Bundesliga 19/20

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by do.ob, Jul 28, 2019.

  1. Oct 12, 2019

    CookieMonster Full Member

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    I wonder how much it hurts you that said lovely club actually helped Dortmund keep its head above water in 2005.
    And then you'd have to imagine that Klopp's idol was/is Franz Beckenbauer.
    And on top of that Bayern and Dortmund don't actually have that bad of a relationship for rivals, which isn't that surprising, if you consider that the rivalry means money for both buisnesses.

    But hey, never forget: Bayern is the bad guy!
    Despite trying to convince the other clubs to abolish the dumb 50+1 rule, so that clubs with big traditions (for example the HSV, Stuttgart, Cologne, Nuremberg etc.) could get an investor and become competitive compared to Bayern and Dortmund.
    All just so the Bundesliga becomes more attractive, competitive and all around better, which would benefit all clubs and German football as a whole.

    Those Bastards! :mad:
  2. Oct 12, 2019

    .mica New Member

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    A little bit of whataboutism here. But ok: it doesn't hurt me that back 2005 Bayern gave BVB a credit of about 1 Mil. Euros, which is ridicoulus less money, and it was paid back quick if i remember correctly. What this got to do with the proven facts that FC Bayern current board is full of criminals? Or the facts which are written in the article? Btw: i just wanted to share this news, which i found interesting. Did't expect that the reactions from Bayern fans in here are even more interesting ;)

    To the other topic, the 50+1 rule:
    I think its one of the main and most important things in german football, which provides at least some last sense in the football as a whole. As a thing for the people. And not as a big thing of uncontrolled capitalism which steal a thing of joy and heart from the people to make profit out of it for some few.
    The 50+1 rule is essential. And to take the power of Bayern as an argument against it is cynical.
    One of the biggest "arguments" in the international comparison for the Bundesliga and all lower leagues (the 2. Bundelsiga and the 3. Liga are great leagues and fun, with records of audience numbers in the stadiums and in front of the TV) is the atmosphere in the stadiums and the variability of the clubs. And 50+1 rule got a lot to do with this.
  3. Oct 12, 2019

    Balu Full Member

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    The article, that you didn't read, about a book that hasn't even come out yet? Seems like you base all your "facts" on one short headline that's sole purpose is to sell the article?

    Like I said, it's well known to most footballs fans what happened in the 80's and that there were shady deals between Bayern and the Bavarian government. I hope the book is a good read and shows us both sides of the person and the club, success and failure, on and off the pitch. I'm fairly certain though, it isn't some great piece of investigative journalism that gives us anything new. It isn't marketed like that either. It's from an historian who tells in details a meaningful chapter of the club.
  4. Oct 12, 2019

    Balu Full Member

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  5. Oct 12, 2019

    Acrobat7 Full Member

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    So you haven‘t read it?
  6. Oct 13, 2019

    Swarm Full Member

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    I always struggle when I see any of your posts because I instinctively feel the urge to argue against them because I feel like it makes Dortmund fans look terrible. I probably shouldn't feel so strongly about it but it really bums me out. You claiming you just wanted to "share the news" is nonsense, you enjoy trying to smear any kind of dirt on our rival, even if it is in the most infantile and nonsensical ways possible. While I dislike Bayern as a club and some of their executives I prefer to keep a discussion objective in order to remain credible.

    While I get where this is coming from (see above) I feel like there is a lot of strange stuff mixed in here I'd like to adress. While I agree that the shady dealings of Bayern representatives in the 70's and 80's are very much old news I feel like the 2005 loan is a bit of a cheap shot and really doesn't have anything to do with it. It is indeed a "whataboutism" but eh, not a big deal.

    Dortmund and Bayern not being rivals (they still aren't in my opinion) is pretty easily understood. Deeply ingrained rivalries usually stem from clubs being in the same area (derbies, e.g. Schalke or 1860) or being on a similar competitive level for an extended period of time. Neither has been the case for Dortmund and Bayern. Dortmund may have been the team closest to being a rival for Bayern but if we are being honest nobody has really perceived them as such don't you think? I would assume especially Bayern supporters don't feel particularly threatened by Dortmund and I think the disdain Dortmund fans have for Bayern is not necessarily matched the other way around. The rivalry Bayern-Dortmund is a media figment.

