Oh right, yeah that's what it looks like but I didn't see it in real time so thanks for clearing it up
8
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 31
- Goals
- 6
- Assists
- 12
- Yellow cards
- 7
- Red cards
- 3
Oh right, yeah that's what it looks like but I didn't see it in real time so thanks for clearing it up
Everybody who criticizes him is either clueless or a hater in the eyes of his most vocal fans on here. Don't fight it, there is nothing to win.
To your points, if the last match is the start of a trend, then great and we will gladly keep him the team (lets face it, with the new contract, he isn't going anywhere anyway) and get really good performances from him. But regardless of how well he played on the weekend, a well run club needs to plan ahead and keep players age in mind. Again IF this is the beginning of a trend then great, the need to add something to squad in his position isn't as big as many of us thought until, well last Saturday, but given how important the position is, will have to be adressed rather sooner than later.
Thank god you added the thing with the respect
Everybody who criticizes him is either clueless or a hater in the eyes of his most vocal fans on here. Don't fight it, there is nothing to win.
To your points, if the last match is the start of a trend, then great and we will gladly keep him the team (lets face it, with the new contract, he isn't going anywhere anyway) and get really good performances from him. But regardless of how well he played on the weekend, a well run club needs to plan ahead and keep players age in mind. Again IF this is the beginning of a trend then great, the need to add something to squad in his position isn't as big as many of us thought until, well last Saturday, but given how important the position is, will have to be adressed rather sooner than later.
Thank god you added the thing with the respect
If you honestly think the game against Liverpool was the one and only time he's played that well this season (never mind ever) well then... if the cap fits...
Liked that he talked about how he needed to take more responsibility in the first half to not play some of the passes in certain phases of the game in order to retain better control and not give teams opportunities to break.
Team will feed off Bruno, if he is helter skelter, they will be as well, when he is in control, team will follow suit and maybe with Amorin demanding more control in games, he finally realizes his importance to it.
Team will feed off Bruno, if he is helter skelter, they will be as well, when he is in control, team will follow suit and maybe with Amorin demanding more control in games, he finally realizes his importance to it.
I honestly think he didn't play this good for quite a while. He was good in the FA Cup final, but it was a good Bruno performance in terms of what we know of him. Against Liverpool, he showed elements to his game and a level of calm and that in a high-pressure environment. That is a new high for me. I don't know what it means, maybe our plan just worked really well. Maybe Pools plan backfired. Maybe we raised our game due to the occasion. Lets see how it goes forward. And when he keeps that level of team play, calm head, I'll be the last to criticize him, but I think it is disingenious to suggest that this was just another good game in long list of recent good games. It wasn't. The last bad game isn't even 2 weeks in the past.
Lets face it, we'll never agree on the exact extent of "how good was he", but I think it is a bit laughable to suggest, that this can tell you something about whatever clues I might have or what my intentions I have when posting. And this applies to every poster on here.
Well said. I am pretty sure, this is what everybody hopes for. Difference between posters is the level of believe they have that he will reach that objective.
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Look at that, another post, another proof for my obvious hate campaign within this thread.
Unfortunately that seems to be a large %
Are you the one crying like a little girl here cause people praised one of his assists last year because you are convinced it was by mistake?
This video is a fantastic breakdown on how fantastic Bruno is and how he really unlocked our team against Liverpool.
I have to warn that if you really dislike Bruno you will not like this video, if you hate Højlund as well you will most likely despise it.
I have to warn that if you really dislike Bruno you will not like this video, if you hate Højlund as well you will most likely despise it.
I remember debating such a topic but I can't find which game it was... It wasn't the FA Cup game with Brunos assist to Mainoo. From the back of my mind I'd say it was a McTominay goal but not sure. Can you remember which goal it was?Are you the one crying like a little girl here cause people praised one of his assists last year because you are convinced it was by mistake?
Find it so funny, he's had a great game against Liverpool and all of a sudden he's back to being an incredible player. How about he does that consistently for a change? This season he's been shocking, let's hope the Liverpool game can be the kickstarter instead of being a one off and back to trash against Arsenal
It wasn't a question of having a great or a bad game.
