But that's not transparency, the reason he lies that much is because he knows that a signifcant amount of people won't be able to decipher the truth by themselves. Even if they know that he is lying they still don't know why and how they are being used which is anything but transparency.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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He's transparent, he knows you know he's lying. Don't worry, wave a flag and everything will be OK.
I know it’s not transparency. Hence I said “in this context” i.e. in the post it was used. That’s the way language gets twisted when someone tries to spin an obvious negative into a positive.
Looks like after all that, the UK and EU are going to agree another extension before restrictions on chilled meat would apply to Northern Ireland. Sausage war averted, for now. Classic.
You are not reading my reply properly... Boris and the Tories saved us from the the loony left, that improved life considerably, we could all breath easily again.
In my twenties (admittedly sometime ago) I was a Union Shop steward and had to battle against 'head banger's' from the left. I often wondered what would happen if they had ever got anywhere near the levers of power in Government; it nearly happened with Michael Foot, but thankfully people saw through his rhetoric, same too with Jeremy... phew what a blessed relief!
You still haven’t listed a single thing. You’re just waffling Facebook nonsense.
What would the looney left have done? Specifically.
FFS, I didn't spot your sarcasm.
By the way I've just started reading La Grande Illusion by Barnier, as I'm just reading a few pages a night before I go to sleep it could take me a while.@Maticmaker answer is that the tories allow him to keep his irrational fears toward the loony left. It's a bit like when some americans are asked about the NHS and they start talking nonsense about people not receiving health care due to socialism.
There is no rationality to look for.
I too was a Union shop steward during the mid 1970's. Nothing clever in that.
And as for 'it nearly happened with Michael Foot' you may want to check the facts. It never nearly happened at all. It was a massive defeat.
And finally, you have been listening to too much Tory propaganda. Just because people don't conform to your idea of politics, does not make them 'head bangers or loony'.
Boris Johnson and his Tories have arguably done more damage to this country by taking us out of the EU on a complete pack of lies.
Add to that their total mismanaged of the pandemic and I would be very interested to see your evidence as to how the loony left could have done even remotely as badly.
I know and I knew that when I started the conversation. It’s more for my amusement than anything. He’s famously lacking in any substance and his political views are lifted directly from a Murdoch tabloid. He doesn’t have even the most basic understanding of anything with any detail or nuance which is the real reason he can relate to Boris - because he’s an empty vacuous vessel who also waffles nonsensical dribble when he’s asked to back up his position with facts or reasoning.
We all know I could ask him the question for the next ten years and he still wouldn’t cotton on to the fact he can’t name a single way the Tories have improved his own personal circumstances other than saving him from the boogie men his billionaire overlords have got him so irrationally terrified of.
COMMUNISM!
It is kind of fascinating though. I always wonder if he's a Hectic-esque caricature of his own imagination and he'll eventually pull back the curtain. It always seems like he's right on the edge of it, giggling to himself at the facetiousness of it all. But somehow it always just stays at exactly that level. Is there a French version of that?
Bang on correct and perfectly put.
It is so amusing reading his posts. Just like reading the DM.
Loony left.
Reds under the bed.
Head bangers.
And he mentions Michael Foot with zero understanding of who he was or what he actually stood for.
Michael Foot was actually one of the most principled politicians. Compare and contrast with Boris.
Zero principals.
Compulsive liar.
Inept decision making.
The list goes on, and on, and on.
The thing that surprises me the most about Brexit is the clear lack of planification. For example I was shocked to read that Amsterdam has been exchanging more daily than London in 2021.
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They didn't actually expect to win.
They've been making it up as they go along ever since.
As I said, seriously, Boris will say anything, he doesn't care if you know he's lying or not, he knows enough Brexiters will make up any nonsense simply to justify their vote.
Flag waving, vaccine success, all part of the game.
The only time Boris was telling the truth was 'f*ck business' , he couldn't give a toss.
That is right. The financial services sector has long been a jewel in the crown of the UK economy.
So to see the government happy to agree the Brexit deal without an agreement on that just about sums them up.
A significant number of these jobs has also gone to Paris I understand.
Brexit is a complete indulgence in the illusion that the UK is better off outside one of the worlds most important trading blocks.
But hey. What do I know.
Of course, the french internet is full of them. And it will always amaze me because like the UK, France has mainly voted for right wing politicians since 1958, most people that have an issue with how France is today should obviously blame the traditional right(RPR/UDF) but they won't, they will complain about literally everything and everyone from the left to foreigners or businesses, they will complain about too much taxes while demanding more public services/spendings but they still vote for the same people that have power or didn't due what they voted for.
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That is interesting isn't it.
Is that a throwback from there being a strongish Communist movement in France during the 1970's?
Or is there another reason such as a right wing press?