    What actually irks me the most is your reductive take on the 50+1 rule. I tend to agree partially to how @.mica clumsily tried to convey that it preserves at least a shred of credibility on German football. I am aware that it is not perfect in what it is trying to do and I know that we don't have some uncapitalistic utopia here but generally I prefer the German system to the ones in the other big leagues in Europe. It can however not really be disputed that German football is falling behind and that is definitely exacerbated by a "lack" of investors. It seems capitalism in international football is too strong to not kill off any of the old systems and German football will probably have to give in or die off at some point. And this is what the Bayern bosses are aware of. So what they are trying to do is save themselves and there really is no point in you trying to paint them as the good guys doing anyone else a favor. Investors have not helped the traditional clubs, they have brought about repugnant crap such as Leipzig. And Bayern being interested in more money in the Bundesliga is entirely for selfish reasons (which is of course fine, everyone for himself!) and not because they want to help anyone else.
  7. Oct 13, 2019

    Zehner Full Member

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    Unpopular opinion: I prefer clubs like Leipzig or City to traditional teams. Being there for a long time shouldn't automatically earn you a place in the first division. Those spots should be reserved for the clubs that are professionally managed. And in that regard, Leipzig shits on almost every other team in the Bundesliga right now. Yes, they receive money from Red Bull but damn, they definitely know how to invest it. They are an absolute enrichment for the Bundesliga, training and developing many young talents. They deserve to be where they are.

    Honestly, what kept clubs like Hamburg, Hannover or Stuttgart from doing the same, even if not in the same fashion then at least on a smaller scale? They had the money but they stood in their own way. They preferred investing fortunes in completely short term oriented strategies and assets. How many great talents has Hamburg alone shied away? How many times have those teams appointed a dumb manager/director whose only qualification was that he had some kind of history with the club as a player? And those people went on and absolutely preditably made horrible decisions. Completely short-term oriented, idiotic stuff. Those clubs are the football equivalent to old companies with outdated structures and managerial processes which deserve to be disrupted. Leipzig on the other hand is a startup. They are financially backed by an investor but they sure as hell know how to invest the money they get.

    So yeah, feck tradition. I can't stand all those traditional club officials who like to depict themselves in a victim role. If you think money is the only reason Leipzig is where it is, you either aren't paying attention or are too close minded to understand how they work. Either way you don't deserve their spot with such a dumb mindset.
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2019
  8. Oct 13, 2019

    Acrobat7 Full Member

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  9. Oct 13, 2019

    Balu Full Member

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    The whole 2005 loan talk is just so silly. It was a cheap shot by Hoeneß, that made him look stupid once it became clear that it was not only a rather small loan, but also the first loan Dortmund paid back once Watzke took over. It had absolutely zero impact on the team that won two consecutive titles under Klopp. And while it certainly helped shortterm back in 2005, there's no way that it was what prevented Dortmund from going broke. Other clubs were in a much more dire situation and still survived. Dortmund would have found the money somewhere else.

    In general you shouldn't help someone out and then hold it over his head. No matter where in life, it's just bad behaviour and makes you a cnut. Sadly it's typical for Hoeneß. He did lots of great stuff in his life, I'm sure plenty of it in the beginning for the right reasons, but made himself look like an arrogant prick by shouting it out to the media. He got away with it before his tax evasion, even though he probably shouldn't have. But in the last decade, he truely destroyed his legacy in spectacular fashion.

    I think, there is some sort of rivalry, but it doesn't go that deep. It got blown out of proportion by the media with the whole "Klassiker" bullshit, when it's clearly not a historic rivalry that deserves that tag. The rivalries with Gladbach in the 70's and Hamburg in the 80's were more meaningful, because Bayern was actually threatend by them to lose the number 1 status in the country longterm. I'd argue that this was also the case in the 90's with Hitzfeld's Dortmund side. But Dortmund in this decade is more like the rivalry with Bremen. We don't like each other all that much, but it isn't really threatening, neither short nor longterm.
  10. Oct 13, 2019

    Swarm Full Member

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    Hm, I will try to reply to this as open mindedly as I can. I think this is a very difficult subject to discuss, because it can escalate into mindless fights very quickly and as you may have taken from my previous post I have a quite strong opinion on it. Nevertheless I try to keep an open mind. For example I don't want to judge someone for being a Leipzig fan, I think people can have very different reasons for being a fan of something and I don't want to ridicule them for it. I might not entirely comprehend their reasoning but that shouldn't take anything away from them. I don't mind the fans, I hate the "product".

