Bundesliga 19/20

Zehner

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It seems you guys are all experts regarding the support culture in Germany and closely follow every choreo that happens in every stadium in the league. Do you really think anybody would give a shit if it was just one occurrence? Do you really think "Hurensohn" is not a common word chanted by German supporters? Come on.
 

Zehner

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Its not about money but football culture. Its probably the last (prolonged) fight of these fans to uphold their fan culture against an ever continuing erosion of it by the league and many club bosses/functionary/officials/investors. This probably doesn't bother most people who watch football primarily on TV or occasionally from a nice seat/VIP-box (like me). Yet I certainly don't expect those fans just to lie down and wait to get replaced. Pushing these fans out has an impact on atmosphere and stadium culture (for the better and the worse) and football clubs.

Hoffenheim is more or less an empty shell. Its like creating a new franchise (Inter Miami) in US leagues, but that goes against anything these fans want football to be. There are rules that are specifically created to prevent that, but the league bend over backwards to allow it anyway. The league functionaries prefer nice clubs like Hoffenheim (with a rich investor) over more difficult clubs with fans, that don't just clap slowly for 15 seconds after a goal. Yet for fans 50+1 is one of the most important rules, that ensures that they can keep some of their influence. Hoffenheim and Leipzig are two blue prints for a different model; one where fans have no say and are not needed. For these clubs stadium going fans are decoration and not an important part of the club.

Hamburg, Kaiserslautern, Stuttgart, 1860, and many other traditional clubs deserve to be where they are yet they still have an active fan scene in and around the club thats very different from what Hoffenheim has.

That's a very nice depiction of those people. Just poor fans who fear to be replaced in a commercialised world. I guess you never really came in contact with those folks?
 

Andycoleno9

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What have Hoffenheim and Leipzig done for the league? Bundesliga's pitch is authentic football with big and enthusiastic crowds, e.g. Frankfurt showing up with 20k fans abroad, plastic clubs go completely against that.
And this isn't about Hamburg and Stuttgart in particular, that's a fat straw man, those two got themselves relegated with bad management, they got what they deserved, no one is arguing that rules should be bent for them.

How are they even showing how to run a football club? Should Bayern expel all its members bar 13 and run a network of feeder clubs? Perhaps FC Bayern Qatar is Rummenigge's next step in his ambition to improve human rights in the region? Wouldn't it be great if traditional rich European football clubs take a page out of Leipzig's book and start colonizing the Americas, Asia and Africa?

How is Hopp pumping €400m into a village club different from City's people pumping €2bn into an established PL club? It's just a smaller scale.

How is buying entire youth teams from other club great for the region? How is Hoffenheim's great youth work paying off when the only notable player that came through their academy is Süle, who played for both Frankfurt and Darmstadt before they signed him?

How is Hoffenheim's region one that has been ignored for to long when Stuttgart is 60km away and Karlsruhe even less? Hopefully some kind and benevolent billionaire will open up a club in Bad Wiessee to help the football starved region around Munich? RB doesn't give two shits about Eastern Germany, they tried to buy in at St. Pauli, 1860 Munich and Düsseldorf, before eventually picking Leipzig.
Why should Bayern look how other clubs are run if it is legal? Who are you? Morale police? Maybe you lot should write rules for German league. 10 Bayern commandments.
You always try to "learn" others what is good and what is not. Hoeness had public lecture to Mourinho how he should manage Schweinsteiger. Two years ago you were saying how it is not ok for football to spend 100mil on one player ( but it was ok to spend 150 mil on 3 players).

You as a club are biggest hypocrites in modern football
 

PedroMendez

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the other Santa Teresa
That's a very nice depiction of those people. Just poor fans who fear to be replaced in a commercialised world. I guess you never really came in contact with those folks?
Only a litte but that is already enough for me. I also don't agree with their behavior. I still don't think that the depiction of them here or in the media is correct. They don't want that football clubs are owned by a few people/companies. They want to make sure that fans keep their voice and thats only possible when they have at least in principle a way to influence club decisions.

Thats at least on paper still the rule. There were also plenty of protests against Kind/Hannover. Either you keep 50+1 or you don't. Whenever it mattered, the league ignored these rules.

How exactly do you expect football fans to stand up/protest for their positions? When they protest in uncontroversial/nice ways everybody is just ignoring them. Nobody, including the media, is actually backing them up. Its convenient to restrict their protests to forms, that have no effect and get outraged about it otherwise.
 

Lyricist

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Why should Bayern look how other clubs are run if it is legal? Who are you? Morale police? Maybe you lot should write rules for German league. 10 Bayern commandments.
You always try to "learn" others what is good and what is not. Hoeness had public lecture to Mourinho how he should manage Schweinsteiger. Two years ago you were saying how it is not ok for football to spend 100mil on one player ( but it was ok to spend 150 mil on 3 players).

You as a club are biggest hypocrites in modern football
Isn't he a Dortmund fan?
 

