If we had a player that sit deep and dictate the tempo then we will be golden. Our issue is McTominay plays the same role Fred but not to his level and now is asked sit as the pivot which his not very good as a player you will need to know how to shield, dribble through a press and pass which McTominay is not.
Bruno, Fred, McT
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That should be the starting point if we intended to try Pogba in midfield.
I believe Ole rates Matic (I do too), and thought it was the safer option than Fred (who probably needs a few games to get going; less popular choice too).
Might sound a little controversial but I believe Ole starting Pogba from the very beginning hung him out to dry, Paul was clearly not fit after Covid. Even if the difference to his current performances isn't that big, I thought this was a mistake (and I was one of the few people who wanted Pogba sold in the summer).
We've lost big points, but overall it seems lesson has been learned quite fast and we're heading in the right direction. True is, Pogba conceding a penalty made it much easier for Ole to drop him. It seems the fanbase have turned on Pogba too, so for now no pressure for OGS to play him.
Manchester United are a better team when Pogba is on the bench. Fred should continue to start along with Scott when we play the double pivot. I really would like to see a 4-3-3 formation though with Fred holding and VDB and Bruno ahead of him. Hopefully, in one of the home matches vs a club who will put 11 men behind the ball Ole will give that formation a shot.
Fred is a must in every game. Love him or hate him, he is our Kante. Our Fernandinho. Our Partey. He may not be anywhere near as good as those lads but hes the only guy in the squad that makes the midfield engine room tick. His interceptions, constant pressing, and general passing tempo enable the team and other players every possibility to focus on doing there own job good. And thats where we hit abit of dead end at times.
Even the arsenal game when Fred was misplacing passes, I feel it was a mistake to take him out for Matic as it just killed the teams tempo and pressing.
Out of pure interest Id like to see how VDB goes next to him against West Brom with Bruno in front. Just to see.
Against big teams McT and Fred work. There Job? simply break up play and disrupt the midfield. No need to win the possession battle, simply disrupt, press and counter if possible.
It's against every other team that McT leaves a little to be desired. Problem sadly is Pogba can still be a liability against even the likes of West Brom and co.
Even the arsenal game when Fred was misplacing passes, I feel it was a mistake to take him out for Matic as it just killed the teams tempo and pressing.
Out of pure interest Id like to see how VDB goes next to him against West Brom with Bruno in front. Just to see.
Against big teams McT and Fred work. There Job? simply break up play and disrupt the midfield. No need to win the possession battle, simply disrupt, press and counter if possible.
It's against every other team that McT leaves a little to be desired. Problem sadly is Pogba can still be a liability against even the likes of West Brom and co.
This is where I feel that a midfield of McTominay/Matic, Fred, DVB and Bruno would be our best midfield. I do like Matic in some games. Fred's job is to disrupt and press. We have DVB and Bruno to do the creative work. Matic can pass too.
What happened in June should have no bearing on any consideration. When every team, European teams included, came back from restart, form and readiness were not at 100%.
Why Fred seemed to be a better player than Matic - because of work rate
Why McTom seemed to be a better partner in MF than Pogba - because of work rate, more protective cover
EPL has come to a situation whereby 2/3 of the teams are practically contention for title. Pogba may be OK against Sheffield Utd., or Championship clubs.
Why Fred seemed to be a better player than Matic - because of work rate
Why McTom seemed to be a better partner in MF than Pogba - because of work rate, more protective cover
EPL has come to a situation whereby 2/3 of the teams are practically contention for title. Pogba may be OK against Sheffield Utd., or Championship clubs.
Maybe, maybe not. What we do know is that we were only drawing against Newcastle with the combination this thread (and the post I was replaying to) is talking about, and only started winning once we changed it. Indeed in three of the five matches against decent opposition (PL teams and PSG) that we've used this combination for we had to wait until we bought Pogba on to improve the result. You can take that information anyway you wish, I'm just pointing out that fact.
Also, it annoys me how both this forum and seemingly Ole himself seems to have Fred-McTominay and Pogba-Matic as two completely separate combinations instead of mixing them up a bit. Fred-Matic has been our most successful combination when we've actually used it, and even Fred-Pogba worked very well against Sevilla (I wouldn't use Fred-Pogba at the moment though as Pogba is obviously struggling).
Exactly. Ole needs to mix it up. One thing I know is Fred and Bruno are starters and absolute necessities in our game so it's finding that third man. There's no competition though, the third man has to be Mctominay against teams stronger than us for now. But against teams we are stronger than we should try one of Pogba Matic or VdB. Mctominay and Fred shouldn't be playing at the same time when we are required to control games
What we do know is that despite the game being 1-1 against Newcastle, we had 20 shots before Pogba came on. If people don’t watch the full match and only looking at the time when they came on, when the goals were scored and what was the score, it doesn’t tell the whole story aka lacks of context.