    When you started your post with the "unpopular opinion" bit I expected not to agree but I was curious about the arguments to come. Honestly that left me quite disappointed because there is basically one argument (Leipzig invest their money well, clubs like Hamburg are idiots) dragged out a bit. I am actually not even disputing either of them. Leipzig are indeed doing a pretty good job most of the time, Hamburg have been mismanaging to a comical extent and other clubs like Schalke, Stuttgart or Köln have made significant mistakes in the past. What I am disputing is that they had comparable prerequisites.

    Leipzig are a club and team created with a vision - a style of football employing a lot of young players as promoting a brand - starting in the fifth division. Enormous amounts of money were invested into team and infrastructure, nevertheless it took them three years to get promoted from the fourth division. This lull in development was only possible for them because they had constant cashflow which was independent (!) of sporting success. This is what has distinguished them from any other project with less monetary backing - they could and can afford to make mistakes. This ability probably makes them look a lot better than they are. You can afford to make these mistakes if you can just buy yourself out to look brilliant the next day. This ability to make mistakes is to this day what gives them an edge and what leads clubs with less security to make questionable decisions. You disdainfully point out that clubs like Hamburg plan for the short term, which has multiple reasons. Some of these are issues that plague "traditional" clubs: Inflated expectations from their huge fanbase, a vicious media coverage in Hamburg and an unhealthy dependence on Mr. Kühne and his money. All of this should not be swept under the rug and a lot of this is self inflicted but it all comes down to them not being able to afford their transfers to fail miserably. They had to work with limited budgets fighting relegation.

    And sure, you can point out positive examples like Freiburg or even Dortmund making their own luck without the backing of someone like Red Bull, but this is oftentimes tied to somewhat lucky personnel decisions and once that personnel is gone it may go back downhill again (Klopp, Streich). And I have now only reacted to your argument and not talked about additional aspects of a club like Leipzig that annoy me like their competition distorting connections to Salzburg/Liefering/New York, their obvious bending of DFB/DFL/UEFA rules (with these bodies not really doing a lot to fight it), their blatant bending of the rules of being a "Verein" in Germany obviously not wanting any members that could want a say in club matters (not sure what fees are nowadays, they sued to be around 700€ as far as I know) and I could probably find more if I took the time.

    So yeah, feck plastic clubs. I understand if people don't care that it is unfair (football business is unfair, I get it), the worst thing for me about this development is for the fans. Plastic clubs like Leipzig take up slots of clubs that actually have deeply ingrained fan bases. Of course that doesn't give you any kind of right of inheritance but it still hurts me that fans of clubs like Duisburg, Bochum, Kaiserslautern, Nürnberg, Braunschweig, Aachen, 1860 München, Karlsruhe and yes, Hamburg and Stuttgart have to see their clubs go to shit while we have clubs like Hoffenheim, Leipzig or Hoffenheim in the Bundesliga who can't even fill their stadium in European games sometimes. And finally, I wanted to make some snarky reply to your last paragraph turning it into the opposite but I noticed myself sounding like a dick as well, so I didn't.
  11. Oct 13, 2019

    Swarm Full Member

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    Cheers :)

    With Hoeneß I am actually not a hundred percent sure how I feel, there are times where I feel at least a bit sorry for him, he really seems somewhat deluded nowadays. He has been a the poster boy for a lot of people (like me) who need someone to direct their frustration with the club Bayern at :lol: That may have been calculated oftentimes and has been held to his credit but he has lost his mark recently and I am really not sure when it changed or if he has just always been an insufferable cnut. I can't help but feel a good deal of satisfaction from seeing him tarnish his legacy in the way he does.