DomesticTadpole

Doom-monger obsessed with Herrera & the M.E.N.
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Protest now in the Union Berlin/Wolfsburg game. Second one of the game, first one they just got rid of the banner. Berlin players pleaded for banner to be taken down again, it wasn't, so players gone off the pitch.
 

SweetRightFoot

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Protest now in the Union Berlin/Wolfsburg game. Second one of the game, first one they just got rid of the banner. Berlin players pleaded for banner to be taken down again, it wasn't, so players gone off the pitch.
'This is a reminder to all fans that any non-prescribed opinions will result in the cancellation of all football. Thank you for your time and remember, 'Think Correctly!'.

Sad stuff, just play on for Christ's sake.
 

DomesticTadpole

Doom-monger obsessed with Herrera & the M.E.N.
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'This is a reminder to all fans that any non-prescribed opinions will result in the cancellation of all football. Thank you for your time and remember, 'Think Correctly!'.

Sad stuff, just play on for Christ's sake.
A warning now given out, that if it happens a third time the game will be abandoned. Just hope they look at racist incidents and homophobia in the same way.
 

uamini

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Okay, we've now reached a rather silly version of "who blinks first?". It's gone from removing death threats to insults to now stopping play for any kind of criticism. At some point the league is going to have to define what exactly it wants to forbid. And it's pretty easy for fans now, show your banners twice and you're basically okay.
 

Swarm

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Borussia Dortmund
I was debating for a few days now whether I want to weigh in on this because it will inevitably be a very tedious discussion and I feel somewhat strongly about this whole affair, especially when people are forming ill-informed opinions or simply look at a single facet of an issue. I will try to just state my opinion here and refrain from a full on discussion for my own sanity :lol:

Let me first state that I am not really a fan of insulting people when trying to get (potentially valid) points across and feelings of all involved should be respected. I am however also aware of the reality that not everybody will always be 100% appropriate in voicing their grievances, especially in a matter as passionately followed as football. It is a reality that people are abusive at football games, be it towards players, opposition fans, the ref or members of the opposition club. I don't think that is a good thing but I think if we want to achieve change that will probably only work gradually and only to a certain extent.
There are a few things that should be cracked down upon such as racism, sexism, homophobia and antisemitism. These are also issues and the stadium is not a separated place where these issues are present, it reflects issues within society. Additionally I think insults towards singular people are worse than insulting a group of people (in the sense of supporters, not racial groups etc. of course!), I am sure that it feels a lot worse to be singled out to be insulted by a group of people than I feel when I get called a Hurensohn for being a Dortmund supporter - I don't give a shit.

So let's get to the Hopp topic. I have stated my opinion about clubs like Hoffenheim and Leipzig (and yes, to varying extent Wolfsburg and Leverkusen as well) before. I will just state that they are to me the distillation of everything that is wrong with modern football. That does not mean that I will always condone what my club does or that everything is black and white. I am not a fan of the domination of money in football, but I lieve with it as we all do. That does not mean I can't criticize things or people or clubs that to me further erode my enjoyment of the professional sport.
That being said, Hopp and his club have been antagonized quite early on. Not as harshly as Leipzig have and I think that was the case for a few reasons. For one thing I do believe that Hopp is genuinely a football fan and wanted to do something good for his hometown club. Secondly Hoffenheim was the first club that was bought up from the lower leagues to be this successful and I think fans needed a while to understand what exactly was happening.

So how did insults against Hopp start? Basically how I just described it. I mentioned he wanted a Bundesliga club from his home town. To me he put his own interests before those of others (I'd wager there are more people that would want Hamburg in the league than there are fans that want to see Hoffenheim and no, people that hate HSV are not subtracted ;) ) and peole were within their right to criticize him for it. Personally I don't know the guy, so he might be a swell person (maybe aside from downplaying his family's nazi past), but I don't like his involvement in football. What he does with the rest of his money - apparently he gives a lot to charity - I couldn't care less about, it does not change my opinion in this matter.
The way the criticism was handled in the stands was unsurprisingly mixed. There were some witty and clever banners and of course some that went over the top and beyond. Especially threatening Hopp was not okay and I understand it, when people are criticizing it. This was the point where Hopp made his first mistake in my opinion, he sued fans from the stands. He was within his legal right to do so (I don't know how those lawsuits ended) and I can somewhat understand it from his point of view but it definitely escalated the situation. I believe if he hadn't taken legal action the criticism of the club would have focused a lot less on him. He is not the owner of the club which he is being described here a lot, he even reduced his financial involvement a few years back. The fans fixation on him stems from his own thin-skinnednes (again, understandable but not very clever) and that is what is being escalated now.

The situation now stems from a sanction that was imposed on Dortmund in the end of 2018, they were put on "parole" and if they were to insult Hopp again they would face match bans. Now new banners have appeared and Dortmund supporters are banned from away games in Hoffenheim for the next two years. This is in direct violation of the DFB's promise of not imposing collective punishment anymore. This is what most of the outrage stems from, it is not about Hopp, at least not at the core.

So what do I think about the discourse these days and the people involved?