Bruno even on a bad game cares, tries, at least mostly.
It was more of the TYPE of perfomance: he played more composed, more calm and with the necesary quote of urgency in some of his interventions that are his trademark. The think it's that he balanced those different situations in a way he does not typically does it during an entire match (this is key). That it's what it was so cool of his last game, more with such a rival.
In any case, the team itself looked more balanced, agressive, not that chaotic and that helps a lot to EVERYONE.
Many players have been having "mistakes" more due to the whole enssemble leaking at some moments, producing a domino effect, than mere individual quality.
Hopefully this is a good starting point, thought it happened before and the page wasn't turned, yet in other great matches, it was more rock and roll and this was a more mixed style and that includes Bruno and his more patient apporach, without turning into just tidy.
At least this time many of the payers showed the face of their best versions and some like Bruno even adding a layer that it's not new, not entirely alien to him, yet he tends to have a hard time to mantein during a game, that was very very positive from him.
And nope, it's not a sheet of his stats, it's sthg that it's witness watching him play. Someone might show some sheet with similar stats in the past and yet would not show how he actually delivered those, how he actually played.
Bruno even on a bad game cares, tries, at least mostly.
It was more of the TYPE of perfomance: he played more composed, more calm and with the necesary quote of urgency in some of his interventions that are his trademark. The think it's that he balanced those different situations in a way he does not typically does it during an entire match (this is key). That it's what it was so cool of his last game, more with such a rival.
In any case, the team itself looked more balanced, agressive, not that chaotic and that helps a lot to EVERYONE.
Many players have been having "mistakes" more due to the whole enssemble leaking at some moments, producing a domino effect, than mere individual quality.
Hopefully this is a good starting point, thought it happened before and the page wasn't turned, yet in other great matches, it was more rock and roll and this was a more mixed style and that includes Bruno and his more patient apporach, without turning into just tidy.
At least this time many of the payers showed the face of their best versions and some like Bruno even adding a layer that it's not new, not entirely alien to him, yet he tends to have a hard time to mantein during a game, that was very very positive from him.
And nope, it's not a sheet of his stats, it's sthg that it's witness watching him play. Someone might show some sheet with similar stats in the past and yet would not show how he actually delivered those, how he actually played.
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The reality is, when you build championship clubs there is a proven recipe. First and foremost, you need to have players with a drive to win who will sacrifice for the team. This was paramount through the Manchester United productive years.
I can say I have had teams with the highest skill levels for their age, however, without the character and a little sandpaper in the game we were not able to win championships until that changed. In fact we were beaten one year by a team who had half as much skill yet had a couple of players who would go through walls to win. Luckily I was able to land a few of them and voila, disappointments turned into championships. I don't see it in this team, I don't see it in their Captain who should be setting the tone.
They were decent Sunday, I thought they deserved the win, my concern now, is that a one off like a few weeks ago or can they build momentum. Regardless, the United mantra has always been on the front foot, driving to win, producing goals and accepting nothing else.
Moyes came in and tried to change a championship teams way of playing, trying to focus on defense, which is like driving a Lambo on the highway at 80 klm an hr. From that point individuals were paid millions to improve the team and they have gone backwards almost every year. Then to have the team we see today, which I will say again is the worst in 40 yrs + proves a level of incompetence, ignorance at the management level and that is frustrating.
My comments are not so much negative, but reality. Garbage with a nice paint job is still garbage. I get frustrated as well when individuals try to look at everything with rose coloured glasses. Anyhow, no disrespect intended. I read these stats on Fernandes and it really plays to how poor the team is or they are inflated by his cheering section.
Gotta love it, so your saying if people disagree with you they are an element of a clueless fanbase? I would be more incline to state that those who think an avg player should be inflated to star status are a better fit for clueless. His stats for Euro 2024 pretty much play to what he is. The most revealing, of 7 tackles, won 1 and lost 6.
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Fair enough, and apologies if I've come across as a bit of a jackass on the topic.