    Yeah, that was pretty much what I meant, even though that last sentence does sting a bit :lol: I wish at least the short term part weren't as true as it is...
  12. Oct 13, 2019

    Balu Full Member

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    Come on now. A huge fan base and a billionaire gifting the club money might have its downsides, but surely it's generally a massive advantage. There's no reasonable way to turn this into a disadvantage. The lack of sane decision making at Hamburg isn't forced through the media or fans. The club was run into the ground despite a huge financial advantage over 80% of the league. When they started fighting relegation in 13/14 and were saved in the relegation playoffs, they still had the 4th biggest revenue in Germany only behind Bayern, Dortmund and Schalke. The years prior to that, Hamburg was a top 20 club in Europe in terms of revenue. Fairly certain that didn't change all that much the following years with Wolfsburg temporarily having a bigger budget than Hamburg, maybe Hoffenheim as well. But that's about it until Leipzig came along. And that's without the additional money they got from Kühne.

    Clubs like 1860 or Kaiserslautern went down because of massive mismanagement and/or corruption. Actually, including 1860 in a list of "unlucky traditional clubs" after their embarrassing attempt to get back to the top with an investor from the middle east is just insane.
  13. Oct 13, 2019

    Swarm Full Member

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    I guess this is trying to cover an incredibly complex topic in one post coming back to haunt me :) I'll try to address the points you are raising with a few bullet points, I think we are mostly on the same page anyways.
    • Hamburg were definitely not the best example to showcase the issues clubs without strong monetary backing can have. As I did mention I believe Leipzig do very well with the means they are given and Hamburg are just doing laughably bad.
    • From what I have gathered on Kühne (definitively limited), he has always wanted to have a say in how his money was invested whenever he did give the club any. Kühne may be (have been) a good businessman, he does not know a lot about football. This should not be an excuse for anyone, but I understand how such a situation can lead to bad decisions.
    • 1860 and Kaiserslautern going down due to mismanagement is not something I dispute. Actually all of the clubs mentioned have gotten into their position due to a mixture of mismanagement and prerequisites (fan base, region, sponsors etc.). What I am saying is that Leipzig don't have to fear any consequences from mismanagement because they will always be bailed out.
    • I have stopped following the events at 1860 a while ago because it is just sad.
    • I am not listing "unlucky traditional clubs", I am listing clubs with substantial fan bases whose places have been taken up by the plastic clubs I mentioned. The list was entirely indifferent to how "deserved" it was, that they went down because it is never the fans fault anyways. All I am saying is that - if they worked well under some kind of new management - less of these clubs have the opportunity to return to the Bundesliga because a club like Leipzig will not be allowed to go down until Red Bull pulls the plug.
  14. Oct 13, 2019

    Balu Full Member

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    Well yeah, that's true. But we're so far away from that situation, it isn't actually worth the discussion. If clubs like Augsburg, Mainz or Freiburg perform so much better on a smaller budget, it just sounds like a stupid artificially created discussion. Hoffenheim could have easily gone down if not for the bold decision to appoint Nagelsmann. That was the difference between Hamburg and Hoffenheim and certainly not some magical financial advantage that can't be overcome.

    Obviously Leipzig is here to stay, but they are just one club. None of Wolfsburg, Leverkusen or Hoffenheim are backed with enough money to count as "too rich to go down" and can't be overcome by a well lead traditional club.
  15. Oct 13, 2019

    Zehner Full Member

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    I used to think similarly, honestly. Strongly disliked Wolfsburg, Hoffenheim and Leipzig, tried to convince people - including myself - that Leverkusen actually has a history and belongs into a different category. However, I actually am a person that gives a feck on tradition in all other aspects of life. I'm very interested in startups, tech, development and all that stuff. I dislike people and entities that refuse to change or improve themselves. And all those tradition clubs that faded into nothingness are actually the embodiment of "we've always done it that way and it was successful so we keep on doing it like that". So I came to the conclusion that all this blustering about tradition is bullshit to me and I actually prefer the disrupters who innovate and make things better.

    People are used to clubs promoting former players into very important jobs, quite often even into the most important positions there are (managers, directors, presidents, etc.). That's such a common practice that few really question it but if you really let that sink in, you understand how the silly this common practice actually is. Professional football clubs - even the small teams - are companies that earn millions. Their employees earn millions. And they regularly appoint people that don't even have the slightest qualification for such jobs. People who quite commonly received no education after their a levels, in many cases even earlier. Usually you need a university degree plus years or even decades of working experience to be even considered fit for such position. No wonder they fail.