You can talk about 1-1 scoreline and use it in your argument as you wish but the story is that we created lot of chances with Fred & Scott and those chances were good enough to finish the game but Darlow made lot of great saves in that match, I’m just pointing out fact.
Not coincidence how Pogba is more effective as impact sub, fact tells you he performed better and we played better when his role is impact sub than as a starter. The logic behind it makes sense because opposition players will be tired when he comes on as a sub and that’s where physically he is on advantage to hold the ball and takes too many touches.
I view it similar to the incident when Rashford was clearly struggling with his back and Ole still risked him in the cup. Dunno why he makes decisions like that, but it's a small trend now.
Maybe he's not in charge of fitness, but surely whoever is should see that the players aren't fit to play and say something to Ole.
It's not just the Newcastle game though. Against Spurs last season we were losing with the same trio, then Pogba came on and won the penalty to get us a draw. Against PSG we were drawing until Pogba came on and got the assist for our winner. And against Newcastle we were drawing until after Pogba came on. When it's happened three times in five matches it's becoming a bit of a trend.
My point isn't really about Pogba, it's that I think people are overstating how well Bruno, Fred, McTominay have done as a trio. Based on results in the time that they've been on the field, they've played five games against decent opposition and have one win, three draws and a loss. Four wins against lower league opposition in the cups pads out their stats a bit.
Interesting stats. I think it's clear that Fred should be our most-used midfielder due to the amount of off-the-ball work he does.
The argument here is that you are giving Pogba credit against Newcastle when he did nothing in any of our goals we scored against Newcastle, no one is arguing with you about Pogba being good as super sub against PSG which different team to Newcastle that allows us to have more possession which was the argument of @jamesjimmybyrondean
And other than the goals against Newcastle, our best chances actually came from Bruno’s penalty & Rashford‘s chance which both of them came from before Pogba came on. Here another two facts for you:
1) All of those 3 goals that we scored against Newcastle none of the build up play came from Pogba.
Bruno’s goal: Shelvey’s free kick -> Maguire header clearance -> Donny -> Bruno -> Donny -> Mata -> Rashford -> Bruno’s goal
Bissaka’s goal: Bruno -> Shaw -> Maguire -> McT -> Lindelof -> Bissaka -> Rashford -> Bissaka’s goal
Rashford’s goal: Matic lost the ball -> McT ball recovery and tackle -> Bruno -> Rashford‘s goal
2) The penalty that we got in that game, Rashford one on one chance, Fred involved in the build up.
Penalty: Fred won the ball back and pass the ball -> Bruno -> Mata -> Rashford‘s fouled
Rashford one on one chance: Fred interception -> Rashford -> Bruno -> Rashford - Bruno -> James -> Mata -> Rashford’s chance
I'm not giving Pogba the credit. I'm just not giving the credit to Bruno, Fred, McTominay. It just happened to be Pogba in all three matches that came on, but I'd be saying the identical thing if it had been Pogba in one match, Matic in another, and VDB in the third. In all three the trio that this thread is about were getting a worse result until another midfield player came on to replace/join them. That's my point.
None of the three matches you mentioned show why Pogba should be in our starting XI, it actually tells you that his best role is super sub and we are better to start our match with these trio based on we are currently have. And stop putting the Newcastle game into the same page as the PSG game, it shows lack of context once again.
You shouldn’t and cannot ignore these facts: Pogba or even Matic did nothing involved in our goals and our best chances against Newcastle but McT did and Fred involved in our goals and our best chances. So you should give credit to Fred & McT for being part of the chances we created in those and also credit to Darlow for saving the penalty and one on one chances instead of talking about something without context.
I never said Pogba should be in the starting line-up. Indeed I've said numerous times over different threads that he shouldn't be in a midfield two and now that we've got Bruno it's difficult to fit him in. It's Fred-Matic that I want to see given more of a chance, as they have got our best results statistically (3 wins out of 4, with three of those matches being against top teams and the only loss when we rested players in the FA Cup) and in theory is our most balanced midfield. Perhaps even Fred-VDB against weaker teams just to see how it would work.
What seemed to kick this entire thing off is somebody stated that we beat Newcastle 4-1 with the Bruno, Fred, McTominay combination and I pointed out that we actually didn't. If it were just that one game it wouldn't mean anything (especially since we did play well while they were together), but the fact it's three games out of five that something similar has happened means it's becoming a bit of a trend. It's still a fairly small sample size so it's not a huge deal, but it also shouldn't be overlooked when we have an 8 page thread about them being our best midfield.
Pogba is a defensive liability while Fred-McT create next to nothing. If I had to choose between Fred and McT then I would go with Fred as he offers more to the game then McT does. Meanwhile VDB is a B2B player who provides creativity and work rate.
