What? He's almost always the best player. The team is performing worse than they should because of the last two managers, no idea who in their right mind thought Martinez would be the man to take this Portuguese Golden generation to the next level.
8
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 44
- Goals
- 12
- Assists
- 16
- Yellow cards
- 9
- Red cards
- 3
God I love him.
All I know is we are terrible and when he doesn’t play for us we are extra extra terrible. He’s so important to this team and deserves better players around him.
I don't think I've seen anybody in here is denying that. No issue with accepting it from my side given that "being Uniteds best player in the last 5 years" doesn't have any meaning at all it is one of the most cheapest compliments to hand out.
The point that he is the main reason is obviously BS but your conclusion that it must mean that with just simply taking him out we'd automatically get better is a bit of a detraction. The point many people in here made was that if we had a player without Brunos weaknesses and with maybe just 80-85% of his ability, we potentially wouldn't be a worse team, potentially slightly better and probably more balanced. Those points have shifted (in my opinion at least) a bit in the last year as Brunos role changed and his age took some options off the table anyways.
No reasonable person says that Bruno is the sole reason we generally lose midfield battles, look uncomfortable on the ball and never really take control but excluding him from that issue doesn't make no sense as well and this is what it sounds like when he praised to the heavens in here with people feeling genuinely desperate about him having to play with his teammates. He is one of the constants in our midfield since years and while that negative trend started under Mourinho, it certainly didn't took a good bounce in the right direction since then. A cynic might say that Bruno ability to come up with moments keeps a ship afloat, that is maybe better off sinking alltogether for the decision makers to finally do something. But here we are. And all it takes is a direct freekick over a mistakenly placed wall and with a questionable placed keeper for people to cream themselves and acting as if we weren't the ones who surrendered the initiaitve and ball to Arsenal for the majority of the game.
People will look at games like last weekend or the FA Cup final and telling themselves that if Bruno can play in those situations he must be able to do it in different conditions as well but it is easy to look formidable defensively when all your team mates are close to you. But that can't be the way we want to play on a constant basis, can't it?
Obviously this is nonsense and never have I seen this point being made in here. It is a reduction of what was said for you to have an easy thing to argue against.
Come on mate, you know it would be rather 60-80! Thats a blatant showing of disrespect for our captain.
Well it is a discussion board, so differing opinions and all that.
So Kane wasn't very good because he was in an underwhelming Spurs side yet was their best player?
Van Persie wasn't very good because he was in an underwhelming Arsenal side?
Shearer wasn't very good as he was in an underwhelming Newcastle side....etc etc
Players can be quality yet play for underwhelming sides you know, there's ten other players plus a manager that needs to also be half decent.
Rare clip of him when he was 18
Mate, if the discussions around here or in his ungodly legend thread would be around whether he is a very good player or not, then it would be not even be half as contested. I am sure, the absolute majority would stand behind such a statement. The conflicts arise when stuff is about "best" and "legend" and "sad for him that he wasted his best years" and "every criticism has to be answered with questioning motives". At this point every mention of his weaknesses is answered with the exact same post sequence "always available", "bestest chance creator", "best player United has", "only player with actual output". As if any United fan wouldn't have noticed that by now. And for a while, those things don't even just fly when criticism is around, sometimes it is enough when the exact level of praise isn't met.
Hopefully you'll get another one this Thanksgiving too!I believe @Scandi Red said it at some point last season (RIP Jeppers, zaafi) but this thread can really make you question your own sanity at times
The mental gymnastics to try to justify why he’s not a world class player in this thread from fellow United fans is both hilarious and baffling.
Best player of the post SAF era and it’s not even close. Enjoy him whilst he’s here, Reds!
The mental gymnastics to try to justify why he’s not a world class player in this thread from fellow United fans is both hilarious and baffling.
Best player of the post SAF era and it’s not even close. Enjoy him whilst he’s here, Reds!
I've so much respect for how he's changed his game to help the team. I really didn't think he could play the metronome but his ability to beat a press and general quickness has improved at 30 years of age. I'm stunned by it.
Ronaldo too and that coincided with one of his worst periods
Unfortunately, the fanbase will only enjoy him when he's gone. When they put the nostalgia goggles on.
Says the guy that was salty because Bruno made that backheel assist that one time and people praised him for his vision.