    See, in the end, all football clubs are businesses. When people describe Leipzig as a "plastic club" or "artificial", I don't understand where they see the difference to their very own team? It's not like Red Bull has altruistic, sentimental or entertainment-oriented motives or something along those lines, they invest the money because they expect an advertising impact in return, just like the sponsors of every other team. So essentially, their business model is the same as those of every other club in the league, they simply take it one step further than anyone else. It doesn't matter where they started, it was an investment in the future that wasn't expected to pay off right away. This kind of long term oriented thinking is what most other clubs - and especially those that fell from glory into insignificance - are lacking.

    What I feel and what really grinds my gears is that all those ranting about plastic clubs are - if you really think about - just angry that someone came, did it differently by thinking outside the box and - suprise, suprise - was successful with it. They abandoned common practices many people deemed mandatory. They broke the conventions and people are mad because of it. They didn't prioritize short term over long term, they did the exact opposite. And contrary to what people were expecting and what they would've done with the RB money (spend it on the best players, the early Chelsea/City/PSG strategy) they behaved totally differently and invest it in an exceptional scouting network, young talents, their academies and infrastructure. There are so many young players who are where they are thanks to Leipzig. And it's the same with coaches. This is what I call an enrichment for the Bundesliga. Not a club that is managed poorly but creates a warm feeling of nostalgia when you see it's shirts because it reminds you of your youth. If you observe Leipzig, you get the feeling they have a strategy that they pursue. A team with a mission. Very few clubs in the Bundesliga can say that about themselves, IMO.

    So from my point of view, the only argument you brought up and I can relate to is the one about the full stadiums. Yes, that's a real quality of the Bundesliga. But if that was the decisive criterion, we could as well just vote democratically who should play in the Bundesliga. After all, we are talking about a sport and sports are about competing against each other. And as much as everybody may love it, those competition isn't won on the pitch but mostly in the offices of the people who make strategic decisions for their clubs. And in that regard, Leipzig currently trumps every other club in Germany, like it or not.
  16. Oct 14, 2019

    Swarm Full Member

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    Don't get me wrong, I don't want any clubs to get a safe spot in the Bundesliga for traditional clubs, especially if they are awfully managed. Hamburg were due to go down for a long time and I enjoyed it when it happened. I am big fan of clubs like Mainz and Freiburg but it is the same for them. If Hamburg are to come back to the league, someone else has to go down and it sure won't be Leipzig. Clubs like Paderborn or Union are more enjoyable alternatives, they are something new and they got to the league on merit (and of course some amount of money, but certainly not a lot more than the opposition).

    I should maybe clarify that the degrees to which I dislike the clubs we are talking about vary and Leipzig are by far the worst offenders in my opinion. When Hoffenheim came to the league I thought they were fun and exciting, a great story of a team cruising through the second division and having a great impact in their first Bundesliga season. Today (and after a little while back then, I was only 18, when they got promoted) I see that a little differently since it is comparable to what Leipzig did: build a strong team in the lower divisions with a large amount of money and then plow through to the Bundesliga. I still find the reasoning and the way the money was invested to be different. I do believe that Dietmar Hopp is a football fan and he supported his hometown club. I don't necessarily agree with the extent to which he did it, basically forcing that club on everyone else but I genuinely believe it was because he cared for something else than his own monetary gain. Additionally his investment in the club wasn't indefinite and he has been pulling the plug a bit, leaving the club to mostly fend for themselves (of course still getting handsome funding from SAP) and they have been close to relegation a few times since then. I believe if they had been relegated they probably would have stayed down and I think eventually that will happen. And I think when it does nobody will shed a tear except for a few fans in the Kraichgau.
    So basically Hoffenheim now have a comparable advantage (good money from SAP) to what Wolfsburg have: a sponsor whose sponsoring is less tied to their sporting success. This gives them a certain advantage but in the end probably won't help them if all the "traditional" clubs suddenly work phantastically. I would actually be really interested to see what would happen if Wolfsburg were to get relegated. I believe VW aren't able to invest as much as they used to anymore.