Re-read my post. Pay attention to the word “extreme”.
Trying to criticise Bruno for not making enough tackles wouldn’t fit the definition of extreme criticism. But it is silly. Look at the same stats over the course of his career. And compare them with other players that play the same role. He’s on the 90th centile. Calling him “average” is equally daft.
No need to back track, this is the guy who says Bruno belongs in the MLS.
Ah. Ok. Well then. That ticks all the boxes for clueless.
People have tried this before where he has been compared to similar players, but somehow people don't want to change their opinion. Bruno's isn't disposessed more than similar players; his passing isn't more erratic, and he doesn't lose every tackle he engages in, like some would argue. According to stats, he's a very good and expansive passer; he works his socks off every game, wins the ball back more than players in a similar position and manages to come up with similar or better stats for goals and assists whilst playing in a far inferior team.
Stats are funny though - some years back posters argued that Carrick only had a high passing completion rate because all of his passes were sideways or backwards, but I think stats showed he played more forward passes than Xavi - not arguing he was a more expansive passer than Xavi, but still. People still won't change their mind.
The eye test would confirm that Bruno is a very good passer - he is a very expansive passer; some of those don't come off, sometimes due to a poor pass, but also sometimes due to a misunderstanding or sometimes down to a terrible run and decision making from a teammate.
Anyone arguing he doesn't work hard are taking the piss, but they do exist. Bruno regularly covers the most distance, and also regularly he wins the ball back deep into his own half. He's not great at defending, but sometimes just being there and getting a toe to the ball is enough to disrupt the flow from the attacking team.
He's a brilliant player, and in a better team where other players than him create more chances and manage to score, he would have even greater numbers, and he probably wouldn't have the responsibility of having to create everything for the team. United are currently quite useless without him.
I feel like this isn't talked about enough. And it makes pass accuracy one of the least useful stats.
Not to mention confirmation bias and human nature (we remember negatives more than positives). If your mind is set on a player being wasteful and you watch every game he plays, then you're hardly gonna see anything other than the misplaced passes.
Hell, I watch maybe 4 or 5 Arsenal games per year as it's not my team, but I can still vividly remember multiple shocking passes from Ødegaard (who I rate very highly) that lead to the opposing team scoring. And he has the best overall pass accuracy out of his comparable peers (Bruno, Palmer, De Bruyne etc). Even the best passers make huge blunders damn near every game. People can whine all they want about pass accuracy, but you can't eliminate risk entirely from your game if you hope to win anything big.
Re eye test/good passer - passing, specifically longer passing is Bruno's huge weakness, I think it's human nature to remember the good ones that come off and forget those that don't but his average for completed passes at United is barely about 50%. For some context Pogba sat around 72%, Kroos is 75%, Modric is 74%. This is where the comparisons with De Bruyne are more accurate as both get overrated for their longer passing - because they can find these unbelievable assists now and then that we remember but actually lose the ball way more than we think (KDB is like 56%). Part of this is tactical of course, some players are encouraged to try it more than others but we can draw some thoughts given the big drop off in numbers compared to the very best around. Where Bruno is elite is around the box, playing the clever little passes that few players see, his assist to Mainoo in the FA cup final, the assist for Martinez the other day.
