the fine details...

I'm happy that Shaw has found a new position though. I wonder if a CB pairing of Maguire and Shaw would work.

Williams---Shaw-----Maguire------AWB
 

Infra-red

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I am almost certain we won't sign a left back in the summer.
I hope you've guessed incorrectly.

We could definitely do with some more attacking prowess at left fullback to stretch the play a bit, particularly as we tend to go with a forward on the left-hand side, who will be looking to take up narrow positions and run the channel.
 

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As I mentioned further back in this thread, this statement isn't true, never has been true and may never be true.
 

Negative Red

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I think Shaw has been pretty solid for the last two seasons and Williams has had a decent breakthrough season thus far. Left Back is one of the last positions that need addressing. In terms of who is better, that would be Luke Shaw for now.
 

Isotope

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William emergence gives Shaw a bit kick on his big arse. Now Shaw is playing a bit better as he knows that there’s another young player that can replace him. Instead of a 33 y.o. player that he knew well wouldn’t be here long.

All is good. I like William style more, but he’s not fully ready yet as regular.
 

ivaldo

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I hope you've guessed incorrectly.

We could definitely do with some more attacking prowess at left fullback to stretch the play a bit, particularly as we tend to go with a forward on the left-hand side, who will be looking to take up narrow positions and run the channel.
Both Shaw and Williams are good leftbacks. We have far more pressing areas in need of investment. LB is well down the list.
 

Andersonson

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The cafe in a nutshell.

Rashford, Greenwood, and McTomminay were written off before him, while youngsters who never get a game are amazing and it's all the managers' fault for not picking them.
Yepp!
Its challenging tbf. No wonder football fans are said to be stupid individuals
 

Craig Ward

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People who think Williams is better than Shaw are way off the mark.

Shaw is superior in every aspect. Williams is young and full of promise but right now he's way off.

The Brugge game confirmed a lot of concerns about Williams, he was extremely poor
 

DFreshKing

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People who think Williams is better than Shaw are way off the mark.

Shaw is superior in every aspect. Williams is young and full of promise but right now he's way off.

The Brugge game confirmed a lot of concerns about Williams, he was extremely poor
Shaw has improved this year. That's what competition can do but Williams was much better in the early part of the season and considering his age and experience he was rightly being thought of as our future. Playing two big away games in the space of a few days probably gave a bit of mental fatigue, to explain last nights performance.
 

Snuffkin

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Shaw played his best stuff under lvg, was dynamic going forward into the box. He's got a turn of pace but I doubt he'll get his England place back.
 

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Shaw played his best stuff under lvg, was dynamic going forward into the box. He's got a turn of pace but I doubt he'll get his England place back.
That period is totally overblown. He played about 20 games before the injury.

He looked promising at that stage but he's mostly ineffective at LB.

Hopefully Williams keeps improving but he'll be inconsistent for a few years yet.

Shaw has played better as part of a back 3 as much as I hate that formation.