    Overall I guess I have gotten used to most of these clubs. Hoffenheim have mostly become a midtable club, Wolfsburg are competing for Europe for the first time in a while and Leverkusen has basically always been there. And of course that makes me vulnerable to anyone coming along saying "well you'll get used to Leipzig as well eventually". I guess that is true but I really don't want to. They just take everything that I may dislike about the other clubs and turn it up to eleven. So in the end I can live with clubs like Hoffenheim, Wolfsburg and Leverkusen. Hoffenheim I believe and hope will be gone in a couple of years. Wolfsburg will probably stay but I would be happy if they were to be replaced by a club like Bochum of St. Pauli or Dresden (all unlikely, but that is not the point). Leverkusen I actually kind of like to be honest, maybe because they have always been there since I have followed football and they have this endearing inability to win anything :lol:. But any way I look at it I just despise what has been built up in Leipzig. And yes, I will probably get used to them, even though it seems like an inevitability until they celebrate their first title in Red Bull merchandise which is a sickening thought. I would honestly prefer Bayern to win every title over them getting one. And the only thing I can think of that is worse than having Leipzig in the league is having more of their kind. With 50+1 probably falling eventually that is what we may be looking towards and then it's not "just one club".
  17. Oct 14, 2019

    Swarm Full Member

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    Well, there is a lot to unpack here and I am not sure how to tackle this without repeating myself a lot :lol:. To me this is a very cynical way to look at things and consequently I believe you are drawing incorrect conclusions but that is definitely open for debate. I will try to address a few points.

    This may already be the most crucial aspect and I will have to repeat things I already wrote in my first reply to you. For one thing I don't believe Leipzig were innovative in any way. They were neither the first team in Germany to mostly build a team from scratch (Hoffenheim did it similarly) nor were they the first ones to build a scouting network and establish farming teams. The only distinguishing factor from anybody else is an almost indefinite amount of money. Secondly I agree with you preferring clubs that innovate rather than standing still hoping the world won't change around them. That was one of the things that got Bayern to where they are now (and of course all those criminal activities ;)). That innovation is a lot more difficult to implement, if you have an existing squad and can't just fire everybody to rebuild. Additionally you have to stay in the league because otherwise you will lack the money for your rebuild. So the second advantage Leipzig had to their monetary situation was a ramp-up time, similar to Hoffenheim. They could just focus on what they did well (scout, buy young players, build a squad with a style of football in mind) without any constraints. Of course you can still feck that up but it is a hell of a lot easier than building a new team in Köln or Dresden. So to me Leipzig are all disruption and no innovation.

    I tend to agree with you here. Having too many former footballers with a lack of actual business experience in key positions may hamper a clubs abilities to see its on issues. I believe appointing these kinds of people for coach, DOF or even board positions can be sensible as long as it is paired with the necessary expertise brought in by others. I will take Dortmund as an example because I know their structures best: having a former player like Zorc as a DOF is definitely a positive thing but you also need someone like Watzke who is capable handling the financial side of things. I actually think this works quite well for most clubs but of course you have some situations where it goes a bit haywire (Hamburg, Stuttgart, even at Bayern recently). The influence of accomplished former players can definitely quite negative (how many times was Uwe Seeler "worried about his HSV"?). I still don't think this is something that Leipzig do a lot better than others, it works decently at a lot of other clubs and Leipzip also employ former players like Krösche. Fun fact on the side: A lot of money also buys you the best coaches/sporting directors/DOFs/managers.

    This is where we will probably never agree. What you are essentially saying is that Leipzig took everything that I dislike about football and made it their brand. Just letting football be the publicity vehicle it was always intended to be. The difference to my own team is that it was originally founded as a football club. Is it hypocritical of me to pride myself with that considering the monetary dependencies Dortmund have nowadays? Sure, probably. I don't like that either and I sure won't celebrate anybody for taking the last bit of heart out of the sport.