In my opinion we should go for Fred-VDB-Bruno. Pogba should be Bruno's cover/competitor while McT should cover/compete with Fred. If Pogba leaves then I'd go for someone like Neves ie someone who can play both as DM and B2B while concurrently promoting Mejbri and Galbraith
In my opinion we should go for Fred-VDB-Bruno. Pogba should be Bruno's cover/competitor while McT should cover/compete with Fred. If Pogba leaves then I'd go for someone like Neves ie someone who can play both as DM and B2B while concurrently promoting Mejbri and Galbraith
Is the stat from this season only?
Nice with the +1 statistics. Small samplesize, but makes my favorisation of Fred justice. Early conclusion, but maybe this means that Fred brings more balance no matter how you play him.
.... Or that he's just had easier opponents
Before Fred was off, we had chances to made it to 3-1 against Newcastle from Bruno’s penalty and Rashford missed one on one shitter. In fact if it wasn’t because an unlucky own goal from Martial against PSG we would still be 1-0 lead against PSG.
What you are ignoring is the context of what’s happening in those matches. The fact is that we managed to still fully under control against PSG & Newcastle before the substitution and that alone is fact for the reason how we managed to win the match. If it wasn’t because those three in midfield, we will be fully dominated by Newcastle & PSG like the Brighton Spurs & the Istanbul game. And if we are being dominated, we would have either lose or hoping that the goal post saves us like 5-10 times.
Fred needs to play, yes.
Spot on imo. Fred and McT also had some of their best games last season against big opponents like Liverpool and PSG where they worked their arses off.
They add a much needed shield to a terrible defense, which our xG-Conceded backs up.
As you say Fred is the better fit for lesser opponents and should be the constant, and I guess that's where VdB should come in to the mix (and Pogba move to Spain/Italy as he can't find much focus and hunger against mediocre teams)
They might not be Zidane's but that's not their job neither. It's the clubs task to fill the remaining attacking options and make them tick consistently.
I'd say Fred is improving on the creating aspect. Should have had 2 assist against Everton.
——————DDG
AWB Maguire Lindelof Telles
————McT. Fred
——-VdB Bruno Rashford/Martial
—————Cavani
Hope Ole will try VdB to emulate Mata but with better defending and pressing. We are shit when Bruno is marked. Mata movement and passing open space for Bruno. VdB should be able to play a Mata role. Martial plays a Firmino role in our set up but Firmino has around him Mane, Salah or Sterling who can both score and create. Since Rashford is struggling to score a clear chance we should use Cavani to convert chances. Martial for Rashford on the left also is an option. Rashford might be burned out and needs rest.
wrong thread. Meant to be West Brom. Sorry
AWB Maguire Lindelof Telles
————McT. Fred
——-VdB Bruno Rashford/Martial
—————Cavani
Hope Ole will try VdB to emulate Mata but with better defending and pressing. We are shit when Bruno is marked. Mata movement and passing open space for Bruno. VdB should be able to play a Mata role. Martial plays a Firmino role in our set up but Firmino has around him Mane, Salah or Sterling who can both score and create. Since Rashford is struggling to score a clear chance we should use Cavani to convert chances. Martial for Rashford on the left also is an option. Rashford might be burned out and needs rest.
wrong thread. Meant to be West Brom. Sorry
I am not sure why some fans are trying to put VDB in a CDM role, when you can see the way he plays, he is more of a 10, making runs and creating space.
To fans who say, you don't win the league with McT and Fred but who thought Henderson and Gini would be a force?
Do not underestimate the value of a workhorse midfield when you have talent up top.
To fans who say, you don't win the league with McT and Fred but who thought Henderson and Gini would be a force?
Do not underestimate the value of a workhorse midfield when you have talent up top.
Ideally you'd have one world class defensive centre midfielder, until we have that, McT and Fred combo is the best option we have. They bring good energy to the team, shield the back 4 and free up Bruno and the other forwards.
The team look best balanced when we play with these 2 players playing a 4-2-3-1. Different combo's in midfield if Ole opts to play the 3-5-2 or 4-4-2 Diamond in certain games.
Pogba doesn't deserve his place in the team and I think DvB has been brought in as his long term replacement.
The team look best balanced when we play with these 2 players playing a 4-2-3-1. Different combo's in midfield if Ole opts to play the 3-5-2 or 4-4-2 Diamond in certain games.
Pogba doesn't deserve his place in the team and I think DvB has been brought in as his long term replacement.
A workhorse midfield, for a coach as tactically lightweight as Solksjaer, is the way to go to be successful.
Depending on formation, the first two spots should be taken by Fred, McTominay or Matic. That leaves the remaining spot to be rotated between Pogba, Fernandes and van de Beek.