Yeah this thread and his legend thread is certainly a testament of how little enjoyment "the fanbase" has with him
Thank god for brave and honest fighters like you, to steer the blind masses in the right directionThats living rent-free in your head, isn't it?
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Please stop with the sarcasm, it's not actually smart or intelligent.Yeah this thread and his legend thread is certainly a testament of how little enjoyment "the fanbase" has with him
Thats living rent-free in your head, isn't it?
I think he's a good player with extreme highs and lows but I'm not sure I'd label him world class, I don't think that's a big crime or you'd need to do any kind of mental gymnastics to argue that?
Noted.
Sometimes I get the feeling that he is only just hitting his prime, but then at other times I’m not so sure. Maybe if we can build a better team, we could actually see him get even better.
He’s been best in class for five years in his position, yes it feels like mental gymnastics to say “he is a good player with extreme highs and lows”, unless you’re assessing him on a minute by minute basis instead of over the course of a season or his United career as a whole.
I find that an odd take, I only really judge season by season. I'm not sure how it would be useful to judge minute by minute or how that would even happen?
But, using your own words, where I disagree is how is the below 'best in class'? This is non penalty goals FYI + I have put some direct comparisons for each season in for context from the PL. There are other players higher on the G+A but I am trying to only use 'AM's' to be fair so someone like Palmer though he has a lot of freedom I would not put in.
| 24/25 | 4 | 7 | 12 G+A Damsgaard |
| 23/24 | 6 | 8 | 16 G+A Odegaard, 14 G+A Gibbs White |
| 22/23 | 6 | 8 | 22 G+ A Odegaard, 18 G+A Maddison |
| 21/22 | 10 | 6 | 20 G+A Maddison, 23 G+A KDB |
| 20/21 | 9 | 11 | Best in class this year I think. |
| 19/20 | 4 | 7 | 33 G+A KDB |
This isn't getting into the nuanced discussion of his role, which in his best years was only really comparable to KDB's more free role at City, or all the pros vs cons of these players. But world class, for me at least, is about consistency and the only world class player on this list is KDB. It's also worth saying many of these other players aren't on corners.
For example, Bruno has taken 68 corners this season according to statmuse, KDB (61),Maddison (56) and Damsgaard (44) have taken less and Odegaard and Gibbs White are either too low to register or haven't taken any.
This doesn't mean he's not a good player - I am a fan of his despite what I see as quite volatile form - and it's easy to say he's our best post SAF transfer and current 'best' player but that doesn't mean he is world class. Not sure how much gymnastics you would consider is being done here? Seems fair to me.
I think the other poster's point was that he doesn't demonstrate extreme highs and lows, unless you're looking at it on a minute by minute basis. He's actually remarkably consistent over the seasons, as your stats above show.
Extreme highs and lows is also going to be an opinion heavily biased towards our own players. I read somewhere recently that Arsenal fans are getting annoyed about Odegaard's (lack of) consistency but I wouldn't have had a clue that this is an issue because 90% of the time I watch him is during match highlights, where he comes across as consistently extremely consistent and productive. His off days just aren't on my radar.
It was quite clearly that he is 'best in class in his position for 5 years' not simply his form is consistent.
I'd agree he's been consistently good for us season after season, 'good' is not world class though.
Consistently good. Periodically world class.
For the first 18 months he was world class. 65 GA in 81 apps is pretty insane, even if you remove the penalties. Since then he's had a couple of shorter world class spells (and singular games of course).
Overall I'd say he's the second best AM in the PL from the last 10 years. Palmer and Ødegaard can surpass him of course, but I'm not sure if I'd put my money on it.
My issue with this i.e. saying this specific 18 month period he was world class (not that I disagree it was a great period albeit a decent chunk are penos) is then you are automatically saying Maddison was world class at Leicester, for example, Odegaard was world class for the two seasons before this one and so on and so forth. For me you need a longer period, something like 5 years which was the initial time mentioned in the post I responded to. The reality is we simply haven't really had any of the 'best in class' players for a while, maybe DDG in his pomp pre WC18 was arguably second behind Neuer for a while.
All subjective I guess, but my hope is Bruno gets to have a Robson like end to his career here where he is the older part of the new build of United, gets a major trophy with us and becomes more of a legend - I also think now with Amorim his stats will naturally struggle to hit the numbers he did when in Ole's system, but he can be a key part of this team from a bit deeper on the pitch.