    What really grinds my gears is people saying Leipzig did anything brilliant or novel. They just took what other clubs have done, amped it up with a lot of money and by exploiting the weaknesses of the national and international footballing associations. And they didn't prioritize long term over short term thinking because they are so fecking brilliant but because they could afford to. I will repeat: They are doing a very good job with what they are doing. But it is not innovative and I hate it's implications. Side note: I don't think there is a single player that is "where [he] is because of Leipzig". They poach the players from the academies of other teams (yes, much like other clubs like Dortmund), chances are they would have all fared the same, just somewhere else.

    Of course it is not supposed to be a democracy but it also feels bad to have some despot decide we have to put up with Leipzig :) And I agree with your second to last statement, it is a lot about strategy. The last one I am not so sure about, I would love to see them try to pull off what Freiburg is doing on their budget. The thing is, unfortunately if managing a club is what is the only thing happening in the Bundesliga then Leipzig are playing a very different sport compared to the other teams. And I don't like it.
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2019
  18. Oct 14, 2019

    Borussin Full Member

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    wow, a little sad to see a German football fan say they prefer a club like Manchester City (I'm presuming that is the city you refer to!). A team who's sole reason for being these days, is as a sportswashing PR exercise for a truly horrible regime in Abu Dhabi. Generally German fans seem to have a very strong moral compass, so yeah, that's a little dissapointing, as yours may be very off - unless you truly didn't realise who owns Manchester City! (And if that is the case, maybe read up on it, and I can assure you, you will not prefer them afterwards, if you are, as I am sure you are, a decent human).

    @Swarm covered the rest of it brilliantly.
  19. Oct 14, 2019

    kaiser1 New Member

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    Bayern Munich
    Many Bundesliga clubs already enjoy sponsorship from Qatar and UAE. Fly Emirates was the long term sponsor of Hamburg, Madrid, Arsenal Benfica Qatar airways are one of the sponsors of Bayern
  20. Oct 14, 2019

    Borussin Full Member

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    Oh I know, and it's a damn shame, but the difference is, they aren't used solely for sportswashing like City are, and of course are not owned by these emirate states. Another reason why I hope 50+1 remains as it is, it'd be a dark day if these scum owners get their dirty hands on clubs in Germany. Bad enough the sponshorships some have. And yes, I find the irony when I see clubs like Bayern proudly displaying the LGBT banners, while taking the money of Qatar
  21. Oct 14, 2019

    Zehner Full Member

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    Bayer 04 Leverkusen
    You're right, City's owners respectively the close relatives of the sheik are downright disgusting human beings. I was focusing on the monetary aspect because IMO City currently is the best managed club in the world and invests the fundings they receive perfectly.

    That aside few clubs have moral restraints when it comes to accepting oil money. So yeah, I think the double moral is much more extreme than you're willing to admit. If you're consequent with that approach you shouldn't even accept fees from City, PSG and co. But I doubt you criticized Dortmund for selling Gündogan or Diallo.

    So I completely disagree when you say German fans generally have a good moral compass. They are usually superficial, self rightieous and rarely challenge common perceptions, e. g. the idea that foreign clubs are always in high debts etc. That's not a 'good moral compass' but self reasoning. Looking for excuses why many foreign clubs are ahead.

    Anyway, Leipzig isn't owned by some Sheikh nor do they harm anyone.

    @Swarm I'll answer when I've got a bit more time.
  22. Oct 14, 2019

    uamini Full Member

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    Berlin
    To me the main difference between Leipzig and the likes of Hoffenheim, Wolfsburg, etc. is that it serves a need - bringing good quality Bundesliga football to East Germany.
    And yes, I know the usual rebuttal to this: they're not a homegrown team and are not accepted by so-called true fans. However I believe their approach was the only way you'd ever get to build a strong team in that region.
    We've had 28 years of reunited Bundesliga and the only former GDR teams that were able to stick around for a little while were traditional underdogs, even by East German standards: Cottbus and Rostock, coming from poorly developed rural areas with little to no economic power. Big market teams were unable to recreate their former glory, whether in Dresden, Leipzig or East Berlin. Yes, Union is doing well now but even they've always had that underdog label, first playing second fiddle to Dynamo Berlin and now positioning themselves as Hertha's cooler little brother.
    The two Dynamos and what's left of Leipzig's teams however seem to be stuck in a perpetual loop of mediocrity, partly fueled by a sense of entitlement that is solely based on past achievements.
    This is why basing RB's team in Saxony was such a brilliant move. Sure, older fans will scoff at this newcomer but kids in Leipzig and surrounding areas are now growing up with RB being the only strong team in their area so you know a lot of them will grow up to be fans.
    It really is the logical conclusion to what has happened to the region. The very same clubs complaining about RB's lack of tradition were the ones robbing East German clubs of their best players once the wall came down; and I'm pretty sure there would be no RB Leipzig if Dynamo Dresden and Lokomotive Leipzig were Bundesliga teams.
  23. Oct 18, 2019