The fans in the stands: I agree with their criticism, not necessarily with the way it is being carried out. I dislike Hopp's involvement and it should be possible to voice the opinion that you want him to end his involvement. I strongly disagree with the DFB's actions, collective punishment is almost always a bad idea and it just seems a little telling that they employ it when a billionaire speaks up but not when players of color do for example. I think the banners at the Union game today are a good example of my views here, there were two instances where banners were shown. In the first instance it said "You abolished collective punishment, but then you wanted to please Hopp and took two steps back. feck you DFB!" (roughly). I can fully support this message, nobody was threatened and the message was clear. I don't mind the "feck you" part either because it was towards a legal body and not a particular person. In the second instance it was again Hopp in crosshairs and a banner that just said "Son of a whore". That I don't agree with because it simply does not help the discussion and devalues the point made before.

The media (mostly Sky)/the DFB: I am lumping these two together because my opinion is basically the same. Neither seem to be willing to even try to understand what the underlying issues are in this matter. Fans are demonized and people call for a zero tolerance policy. Why now, why here? I don't know but I think some of the opinions and the knee-jerk calling the fans idiots just don't help anybody and will further escalate the conflict. The fans (at least the ultra scene in clubs that has one) seem quite united, this weekend we had banners by Bayern, Dortmund, Cologne, Gladbach, Union and Bochum fans and I am sure I am forgetting some. So this approach will just further escalate the situation until somebody starts to form a more differentiated opinion on the matter. I would wager that at least one match will have to be abandoned before this shitshow is over.

Players/officials: I have not really heard anybody speak out in favor or at least trying to understand the fans but I understand that it could become quite problematic for them if they did.

Dietmar Hopp: He just stated that he "has no idea why these idiots keep insulting" him. That means he is either lying or an utter moron. He could be the bigger man and try to deescalate but he clearly isn't. Understandable but still not great. And saying this reminds him of the dark times in Germany isn't exactly helping his cause.

Alright, very long story short, I find most of the televised and reported reactions to this mess unhelpful to nauseating and expect this whole situation to blow even more out of proportion than it already has.
 

RoyH1

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The problem with this situation is that if the fans blink, who knows where it will stop?
In a couple of seasons you might have games stopped because the referee got called a "a blind piece of sh*t" by the fans.

If Hopp had thicker skin this would be a non issue. The reaction of the german federation is completely over the top.
 

SportingCP96

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Even football is starting to be like the modern soft generation of people whose feelings get hurt for everything.
 

uamini

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Now Schalke issued a statement that they'll stop playing as soon as a single banner shows up. Well that escalated quickly...
 

do.ob

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That's a very nice depiction of those people. Just poor fans who fear to be replaced in a commercialised world. I guess you never really came in contact with those folks?
No doubt Ultras can often be idiots, especially when it comes to pyro and the choice of words, but:

Who creates the atmosphere that DFL and DFB are so happy to sell?
Who creates the choreos that clubs love to show off in the CL?
Who spoke up when ticket prices were going up?
Who spoke up when Hoffenheim and Leipzig were making a mockery out of 50+1?
Who spoke up when the DFL fecked match-going fans with monday night kickoffs?
Who speaks up against Clubs doing propaganda for Qatar and Saudi-Arabia?
Who speaks up against racism in football stadiums? While Tönnies gets a slap on the wrist and our honourable reformer DFB president say "racism has been a thing for longer in the Netherlands and England"?
 

VBI

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There's something seriously wrong with German football if they are actually stopping games because someone had a banner insulting some poor little billionaire. And in some cases, he isn't even directly the whole point of the protest. WTF is that? That Bayern Hoffenheim stuff was embarrassing, how can they do that? Why are the actual players and managers being involved in this at all? Makes zero sense. Is it against German law to call someone a son of a whore, regardless of how lowbrow it is?
 

Atze-Peng

Dortmund Fan
Joined
Nov 8, 2011
Messages
480
I was debating for a few days now whether I want to weigh in on this because it will inevitably be a very tedious discussion and I feel somewhat strongly about this whole affair, especially when people are forming ill-informed opinions or simply look at a single facet of an issue. I will try to just state my opinion here and refrain from a full on discussion for my own sanity :lol:

Let me first state that I am not really a fan of insulting people when trying to get (potentially valid) points across and feelings of all involved should be respected. I am however also aware of the reality that not everybody will always be 100% appropriate in voicing their grievances, especially in a matter as passionately followed as football. It is a reality that people are abusive at football games, be it towards players, opposition fans, the ref or members of the opposition club. I don't think that is a good thing but I think if we want to achieve change that will probably only work gradually and only to a certain extent.
There are a few things that should be cracked down upon such as racism, sexism, homophobia and antisemitism. These are also issues and the stadium is not a separated place where these issues are present, it reflects issues within society. Additionally I think insults towards singular people are worse than insulting a group of people (in the sense of supporters, not racial groups etc. of course!), I am sure that it feels a lot worse to be singled out to be insulted by a group of people than I feel when I get called a Hurensohn for being a Dortmund supporter - I don't give a shit.