It's an interesting case maybe @Jippy has some insight but apparently Amsterdam took parts of the stock exchange, Dublin took banks, Paris took companies and Frankfurt a bit of everything.
The french communist party was actually pretty good for the average man and why France has so many social perks. It was particularly strong before the 5th republic, so pre-1958, from that point it has increasingly lost power my theory and the theory that I was taught is that the comfort created by the PCF policies is partially the reason behind its own demise because people consider that what they have is normal that it wasn't the product of a socialist movement that was 100% behind workers. I could be wrong but I believe that there is a parallel with unions in the UK decades ago?
Very much so.
The 1970's and early 80's was a period of increasing power of the trades unions, often resulting in damaging strikes and confrontations.
It is a matter of fact that many of the trades unions were being influenced by the Soviet Union Communist Party.
But having said that, it is also a matter of fact that many of the old heavy industries in the UK were incredibly badly run. Massive under investment and badly run privatisation.
So yes. I do believe that the Labour Party is still associated with the perception of those 'bad old days'
And yet, the trades unions nowadays has almost no power or influence.
It is all about changing people's perceptions.
Your perception is as good as your capacity to envision superfarms in UK
Then you should know what it was like, the 'loony left' playing politics with the working class vote, but never ever giving them even a close call at a victory, just rhetoric... and more rhetoric... always wondered when the little 'red book' would make an appearance.
Foot got himself elected as leader of the Labour party, without a hope in hell of actually taking power, or helping working people, your'e right it was a massive defeat, dashed the hopes of millions. Corbyn was the same, however he did have one or two flashes of inspiration but the knob-heads around him ruined that!
Its not a matter of ideas of politics, its what works 'the loony left' would never get elected in the UK; the working class was as mislead by people of the far left (many of whom thought they were the reincarnation of Lenin and Co.), just as much as they have been bamboozled by the Tories.
You are the one waffling!
The last UK Government (of any description) to do anything worthwhile/long-lasting for the working class, was the end of the WW2 Government and the post war Labour Government. Specifically the Education Act, and the launch of the NHS. These two initiatives ensured the right to education for millions and ensured health support free at the point of use for the populace at large.
Read the history books my friend.
What would the 'loony left' have done, thankfully we never found out, but specifically would probably have ensured the country would go bankrupt, as money fizzed out of the country overnight.
I am certainly doing that, I wouldn't miss the daily diet of Caf 'lefty luvvers' moaning and groaning, keep it up lads makes my day!
You have got to be on a wind up. You’re terrified of the “Looney left” and in the same post cite two of the most left wing policies in British history as the last time a UK government did anything that benefitted the working class?
That’s honestly just too fecking perfect to not be a parody.
Is it possible the stereotypes you have of the people you’re talking to are wildly misguided?
There is a difference between left leaning and 'loony left'.
A 'loony left' Government would never get elected. I am certainly not terrified by to-days 'loony left' they couldn't find their way out of a paper bag... that is if they could agree what should constitute a 'paper bag' in the first place!
Notice you've given up on wanting to know the specifics
Another benefit of Brexit
EE to reintroduce Europe roaming charges in January https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-57595913
EE to reintroduce Europe roaming charges in January https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-57595913
You've got me there.... can't answer because I am uncertain about which possible 'stereotypes'; who I am supposed to be talking with? And am I misguided, or are they?
Just got an email from O2 saying roaming charges now apply if I use more than 25gb of data when roaming in the Eurozone.
Just to think that people in this thread were saying that wouldn't happen only a few months ago, but yet again it's another Brexit prediction which has come true. The others will follow now there is a first mover.
You've got me there.... can't answer because I am uncertain about which possible 'stereotypes'; who I am supposed to be talking with? And am I misguided, or are they?
You even added the emphasis to the group you’ve put them in. Of course that isn’t how they self-identify, and particularly they wouldn’t agree with the connotations you ascribe to it. So is it possible that you’ve misattributed them to a group based on a small proportion of their comments, sometimes misunderstood, and then added in all of those other connotations that come from the sources that use that kind of language and emphasis, which in turn leads to more misinterpretation and framing of their other views?
I don't think everybody needs to lay into you like they're currently doing, but I do wonder about this bit. As another poster also brought up, if the most meaningful political decisions in the UK of the past 100 years are those two huge welfare programs - then why is you fear of the left that they will introduce huge programs that will bankrupt the country? The way you're putting it, it seems to me you would have said the same in, say, the 30s: 'I hope the loony left will never get to power, cause their crazy ideas will bankrupt the country.' Yet here you are, praising those ideas as the only thing worthwhile from post-WW2 politics.