    Yagami Full Member

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    That would've been an incredible counter attacking goal from Eintracht
  24. Oct 19, 2019

    FootballHQ Full Member

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    Aston Villa
    Bayern losing again, shame Dortmund can never seem to take advantage and build commanding lead.
  25. Oct 19, 2019

    GhastlyHun Full Member

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    Bayern München
    :lol:
    At least that Augsburg dude is in my FF team.

    Doesn't look too good for Süle there. Feck sake, this match day has started well.
  26. Oct 19, 2019

    GhastlyHun Full Member

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    Bayern München
    Gnabry to Lewandowski, 1-1. At least those two just continue their streaks.
  27. Oct 19, 2019

    van der star newprawn warrior Scout

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    Dec 2, 2012
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    San Siro
    Lewa showing ballon d'or form this season.
  28. Oct 19, 2019

    do.ob Full Member

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    Has Koubek been the worst transfer of the season so far? Feels like I've seen more than half a dozens goals already where he at the very least looked unfortunate.
  29. Oct 19, 2019

    GhastlyHun Full Member

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    Gnabry scores, 2-1.
  30. Oct 19, 2019

    VorZakone What would Kenny G do?

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    Gnabry has turned into some player hasn't he.
  31. Oct 19, 2019

    GhastlyHun Full Member

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    His form is ridiculous, he just keeps smashing them in.
  32. Oct 19, 2019

    GhastlyHun Full Member

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    Pizarro coming on. Turned 41 two weeks ago :lol:
  33. Oct 19, 2019

    GhastlyHun Full Member

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    Müller misses alone in front of the keeper, and now Augsburg equalized :lol:
  34. Oct 19, 2019

    hellhunter New Member

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    Neuer's raised arm is killing me.
  35. Oct 19, 2019

    DavidDeSchmikes Full Member

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    5 points between 1st and 10th
  36. Oct 19, 2019

    King Andow New Member

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    Jan 6, 2014
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    Location:
    Brazil
    Live in 30 minutes:

    Dortmund: Bürki – Hakimi, Akanji, Hummels, Schulz – Weigl, Witsel, Delaney - Hazard, Reus (c), Brandt
    Subs: Hitz, Zagadou, Dahoud, Guerreiro, Leonardo Balerdi, Morey, Piszczek, Bruun Larsen
    Out: Alcacer (Achilles tendon), Piszczek (torn muscle), Sancho (not included)
    Coach: Lucien Favre

    Gladbach: Sommer (c) – Lainer, Jantschke, Elvedi, Wendt – Benes, Kramer, Zakaria – Thuram, Plea, Embolo
    Subs: Grün, Herrmann, Stindl, Beyer, Hofmann, Bensebaini, Neuhaus, Poulsen, Makridis
    Out: Bennetts (thigh), Ginter (shoulder), Johnson (groin), Strobl (knee), Traore (ankle)
    Coach: Marco Rose
  37. Oct 19, 2019

    Suedesi Full Member

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    New York City
    I'm enjoying the two Borussia's going at each other. Anything to numb the dull pain of Man Utd.
  38. Oct 19, 2019

    Suedesi Full Member

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    New York City
    Hazard with a great eye of the needle pass for Marco Reus who slides it through an incoming Sommer.

    Let's see Gladbach's response
  39. Oct 19, 2019

    Walters_19_MuFc Full Member

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    Sep 3, 2013
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    Location:
    Birmingham
    I'm hearing Sancho has been dropped?
  40. Oct 19, 2019

    DomesticTadpole Doom-monger obsessed with Herrera & the M.E.N.

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    Barrow In Furness
    Yes. He showed up late from England duty so was dropped. Club policy.