So let's get to the Hopp topic. I have stated my opinion about clubs like Hoffenheim and Leipzig (and yes, to varying extent Wolfsburg and Leverkusen as well) before. I will just state that they are to me the distillation of everything that is wrong with modern football. That does not mean that I will always condone what my club does or that everything is black and white. I am not a fan of the domination of money in football, but I lieve with it as we all do. That does not mean I can't criticize things or people or clubs that to me further erode my enjoyment of the professional sport.
That being said, Hopp and his club have been antagonized quite early on. Not as harshly as Leipzig have and I think that was the case for a few reasons. For one thing I do believe that Hopp is genuinely a football fan and wanted to do something good for his hometown club. Secondly Hoffenheim was the first club that was bought up from the lower leagues to be this successful and I think fans needed a while to understand what exactly was happening.

So how did insults against Hopp start? Basically how I just described it. I mentioned he wanted a Bundesliga club from his home town. To me he put his own interests before those of others (I'd wager there are more people that would want Hamburg in the league than there are fans that want to see Hoffenheim and no, people that hate HSV are not subtracted ;) ) and peole were within their right to criticize him for it. Personally I don't know the guy, so he might be a swell person (maybe aside from downplaying his family's nazi past), but I don't like his involvement in football. What he does with the rest of his money - apparently he gives a lot to charity - I couldn't care less about, it does not change my opinion in this matter.
The way the criticism was handled in the stands was unsurprisingly mixed. There were some witty and clever banners and of course some that went over the top and beyond. Especially threatening Hopp was not okay and I understand it, when people are criticizing it. This was the point where Hopp made his first mistake in my opinion, he sued fans from the stands. He was within his legal right to do so (I don't know how those lawsuits ended) and I can somewhat understand it from his point of view but it definitely escalated the situation. I believe if he hadn't taken legal action the criticism of the club would have focused a lot less on him. He is not the owner of the club which he is being described here a lot, he even reduced his financial involvement a few years back. The fans fixation on him stems from his own thin-skinnednes (again, understandable but not very clever) and that is what is being escalated now.

The situation now stems from a sanction that was imposed on Dortmund in the end of 2018, they were put on "parole" and if they were to insult Hopp again they would face match bans. Now new banners have appeared and Dortmund supporters are banned from away games in Hoffenheim for the next two years. This is in direct violation of the DFB's promise of not imposing collective punishment anymore. This is what most of the outrage stems from, it is not about Hopp, at least not at the core.

So what do I think about the discourse these days and the people involved?

The fans in the stands: I agree with their criticism, not necessarily with the way it is being carried out. I dislike Hopp's involvement and it should be possible to voice the opinion that you want him to end his involvement. I strongly disagree with the DFB's actions, collective punishment is almost always a bad idea and it just seems a little telling that they employ it when a billionaire speaks up but not when players of color do for example. I think the banners at the Union game today are a good example of my views here, there were two instances where banners were shown. In the first instance it said "You abolished collective punishment, but then you wanted to please Hopp and took two steps back. feck you DFB!" (roughly). I can fully support this message, nobody was threatened and the message was clear. I don't mind the "feck you" part either because it was towards a legal body and not a particular person. In the second instance it was again Hopp in crosshairs and a banner that just said "Son of a whore". That I don't agree with because it simply does not help the discussion and devalues the point made before.

The media (mostly Sky)/the DFB: I am lumping these two together because my opinion is basically the same. Neither seem to be willing to even try to understand what the underlying issues are in this matter. Fans are demonized and people call for a zero tolerance policy. Why now, why here? I don't know but I think some of the opinions and the knee-jerk calling the fans idiots just don't help anybody and will further escalate the conflict. The fans (at least the ultra scene in clubs that has one) seem quite united, this weekend we had banners by Bayern, Dortmund, Cologne, Gladbach, Union and Bochum fans and I am sure I am forgetting some. So this approach will just further escalate the situation until somebody starts to form a more differentiated opinion on the matter. I would wager that at least one match will have to be abandoned before this shitshow is over.

Players/officials: I have not really heard anybody speak out in favor or at least trying to understand the fans but I understand that it could become quite problematic for them if they did.

Dietmar Hopp: He just stated that he "has no idea why these idiots keep insulting" him. That means he is either lying or an utter moron. He could be the bigger man and try to deescalate but he clearly isn't. Understandable but still not great. And saying this reminds him of the dark times in Germany isn't exactly helping his cause.

Alright, very long story short, I find most of the televised and reported reactions to this mess unhelpful to nauseating and expect this whole situation to blow even more out of proportion than it already has.

This.

Also I want to add that the official seems to forget who is paying their bills. All the big sponsorships come from viewership. And viewership gets increased by the effort the Ultras put into atmospheres, choreographies, etc.