In general, I would argue that this is the standard conservative stance: 'Things are fine the way they are, no need to change things; maybe undo a couple of small bits, but otherwise we should keep things as they are and let people be.' But that overlooks, first, that things got to be the way they are because of daring governments of the past; and second, that a changing society needs changing welfare programs that are better adapted to current realities. (To give a specific example: labour market regulations need an overhaul to deal with the rise of 'self-employed employees' - by which I mean people like package deliverers that are being exploited through very poor labour conditions.)
And if it's not so much about money being spent but money leaving (e.g., because businesses will move to countries with better business conditions): that's race-to-the-bottom talk. As soon as any country lowers business taxes, any company could want to go there; forcing other countries to follow suit, and so on. But lowering taxes means lowering revenue means lowering services - so all at the expense of people in need of support. That's exactly why the G7 is now determined to inverse that trend, by establishing an international minimum bottom level for business taxes. So surely that's not your argument against the left either.
In fact, in general, I would say that a lot of western/northern European and North American societies actually really need the 'loony left' to get in power and do something radical like what Atlee did in the UK. To my mind, they are getting stuck in an increasing disconnect between the upper levels of society, which are doing increasingly well, and the lower levels, which are doing worse financially (in relative terms) and feel ignored by the political discourse. The latter are currently being courted by right-ist populist movements that present solutions in conservative terms (like nationalism and fewer regulations; Brexit!); but I think a real solution would overhaul the welfare system, reverse course on taxes for above-median incomes, and make sure in that way that everyone feels included in society.
And from the way you're putting it, it sounds to me like you could actually get behind that.
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Very difficult to hold a sensible debate with someone who just keeps repeating the same old thing like an extract from the dreaded DM.
So what exactly separates the left from the ‘loony left’?
That seems fairer than going back to the daily charge. I’m with BT, so I’m assuming they will do the same as EE.
They are essentially the same but loony leftists look like cartoons.
Yes Ok hands up you got me there, its a age thing (I think)I love labels!
I am sure a lot of contributors on the Caf are not part of the raving loony left..... they just sound like it a times.
I am sorry, "Mea culpa, Mea culp, Mea maxima culp... I apologise to anyone so offended.
Thank you for your concern, but it goes with the territory as far as I am concerned, one of the reasons I choose to respond and also contribute to these threads is to see what others have to say. As long as people are reasonable in tone and accept others have valid views, then they can lay into me all they want.
I referred to Education and Health because a Labour led Government introduced such measures, during/after WW2 and in part to fulfill the promises made after WW1, i.e. to "build a land fit for heroes", etc. and when National Pride was still part of the Labour vocabulary. However whatever 'left of centre' views might have been held by those Labour stalwarts, a few ideas which would now be described as right-wing were also considered by that Government.
My argument years ago, (and it still is) was with those Labour politicians and supporters that espoused political dogma and the politically purity of left thinking at the expense of achieving realistic objectives. Its not left of centre ideas I don't like its the bundles of crazy political dogma it gets wrapped up in. Many so called politicians and supporters on the left have used the working class as 'political fodder', ironically something they always blame the Tories for!
I was born and brought up in an area where Labour was guaranteed victory at every election, (still is!) consequently when in power Labour did nothing or next to nothing to improve that area, because the votes were 'in the bag', why bother, spend the political capital where it might win over some marginal seat. Similarly the Tories never had any hope of winning this seat and other similar seats surrounding it so they didn't make any investment either, thoughts of leveling up appealed neither to Labour nor to Tories. Whenever there was any 'goodies' handed out from Central Government (whatever its persuasion) we were always on the back row, and still are. (Some people it seems never learn!)
Yes there are certain ideas I would support, but not when wrapped in 'loony left' dogma. The problem for Labour last time out wasn't the ideas (although there were far too many to have been achieved) it was those with an absolute left of centre dogma attached to them. One or two major aims should be targeted.Before you ask me let me throw my biggest issue into the pot. Land Usage and House Building, including a defined percentage of social housing, needs to be sorted, not just for now but for the foreseeable future. This does not mean nationalisation or other such blanket controls, it needs proper initiatives with proper rewards, to encourage development and if necessary the enforced release of land, where ever and when ever its required. In theory this should exist at the moment, but it doesn't too many people can duck and dive, ignore the realities, espouse to much NIMBY freedom, etc.
Get this one thing done properly and any Government (left or right )that achieves success will go down in the annals as a great reforming Government.
Educate, House and provide free Health to all your people, what could be more left wing than that? Would a future Labour Manifesto be prepared to be single-minded and make this the 'big one'?
Have you considered that it might be because you're either unwilling or unable to provide them?There is a difference between left leaning and 'loony left'.
A 'loony left' Government would never get elected. I am certainly not terrified by to-days 'loony left' they couldn't find their way out of a paper bag... that is if they could agree what should constitute a 'paper bag' in the first place!
Notice you've given up on wanting to know the specifics
The 'loony' bit!
Oh dear late comer to the party... re read posts about Education Act and NHS