Not sure this is the right approach here. Even if Bruno would lose the ball more often, it wouldn't automatically make him a bad player per se, because it really depends on the role he has within the team. It was always a bad idea to bring his pass completion stat into the debate because it doesn't really help any side of the argument. Because yes, an attacking midfielder is supposed to attempt riskier passes than for example a CB. But at the same time, you can make 4 key passes that your team mates squander but you'll get flack for the one misplaced pass that led to a goal. Lets look at a few stats and lets see, which narrative I can create, when I want to
| Player | Passes Attempted per 90 | Long Passes Attempted per 90 | Take ons attempted (successful take ons) | Dispossessed | Errors (leading to shots) | Passes blocked |
| Bruno (3413minutes) | 62.63 (75%) | 10.5 (54%) | 1.53 (0.66) | 1.11 | 0.05 | 1.77 |
| De Bruyne (2388minutes) | 71.80 (75%) | 9.08 (50%) | 2.19 (0.75) | 1.70 | 0.04 | 2.26 |
| Odegard (3152minutes) | 56.19 (84%) | 3.7 (64%) | 2.46 (1.46) | 1.91 | 0.00 | 1.03 |
| Maddison (2695minutes) | 64.72 (81%) | 7.6 (47%) | 3.44 (1.5) | 1.34 | 0.00 | 1.24 |
| Guimaraes (3335minutes) | 55.21 (82.4%) | 6.64 (58.5%) | 3.35 (1.62) | 2.48 | 0.05 | 1.03 |
He is 2nd in this group for attempted passes but joined last for completion, he attempts the most long passes and only completes slightly more than half of them, he takes on the least amount of players but is dispossessed more often than one could expect, given that the other players attempt (way) more takeons than him. He is right up there with Errors leading to shots and he and De Bruyne are up there in terms of passes blocked.
(all data is from fbref advanced scouting report, based on the last 365 days, percentiles aren't really useful here as not all players are compared into the same category, even though Bruno is deployed as midfielder, in terms of percentiles, he is only compared to Attacking midfielders and wingers, De Bruyne and Maddison can be viewed as that OR as midfielders, for Odegard and Guimaraes they can only be viewed as midfielders)
In isolation nothing of those things make him a bad player. He takes on risks and we want him to do it.
BUT
a) we don't want him to do it all the time and
b) we don't want him to do it at the same rate when he fills a midfield position.
And no, this isn't a crazy expectation, even Ruben said something along those lines and against Liverpool, we saw him keeping it in check in an almost unfamiliar way.
Nobody doesn't want him to take risks. What people get frustrated with is the impression, that there are phases during games, where it seems he is pure instinct and no thinking at all. And while that is fine here and there, with Bruno it happened on a regular basis. And for all the good things he does to the team, those turnovers can be a negative. And we can discuss into eternity about whether that negative is outweighed by all the positives, thats a valid discussion. But I sometimes get the feel that his fans deny those negative effects alltogether.
I am not aware of reading something like that. I know I said that for all his busy-ness, there are times where there isn't really much output but I can't remember anybody questioning his workrate.
Sounds good but at the end of the day, it is one opinion of many possible opinions. You could just as well say that Brunos numbers are as good as they are because at United, everything is channeled through him. We'll never know what assumption holds more "truth", with the most likely factor to sway ones opinion is that ones general stance towards the player in the first place.
But on the last sentence, no question, this United team is quite useless without him. But this is an issue we shouldn't just adress my playing him as much as possible. Hopefully.
I think the last one to bring such numbers is yourself, but we will make sure to remind you that those stats are one of the least useful stats next time you do it.
But conformation bias and human nature apply to both sides of the argument, which makes this argument worthless. Except the assumption is that it is only the others who fell victim to their bias's.
No question about it, but not every team is starting from the same starting positions. If your defence is solid then you should take different risks than when it is shaky. When your team is athletic and fit, risks are easier handled than when your team isn't all these things. That is my personal main issue with Bruno at United, I can live with him being on the pitch as I know about the obvious upsides. I am starting to struggle when I see him being deployed in the heart of midfield often with next to nobody but the defence behind him.
I think he is pretty damn good at finding runners with his vision and fast execution. I think he is a very instinctive footballer that is able to create fantastic moments. But in times where so many teams are as organised as our rivals and as we aspire to be as well, players need to find a way to control their instincts to a degree. Which is something I don't consider Bruno to be pretty good in. Whether thats down to instructions or ability, I don't know, I just think that there isn't much that indicates that he can be just as good in a an organized environment as he can be when it gets frantic and chaotic. Other than belief and optimism of course
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Exactly, and last game was really great because he played with more measure, because he was very vertical, yet not constantly and the whole team helped him playing with lots of anticipation and solidarity, that helps (Bruno or whomever) when things does not work.
Have condensed to save thread.