Instead we have officials who compare calling someone a son of a whore to a killing of people (the Hanau statement), a billionaire who compares himself to the victims of the nazis (despite his father being part of the nazis) and a football organisation who is trying to take out all passion from football. Generally this seems to be a common phenomenon in our current state of society. Where business branches appear to have lost any grasp of who is paying their millions/billions and rather than delivering the product/service that is asked for, go so far to not just ignore the customer, but at times even insult them (hello entertainment-industry). Politicians more often than not do the same. And the outcome is the same. When you piss off people long enough, the backlash will be even stronger. It's no coincidence that other clubs fans side with the Dortmund fans - including fans of clubs that are rather competitive towards Dortmund.

All that would be needed of the officials would be to get in touch with their consumer-base. Have an open debate not just with the ultras, but generally with the audience (which naturally includes the ultras). To actually listen to the concerns and take them into consideration and then stick to their promises. Obviously that clearly isn't desired by said officials. You are expected to pay, but have no right to give a statement of what you want the product to be like. The arrogance in this is beyond ridiculous. I may be old fashioned, but I grew up with the mindset that the customer is king.
And it seems like the boiling point has been reached. You can push people around a lot for a long time, but there is a point where it becomes too much. It seems like we are reaching this point - or have already. This will only escalate further until the DFB officials are finally doing what they are meant to do. It's not even really about Hopp. He is just too dumb and/or egocentric to understand how to deescalate this situation ever since Hoffenheim reached the Bundesliga. In the end he is a mere symbol for everything that fans feel like is wrong in the current development of modern football.
 

Blackwidow

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Oct 8, 2011
Messages
6,270
There's something seriously wrong with German football if they are actually stopping games because someone had a banner insulting some poor little billionaire. And in some cases, he isn't even directly the whole point of the protest. WTF is that? That Bayern Hoffenheim stuff was embarrassing, how can they do that? Why are the actual players and managers being involved in this at all? Makes zero sense. Is it against German law to call someone a son of a whore, regardless of how lowbrow it is?
It is a 79-year-old human who gets insulted since 2008, partly with banners that wish him dead. Maybe he is somebody without a face elsewhere, but in Hoffenheim you saw how the whole story gets to him.
Does empathy stop when somebody has money? It is just not that one banners but a sum of banners were he was wished dead or where his face was in the center of a target.

The insults etc. just have reached a culmination point.

And yes, it is part of a power struggle where some ultra groups try to force their own interests over the interests of other fans and the clubs.

Yes, like do.ob told, a lot of ultra groups do very good things for football and there clubs, too. And I think that that is appreciated, too, and because of that most clubs try to work together with them.

But that still does not make them being the center of all... or to give them the right to make everybody their hostage.

The Dortmund Ultras were warned long enough, the club got fined, the collective punishment was first announced on probation. That did not stop the idiots. They still did not care about what that would mean to the club and the other fans!

The Bayern players played great Saturday afternoon. That all got in the background because of that and this so called fans risked the discontinuation of that match and that the match would be counted as an 0:2 loss.

The ultras aren't the consumerbase. They actually estrange them from the other fans right now.

Tell me in which other country the clubs do more for the fans. No, not everything is fanfriendly because the clubs struggle between economical and fan interests.
 
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Swarm

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There is a new poll on the kicker homepage since yesterday that perfectly sums up the coverage of the situation by some media. The question is how people propose that the fans actions should be dealt with in the future. The options to answer are
  • Punishment for the clubs (abandonment of games, deduction of points, fines, etc.)
  • Collective punishment (partial exclusion of fans, prohibition of standing bleachers, prohibition of banners, etc.)
  • Individual punishment of perpetrators (stadium ban, legal action, etc.)
To me this is absolutely baffeling. Nobody cares why things happen that are happening and how the situation can be resolved. All we need to know is how to best punish the fans. Fecking nauseating.

Edit: The poll asks how to deal with "hate and agitation" by fans, so that is generally something I don't condone either but the question still alienates anybody that thinks this matter should be looked at with a lot more differentiation and does not help the situation one bit.
 

Kostur

海尔的老板
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Messages
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Poland, Kraków
There is a new poll on the kicker homepage since yesterday that perfectly sums up the coverage of the situation by some media. The question is how people propose that the fans actions should be dealt with in the future. The options to answer are
  • Punishment for the clubs (abandonment of games, deduction of points, fines, etc.)
  • Collective punishment (partial exclusion of fans, prohibition of standing bleachers, prohibition of banners, etc.)
  • Individual punishment of perpetrators (stadium ban, legal action, etc.)
To me this is absolutely baffeling. Nobody cares why things happen that are happening and how the situation can be resolved. All we need to know is how to best punish the fans. Fecking nauseating.

Edit: The poll asks how to deal with "hate and agitation" by fans, so that is generally something I don't condone either but the question still alienates anybody that thinks this matter should be looked at with a lot more differentiation and does not help the situation one bit.
Not sure what's baffling about it really. Should the poll be about how/if to get rid of Hopp? People don't like the way Hoffe or RB were built, sure, fair enough, we don't like our oil clubs either. There's a difference between saying Hopp raus and exercising some protesting measures, and constantly calling somebody a son of a whore. The whole shit wouldn't be as escalated as it is if some BVB fans didn't get butthurt that somebody DARED to sue them which resulted in stadium bans. Boo-hoo, go try calling somebody a son of a whore in the street numerous times and let's see if he lets it slide as well.