A consistent, industrious midfield, signing someone for the RW (I know, it's very unlikely this will probably ever happen) and getting stability on the LW will give Solskjaer every chance of pushing us up to the next level.
As well as attacking fullbacks and a very good coach
As well as a defensive striker who doesnt get many goals.
They have a very good coach, does it not show when a top coach is going with 3 workhorses in a team?
Pep Guardiola has changed the way he approaches games too, instead of the Fernandinho, KDB, Silva midfield he now has Rodri, Gundogan and KDB.
You're still ignoring that those teams have enough creativity in other positions to cover up for the work horses while we don't
Thats why those teams are better.
Liverpools creativity comes from full backs
Man City from KDB
Manutd Bruno
What is the difference? the difference is not having 1 extra player attacking, its the consistency of the players.
You can see when City dont have the same level of consistency, they struggle too.
Playing in centre midfield doesn't mean you're a CDM. There's different ways to play the role. Was Scholes, Fabregas, Modric a CDM?
VDB has shown he's got great control, he's press resistant and he moves the ball quickly with as little touches as possible, then loves to get into the box when the ball goes wide.
Go back to how he played against Villa in our pre season friendly and that's similar to what we should be expecting, it was a good performance.
Now obviously it's not going to work every match, but against teams that will be sitting back and giving us more time on the ball he will be ideal. I'd rather have him in there being a threat than an extra CDM just standing there recycling the ball.
So are Fred and McTominay CDM's? The said players were quite disciplined and had a very good long pass on them, If you have seen anything about VDB is that he is a link player, he likes the one touch passing into space in and around the box.
The pre season game where we lost?
The bolded comment I agree with, because I feel Bruno is clever enough to realise he needs to help out when VDB goes forward.
Like you said, against teams that sit back this could work, I agree because we need a VDB type player in them games like WBA at home. But playing Everton away, the midfield was good.
Fred is more of a box to box with his defensive work being much better than his attacking, so I would class him as being a more defensive player.
Yes we lost but if you watched the game we dominated it. Villa have been good this season so far so that was a good sign.
I hope we sell Pogba in January as he is the enigma in the side. Its all about fitting Pogba in usually to the detriment of the side. Its obvious he doesnt want to be here and maybe that affects him conciously or subconciously in playing to a substandard to how he plays in France. He might go to Madrid, Juve etc and be a superstar, but he will never be that for us.
Use the money to get a proper DM in like Partey. We can then drop one of Fred/McTom to play VDB. Get nother AM on.
Use the money to get a proper DM in like Partey. We can then drop one of Fred/McTom to play VDB. Get nother AM on.
You could say City's problem Is consistency but they've lost Kompany, Silva, Fernandinho, and Sane. They lost some of the creativity they had before and they begin struggle. Agree to disagree.
Well this is the second season without Kompany. The losses are more dressing room losses, Silva, Fernandhino, Sane did't play much in their preferred positions last season.
They also have signed Dias, Rodri, Torres to replace the players and promoted Foden.
Which is not the case for United, never was Ronaldo replaced. Never was Carrick and Scholes replaced. Never was Vidic and Rio replaced.
I'm also bemused with the idea of playing VDB as CDM role. Might work few games but on long term probably not the best thing to do.
Just like what you said, we can use Liverpool's Klopp as example, they have Fabinho & Henderson, it's pretty much McT & Fred. The only difference obviously McT's passing ability is still something he needs to work on to even be on Fabinho's level but the point is that those two Fabinho & Henderson are also defensive midfielder not playmaker. If we want to upgrade McT then it's not by playing VDB into the role but by buying someone like Fabinho or Partey. Or if we want someone level above, get the new Keane or Carrick, can do both defense & playmaking equally but we'll be lucky enough to get someone like Keane or Carrick nowdays.
Agreed. The difference between United, Liverpool and City midfield is insignificant. It's the front three that make the difference.
Exactly, we need to upgrade on McTominay but that is not VDB, its a failure from the recruitment team not to identify this as a problem. We need a DLP and believe me Donny is not the answer.
Everyone voted Donny MOTM for the Istanbul game, he played CM in the double pivot, he was seen around the box most of the time. Yes, I know he kept the ball well, he was efficient but he did not play his position well which is why we were so open on the counter attack. Matic alone was covering ground.. with the likes of Mata, Donny, Bruno all trying to get in the 10 space.
Donny's best game was against Lepzig where he played 10, that is his position. Just because he has the ability to keep the ball nice and tidy, it doesn't mean he is a 6/8 because he is a player that likes to get in the box.
This is definitely our best midfield trio but we definitely need to find a better player than Mctominay looking more long term. Fine with him being in the squad but we need a better footballer alongside Fred if we want to compete for top honours again.