So worldclass five years ago.
Thats called form, isn't it.
I'd probably agree with that. I think though, player development shifted to a degree since then (started even earlier). I mean, there aren't really many pure AMs like Bruno around, Musiala, Wirtz, Bellingham, MGW, Guimaraes, Pedri have very different skillsets. All with heavy emphasis on dealing with opposition press.
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Would be more of what I think about worldclass as well. A year can be form, 2 years is very good and 3-4 years to confirm that the player can hold a very high level.
The term is tricky and subjective of course. I think, some people use it as high form of praise rather than descriptive.
This would be a very positive outlook but I personally struggle to see it. I honestly don't know what people see in him in midfield. I mean, he obviously is needed there or somewhere in the team right now and he's doing fine in some environments but at the end of the day, he is a rather weak AM playing in CM with all the pros and cons it gives you. I think, we need to bring in a partner for Ugarte who combines some of Brunos passing with better carrying and better evade-the-press abilities and some of Ugartes against the ball skills. Then Bruno can move forward with no issues in my eyes, we only have to make sure, that he is playing on a side with a very capable wing back, that can create room for him. Amorims system is described as favoring types that can move into space with the ball and that isn't Brunos game but I think, he is more likely to figure out something in areas where he is close to opposition goal than trying to restrict him deeper in midfield, that emphasizes his weaknesses a lot and takes away his his strength.
I think, the most crucial part of Brunos career from now on will be whether we can provide other players to step up. Be that acquisitions or existing players like Amad did a little bit earlier this season. As long as it will be Bruno only, for whatever reason, we aren't going to go forward as a team.
The term "world class" has always been heavily debated. Is it based on overall output? Is one season of world class form enough? What about players who are consistently one of the best for many years, but never the best?
Some would argue that Rooney never was world class (not even in 2009-10). But is that fair? He makes a lot of people's PL All-Time XI, ahead of players like Shearer, Cole, Ruud, Aguero, Suarez and Kane.
Bruno has consistently been a top 3 (usually best or second best) AM in the PL for more than half a decade (and counting). And one of the players ahead of him, De Bruyne, is probably in the PL All-Time XI. We can discuss semantics, but to me this has serious "world class" energy.
With Rooney though anyone who watched football could see he was levels above - what couldn't the guy do? What kind of goals or passes couldn't he score/make? I've literally never heard anyone say he wasn't world class, I've heard people put him behind Henry, Shearer etc. (never Aguero ffs) but then that's comparing the best of the best.
Re claim best or second best AM, firstly how many are there? Most teams don't really play with one as we think of his old role, so how many is he compared to Maddison, KDB and Odegaard? Then add in we're not including the wider attackers who kind of play a winger/10 like Mount (20+ G+A in a season at Chelsea) so if you're second or third in a group of 4 players, it is important context? He's definitely one of the best AMs in the last 5 years, that's true, but, again, my response was to someone saying it's mental gymnastics to not think he's world class.
I am a dreamer NZT, let me dream. I have always thought he should be in the CM as he's got older and the reality is we're not assembling a team to win the title this year or the next, so I think he's good enough to be part of a team that is chasing the top 4 as a CM. I did hope Amorim would tweak his system and put Bruno back in a freer role behind the CF as a short term fix as we know he is very effective in that kind of position, but in the system we now play he kind of has to be CM longer term I think.
I’ve seen many people on this very forum claim Rooney wasn’t world class, which is ridiculous, in my opinion.
But that's kind of the issue with the world class debate. It's hard to come up with a clear rule. Fergie has the strictest definition I've seen ("I only coached 4 world class players; Cantona, Giggs, Scholes, Ronaldo"). And on the other end of the spectrum you have those who think being top 3 in your position is sufficient, which leads to some hilarious examples particularly in the fullback positions.
Well, I would count second strikers and CMs with lots of creative/attacking responsibilities as AMs too, but I don't want to have another discussion of semantics. All in all I would say that Bruno is second best attacking/creative central midfielder of the last 10 years.
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I think that Bruno post 2020-21 is so underrated in here (not by you specifically).