As for the 'he's a billionaire so it's fine to insult him' (?) type of logic (???????). I mean, after all black football players are millionaires too, so I guess the same logic allows for racist abuse, right?
 

Swarm

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Borussia Dortmund
Not sure what's baffling about it really. Should the poll be about how/if to get rid of Hopp? People don't like the way Hoffe or RB were built, sure, fair enough, we don't like our oil clubs either. There's a difference between saying Hopp raus and exercising some protesting measures, and constantly calling somebody a son of a whore. The whole shit wouldn't be as escalated as it is if some BVB fans didn't get butthurt that somebody DARED to sue them which resulted in stadium bans. Boo-hoo, go try calling somebody a son of a whore in the street numerous times and let's see if he lets it slide as well.
I am not entirely surprised but still find the level of bias, in this case particularly by kicker magazine that I usually find quite respectable, to be a bit baffling. I generally agree that insults are not okay and that some of the threats coming from the stands were way over the line but I really don't feel like that is what is of the essence here. The opposite of indiscriminately yelling for punishment is not to get rid of Hopp but to address or even acknowledge the existence of criticism that is brought forward by the fans. As mentioned before, I don't agree with the way the fans air their grievances but I do agree with the essence (I dislike what Hopp does with respect to Bundesliga football and the DFB's handling of the situation in conjunction with the collective punishment has been atrocious). To me it just seems that both DFB and parts of the sports media (kicker, Sky) seem quite content to just reduce the fans opinion to "just a couple of idiots ruining the fun for everyone". That is a narrative I despise and it is pushed by polls like the one mentioned.

As for the 'he's a billionaire so it's fine to insult him' (?) type of logic (???????). I mean, after all black football players are millionaires too, so I guess the same logic allows for racist abuse, right?
That is not my logic and I would ask you not to put borderline racist views into my mouth. Thank you very much.
 

Kostur

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I am not entirely surprised but still find the level of bias, in this case particularly by kicker magazine that I usually find quite respectable, to be a bit baffling. I generally agree that insults are not okay and that some of the threats coming from the stands were way over the line but I really don't feel like that is what is of the essence here. The opposite of indiscriminately yelling for punishment is not to get rid of Hopp but to address or even acknowledge the existence of criticism that is brought forward by the fans. As mentioned before, I don't agree with the way the fans air their grievances but I do agree with the essence (I dislike what Hopp does with respect to Bundesliga football and the DFB's handling of the situation in conjunction with the collective punishment has been atrocious). To me it just seems that both DFB and parts of the sports media (kicker, Sky) seem quite content to just reduce the fans opinion to "just a couple of idiots ruining the fun for everyone". That is a narrative I despise and it is pushed by polls like the one mentioned.



That is not my logic and I would ask you not to put borderline racist views into my mouth. Thank you very much.
To start with, take no offence as the bolded was not aimed at you, there're plenty of posts in this ilk which look pretty silly, just addressed it in the same post in which I responded to you, sorry for the confusion.

As for the other part of the post, I can only presume that your fans have had a go (rightly or wrongly, mind) at the media, kickers, Skys, you call it, so I don't find it weird that the same media now won't side with something that's obviously out of order. How do you think DFB or Hopp should react to the 'criticism' though? How should the voices be 'acknowledged'? To me, it just seems that a group of ultras think way too high of themselves and want a bit of power. We've got exactly the same problem in Poland where a bunch of fecking morons will do anything from trying to hound the owners, coaches, players (whatever the reason, 'we don't like the transfers', 'this player/manager played for X so he should feck off') and quite frankly as I age, I tire of their bullshit and they look like a bunch of losers to say the least.

There's the massive problem for me. There's a difference between voicing your opinion through chants, booing, protests, banners and straight out calling somebody names, sending death or otherwise threats through the same means, making it 'our way or highway' shit. I mean, why would a club owner or DFB listen to a bunch of frustrated people? Those who insult and throw shit very seldom come with any reasonable if not sane solutions to the problems they seem to be complaining about, that's why I find it more and more difficult to either side with those people or even treat them seriously, and I'm merely a bystander who much like them despise the media, some of the actions taken by the FAs of any sort, the government, you name it.

The media isn't wrong in that sense that it's just a bunch of morons voicing their opinion on matters in a certain way. In this case, it indeed is a bunch of morons who can only sling shit. If the other fans who have valid criticism of whatever the action then are perplexed that their reasoning is not listened to or considered, perhaps the first people they should criticise are the morons who are not interested in a civil discussion. Because the rhetoric that 'if you keep not listening to us, we'll not come to the stadia' is pretty funny to hear. And what happens next if you won't come to the stadia? I've seen it all in Poland, our ultras protesting, average attendances are low as feck anyway when compared with the stadium's capacity, still the money keeps pouring in to a shit league and once the teams bounce back, more people start coming to the stands anyway as they're seeing an opportunity to what you'd call a glory hunt. So in the end, from commercial and business point of view, the owner won't lose much, make it be through sponsorship deals or matchday revenue (which still pales in comparison with the former anyway). The players will play worse because there's no support? Perhaps, at the same time they won't have to hear time and time again insulting chants, oftentimes of which they have been the victims.