I'm not sure what narratives you're referring to, my point was simply as a long passer he has never been elite. I don't think Bruno G is very apt comparison given their different roles but the others are fair. He is instinctive and is a good player but he's not got the consistency to be playing longer balls as frequently as he does in my opinion, even looking outside of the names above, Gibbs White's long ball completion is 63.5% with 3.5 a game, McGinn's is 68.5% with 3.8 a game. It's as much about keeping a cool head as technical ability, there's always some kind of longer ball on to all these players but it's about picking the sensible times to be direct. I think we're all for risk near the opponents goal and him doing what he's good at, which is basically how he played vs Pool albeit few teams will give him the space in that area that TAA did, but it's just about reigning in the longer balls in my opinion.
About the narratives: this was more towards the other poster and actually not meant as a dig at the player. Just showing that stats aren't telling one story, but they offer multiple takes or spins if you will.
Long balls: I agree with your take, just responded due to you saying he is best with his short passes. I think, he is pretty good with long passes too, but as you said, he might be attempting them too often when they aren't on. I guess, that is also one factor why Brunos completion rate is rather low, he is often attempting long balls in behind, which are more likely to be caught by CBs than long balls or switches in the buildup. I included Bruno G because I thought it make sense to add somebody who I thought is regarded as more of a midfielder to have some stats for comparison and because many on here see Bruno as CM player, which I don't agree with. I think, his off-the-ball contribution is good for an attacking midfielder but they aren't up to standard as a CM.
about condensing and save threads: not sure, what this means. Don't think my post was confrontational other than maybe a little towards a poster who has me on ignore apparently anyways. It's still a save thread
Ok coll, yeah I think that's fair.
I meant I just condensed the quoted reply and cut out some of it to save space. nothing else meant by that.
This is what kills me, the "know it all's" totally misread everything and fail to recognize reality. Not making enough tackles? Wrong Einstein, more to the point of not winning enough tackles. If you don't see how easily he is taken off the ball game in and game out, well not much I can say. He usually starts his game off either being out muscled or out maneuvered. Well deserving of the armband, really sets the tone and culture of the team.
Since SAF retired, I think Bruno and De Gea have been our two best players by quite a distance. I'd also wager they're our two most criticized players over the same time span.
People are weird.
So you're saying you weren't convinced by the sample size of 7 tackles at an international tournament?
People are weird.
So you're saying you weren't convinced by the sample size of 7 tackles at an international tournament?
Hey man, not at all, fair banter. We are passionate about our club. I enjoy the discussions and really love to read the tactical guys break downs. I will always be a student of the game and you actually learn some things perhaps not thought of. I will tell you in the odd email I still have with Rene Mulensteen about certain things, I will always prefer the 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 to anything they throw out today. People say it is an antique system, but man it is simple to teach, easy to master and with the right players it never fails. The 2 up top are key and play off each other. Move the ball up the sides and easily into the middle. There is just so much that works especially when you have speed. I love to win and hate to lose. With teams I had and also in businesses I have run, that sets the culture, it is contagious. As a coach never accept losing, never say sorry, have an ego and never admit mistakes except to yourself. Have a very thick skin. Cause buddy, every time you lose its your fault.
The stats I’m referring to are successful tackles. And I wouldn’t go calling anyone Einstein if you seriously think Bruno Fernandes belongs in the MSL.
Again you miss the point, its not about the sample size, its about how you do in the international stage against the best players. Forget the 7 tackles, meaningless, key on the W v L. He won a single tackle. The guy is an offensive forward, he is not there to defend and low tackle numbers makes sense. He gets paid money to have the ball and get it back when he loses it, and he loses it often. Then to only win a single tackle says it all.
I can note a lot of players who have been more meaningful outside of Bruno's first season since SAF left. Sure he had some good games, I will not deny that. However at this point being the best player on a poor team is an avg player on a good team. Say what you will, I will stand by that and a lot of other people who know a heck of a lot more than me about the game agree.
Run the stats between he and Rooney, Keane, Scholes, Giggs or any guy who has played a like position with the squad. As I mentioned prior, yr 1 he was good. There has been a slow decline since then. He is not up to the former standard or expectation at Manchester United.