2021-22:
- 24 non-penalty G/A
- 1 game missed due to injuries
- 2.5 tackles/interceptions per game (very high for his position)
2022-23:
- 24 non-penalty G/A (28 with penalties)
- 0 games missed due to injuries
- 2.5 tackles/interceptions per game
2023-24:
- 22 non-penalty G/A (28 with penalties)
- 2 games missed due to injuries
- 2.7 tackles/interceptions per game
- United POTY
- Became club captain
2024-25 so far:
- 22 non-penalty G/A (25 with penalties)
- 0 games missed due to injuries
- 3 tackles/interceptions per game
- Still club captain
- Most likely POTY
For comparison: Ødegaard had 22 non-penalty G/A in his most productive season for Arsenal. And he makes less than half the number of tackles and interceptions.
- 24 non-penalty G/A
- 1 game missed due to injuries
- 2.5 tackles/interceptions per game (very high for his position)
2022-23:
- 24 non-penalty G/A (28 with penalties)
- 0 games missed due to injuries
- 2.5 tackles/interceptions per game
2023-24:
- 22 non-penalty G/A (28 with penalties)
- 2 games missed due to injuries
- 2.7 tackles/interceptions per game
- United POTY
- Became club captain
2024-25 so far:
- 22 non-penalty G/A (25 with penalties)
- 0 games missed due to injuries
- 3 tackles/interceptions per game
- Still club captain
- Most likely POTY
For comparison: Ødegaard had 22 non-penalty G/A in his most productive season for Arsenal. And he makes less than half the number of tackles and interceptions.
I can accept that people don't think that Bruno is world class. The term is too subjective anyways. But when you have an attacking midfielder who
- Averages 26 or 27 non-penalty G/A per season/year
- Consistently is near the top of European chance creation stats
- Wins United POTY for 3 out of 5 season (likely 4 in 6)
- Practically never gets injuried
- Has 2-3x the normal defensive contribution
- Works incredibly hard
- Is a good leader (too many stories now)
... then it's not so strange that people use the term "world class" to describe him. Personally I haven't made up my mind on the matter as I don't know where to draw the line. But I do know that if he falls short, then he's not very far off either.
The top, cream of the crop midfielders adapt to deeper more controlling roles as they get older. That is what seperates the likes of Modric, Xavi, Pirlo, Scholes from the rest, its all about very high footballing IQ.
True.
And while Bruno of course is not as good as the players you mentioned, one has to be impressed when you compare the extreme difference in team quality. Those 4 were surrounded by some of the best players in history. But Bruno has largely been alone.
I guess we'll have to see how things are going. System and formation wise especially. I think, he'd have more space in one of the 10 spots than he would have as a midfielder where even now we see opposition teams blocking routes to him. The creation from deep is more on the CBs from what I understood.
Those numbers don't check out with the ones you provided.
I think, this here is one of the most contested points on here. In terms of what this means. But no doubt, he is productive and I am not going to go there again.
Looking back to the greats and worldclass players, are their injury records still in peoples minds? I mean, obviously for guys like Adriano or Recoba or a few else that were simply dragged down by it but for most people who are world class, I don't think the topic of injuries and defensive contribution do get a lot of attention for attackers. R9 was pretty injury prone and it doesn't stop people calling him one of goats.
I think, this is mostly a United category in this discussion, I'd personally(!!) say a player can only be world class when he is seen as that by the majority of neutrals as well. And from a neutrals point of view, I don't think Bruno is as good of a leader that it can count as a strength in claim for world class.
I just checked the ballon dor lists back until 2021. In 2021 he has a shared 21th place, from then on he has never even been on the list. Of course the team plays into it but there are individuals in those lists that don't belong to winning sides and its 30 players. Anybody with another good idea of how to distinguish how neutrals see him? I am genuinely interested. From my point of view, and that means from football youtube channels mostly, I wouldn't say his name is used all too often there. They all rate him of course, but all this "best chance creator" bla bla, I honestly think that is something that holds way more meaning for United fans (certainly a certain subgroup of them) than it does for the majority of football fans. And guys like Statman Dave don't count
Easy points, nobody in good faith
Man Utd 4:1 Real Sociedad
New
A complete different level, what a player.
Yes.
Sexy fecking bastard
Hope Keane keeps complaining about him.
Clowns United fans having a go at him.
Clowns United fans having a go at him.