It's not really a discussion if you ask me. It's coming to the table with a square root of feck all, expecting God knows what. Again, football fans think too highly of their impact and of what they represent. Myself included, make no mistake. To repeat myself from this thread, I don't think that the handling of the whole thing was a smart idea in the first place, funnily enough.
 

Swarm

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To start with, take no offence as the bolded was not aimed at you, there're plenty of posts in this ilk which look pretty silly, just addressed it in the same post in which I responded to you, sorry for the confusion.
I think I kind of bent your statement to be able to be offended :lol: No hard feelings but when my post is quoted I feel addressed and that just really was the opposite of how I feel :)

As for the other part of the post, I can only presume that your fans have had a go (rightly or wrongly, mind) at the media, kickers, Skys, you call it, so I don't find it weird that the same media now won't side with something that's obviously out of order. How do you think DFB or Hopp should react to the 'criticism' though? How should the voices be 'acknowledged'? To me, it just seems that a group of ultras think way too high of themselves and want a bit of power. We've got exactly the same problem in Poland where a bunch of fecking morons will do anything from trying to hound the owners, coaches, players (whatever the reason, 'we don't like the transfers', 'this player/manager played for X so he should feck off') and quite frankly as I age, I tire of their bullshit and they look like a bunch of losers to say the least.
I think we generally see this issue similarly and my opinion in the matter is still forming in some regards as I delve into the pile of shit that it is. I bolded the part that I have come to think about a bit today, I have strongly criticized the way DFB have handled the situation but to be honest I don't really have a good answer to tha question. Right now it seems to be between "do nothing and ignore the issues at hand" and "collectively punish a group" of people, neither of which are appealing or sensible ways of going about it. I actually believe DFB have been teetering between the two for a while, they have been quite reluctant to sanction Dortmund (the first punishment was on "parole") so overall I can follow the reasoning of why they passed the sentence. What irks me is that all the banners - some with a valid point or message, some (too many) misdirected and hateful and rightly condemned - are thrown together and talked about like the absolute scum of the earth had come to the surface. I think it is a bit of a societal issue as well and I just don't think that simply ignoring the root of the issues at hand - alienation of fanbases anologously to parts of society being left behind, sanctions that are perceived as arbitrary - will lead to things getting any better. Yes there are drunk/uneducated/spiteful idiots in the stands but not all of them are and you can't take the voices of all of them away because you reasonably want to silence some. And if you do you should at least acknowledge what you are doing.

There's the massive problem for me. There's a difference between voicing your opinion through chants, booing, protests, banners and straight out calling somebody names, sending death or otherwise threats through the same means, making it 'our way or highway' shit. I mean, why would a club owner or DFB listen to a bunch of frustrated people? Those who insult and throw shit very seldom come with any reasonable if not sane solutions to the problems they seem to be complaining about, that's why I find it more and more difficult to either side with those people or even treat them seriously, and I'm merely a bystander who much like them despise the media, some of the actions taken by the FAs of any sort, the government, you name it.
I think we are mostly on the same page here, even if I don't necessarily mind a little harsher tone in stadiums (telling Hopp to feck off would be fine in my book, not very sophisticated but it you at least get the message across that his involvement is not well received by everyone). I just shortly want to adress the bolded part here, I don't like indiscriminately demonizing "the media", which is why I try to more precisely mention the media outlets I want to criticize. I think the media is very important and the way it is under attack in the age of Trump and his ilk is very worrying. I don't think you meant it that way, just wanted to mention it :)

The media isn't wrong in that sense that it's just a bunch of morons voicing their opinion on matters in a certain way. In this case, it indeed is a bunch of morons who can only sling shit. If the other fans who have valid criticism of whatever the action then are perplexed that their reasoning is not listened to or considered, perhaps the first people they should criticise are the morons who are not interested in a civil discussion. Because the rhetoric that 'if you keep not listening to us, we'll not come to the stadia' is pretty funny to hear. And what happens next if you won't come to the stadia? I've seen it all in Poland, our ultras protesting, average attendances are low as feck anyway when compared with the stadium's capacity, still the money keeps pouring in to a shit league and once the teams bounce back, more people start coming to the stands anyway as they're seeing an opportunity to what you'd call a glory hunt. So in the end, from commercial and business point of view, the owner won't lose much, make it be through sponsorship deals or matchday revenue (which still pales in comparison with the former anyway). The players will play worse because there's no support? Perhaps, at the same time they won't have to hear time and time again insulting chants, oftentimes of which they have been the victims.
I think this is the part I disagree with most, I just don't think it does any good to just dismiss a large group of people like this, there are not just bigoted assholes in the stand, it is a quite heterogeneous bunch and I personally agree with parts of their criticism if not with the way they do it. That some take themselves too seriously is of course true but personally I would be a bit bummed if the atmosphere in stadia suffered because people stopped coming, so I still believe fans are important to football. Of course they don't own the place though ;)