I will say his overall minutes are very high, so it could be a little burnout, but at this point, with a value of 60 mil after paying 65 mil for him, if they do not see he has peaked out and time to sell, it will be another glaring loss to pile on the others.
Never understand ‘been our best player’ comments. Hes had majority periods of poor performance. Every season after 18 month.
Sunday was best performance in long time, for me it what should expect from player on Bruno wage every game. Because for his upsides there are also downside even in good performance.
Even Sunday he almost cost us game towards end twice in a minute. First he let fullback walk past him and almost score. Then from next corner let Mac Allister walk off him at front post to flick on to VVD who nearly score. It’s not good enough even though overall game was good.
Bruno is type of personality that many like, passionate, running but is also self-serving. Many are blinded by his traits they like. Critic others for same things and ignore when Bruno. Bruno will get credit in poor game because assist, where others will play well in game and get criticise for letting player run off them once…by same poster.
At 31 time is coming to move on. This period of time has been one of the worst for United and Bruno has many more poor performance than good last four years. Overall he’s been good player but no more than that, often he’s been terrible sometimes sublime.
Sunday was best performance in long time, for me it what should expect from player on Bruno wage every game. Because for his upsides there are also downside even in good performance.
Even Sunday he almost cost us game towards end twice in a minute. First he let fullback walk past him and almost score. Then from next corner let Mac Allister walk off him at front post to flick on to VVD who nearly score. It’s not good enough even though overall game was good.
Bruno is type of personality that many like, passionate, running but is also self-serving. Many are blinded by his traits they like. Critic others for same things and ignore when Bruno. Bruno will get credit in poor game because assist, where others will play well in game and get criticise for letting player run off them once…by same poster.
At 31 time is coming to move on. This period of time has been one of the worst for United and Bruno has many more poor performance than good last four years. Overall he’s been good player but no more than that, often he’s been terrible sometimes sublime.
This is like Souness saying "you expect 4 assists a game from a 100m player". He is obviously not going to play like that every game when so many of his teammates are well below par.
All of the best midfielders get dribbled past occasionally. For Bruno to get skinned once in an otherwise flawless performance, and for you to say that it wasn't good enough, feels like nitpicking.
Players should be perfect though, didn't you know!? But yeh, I think when you read 'Bruno has many more poor performance than good last four years' it probably tells you all you need to know about a poster.
Within 30 seconds Mac Allister walked off him for header too.
He should be responsible for his performance. Stop blaming others.
As for other poster…Good game Sunday. Look back over performance threads if you want to justify saying I’m wrong.
I'll go with having watched the games myself, thanks. And to say he's had 'many more poor performance than good last four years' is ridiculous, with respect, and makes me think you've not been watching us.
People see matches in different ways though. Also they value things not in the same way, for some whining is a deal breaker, for some an assist outshines everything else. Some people consider a lobbed pass in behind magnifico, other people people consider a misplaced pass under no pressure on the halfway line a huge mistake. There is not one correct way to feel about things and thats something we should all remind ourselves when making a post. Some people will want to call him a legend, other people think he is the biggest hindrance towards us becoming a title contender. It's all just opinions about fecking football.
Thats the thing of this thread, sides have become so entrenched that they tend to not discuss the things on the pitch but attack other posters. Look how fast you are with "tells you all you need to know about this poster" and look at me feeling the need to type this post - it is the same stuff, feeling triggered by what we consider to be the wrong opinion. Just lets try to not get personal.
At the end of the day, we all want to see United being successful again by playing attractive football. Bruno can help with both but an overreliance on one player is never good, he doesn't get younger and he also has some characteristics that don't help with that. Both is true, no one is a hater by just pointing it out and no one is shortsighted for appreciating his keypasses.
So let's just ignore all context then? Every top player at a mid table club should be responsible for dragging their average teammates to league titles otherwise they're not good enough in your book?
Sorry, but to say he's had more bad games than good over the past four years is ridiculous and an opinion that doesn't merit serious consideration.