It's not really a discussion if you ask me. It's coming to the table with a square root of feck all, expecting God knows what. Again, football fans think too highly of their impact and of what they represent. Myself included, make no mistake. To repeat myself from this thread, I don't think that the handling of the whole thing was a smart idea in the first place, funnily enough.
Again, I think we are mostly on the same page, thanks for the reply.
 

do.ob

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As for the other part of the post, I can only presume that your fans have had a go (rightly or wrongly, mind) at the media, kickers, Skys, you call it, so I don't find it weird that the same media now won't side with something that's obviously out of order. How do you think DFB or Hopp should react to the 'criticism' though? How should the voices be 'acknowledged'? To me, it just seems that a group of ultras think way too high of themselves and want a bit of power. We've got exactly the same problem in Poland where a bunch of fecking morons will do anything from trying to hound the owners, coaches, players (whatever the reason, 'we don't like the transfers', 'this player/manager played for X so he should feck off') and quite frankly as I age, I tire of their bullshit and they look like a bunch of losers to say the least.
I don't recall organized fans being overly antagonistic towards Sky. This isn't about something like that. Sky are a) just trying to protect their product and b) morally corrupt, from spreading Hoffenheim/Leipzig PR talking points and propaganda, to doing a little sob story with Tönnies after his little racism break "oh poor Clemens, it's been so hard for you, but we're so happy to have you back now". They declare the same guy who threatened his employees with moving the company overseas when they wanted to establish a "Betriebsrat" [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council], something that's perfectly normal at most big(ger) companies, and who had some interesting ideas about his father's SA membership a saint.

There's the massive problem for me. There's a difference between voicing your opinion through chants, booing, protests, banners and straight out calling somebody names, sending death or otherwise threats through the same means, making it 'our way or highway' shit. I mean, why would a club owner or DFB listen to a bunch of frustrated people? Those who insult and throw shit very seldom come with any reasonable if not sane solutions to the problems they seem to be complaining about, that's why I find it more and more difficult to either side with those people or even treat them seriously, and I'm merely a bystander who much like them despise the media, some of the actions taken by the FAs of any sort, the government, you name it.
First of all the "death-threat" hasta la vista banners were definitely too far, Hopp was right to sue them and to my knowledge they have not been seen in stadiums since 2018, until they became a symbol of the protest again recently. I don't particularly like the use of crass language in stadiums and I think in some cases it's actually detrimental to the movements, because it alienates older people. But on the other hand I think it was Bayern's fans who said that they used harsh language deliberately, because without the shock element DFB would just try to sweep this under the carpet. At the heart this protest is about collective punishment, it's why fans from Bayern, who to my knowledge have not been that bothered with Hopp in the past, have not only joined in, but made the biggest and perhaps riskiest statement. This isn't necessarily about getting Hoffenheim thrown out, I think everyone understands that ship has sailed, it's about freedom of speech/protest, against collective punishment and against the hypocrisy of giving Hopp's ego more protection than victims of racism. A lot of these things could absolutely address some/all of these concerns in a reasonable fashion: they already promised that collective punishments were a thing of the past, which is probably a big reason why the fan reaction is so strong this time; they could [or really should, as even the media has picked that one up] easily acknowledge the concerns of hypocrisy and they could at least try to ensure fans that this isn't a case of censorship. But thus far their stance is that these people are animals.

The media isn't wrong in that sense that it's just a bunch of morons voicing their opinion on matters in a certain way. In this case, it indeed is a bunch of morons who can only sling shit. If the other fans who have valid criticism of whatever the action then are perplexed that their reasoning is not listened to or considered, perhaps the first people they should criticise are the morons who are not interested in a civil discussion. Because the rhetoric that 'if you keep not listening to us, we'll not come to the stadia' is pretty funny to hear. And what happens next if you won't come to the stadia? I've seen it all in Poland, our ultras protesting, average attendances are low as feck anyway when compared with the stadium's capacity, still the money keeps pouring in to a shit league and once the teams bounce back, more people start coming to the stands anyway as they're seeing an opportunity to what you'd call a glory hunt. So in the end, from commercial and business point of view, the owner won't lose much, make it be through sponsorship deals or matchday revenue (which still pales in comparison with the former anyway). The players will play worse because there's no support? Perhaps, at the same time they won't have to hear time and time again insulting chants, oftentimes of which they have been the victims.

It's not really a discussion if you ask me. It's coming to the table with a square root of feck all, expecting God knows what. Again, football fans think too highly of their impact and of what they represent. Myself included, make no mistake. To repeat myself from this thread, I don't think that the handling of the whole thing was a smart idea in the first place, funnily enough.
The thing is that if fans hold up a peaceful banner: "Hey DFB you promised to end collective punishment, but you used it again, that's not very nice!" then they will get ignored by both the broadcasters and the DFB. Their only alternatives I can think of would be stuff like disrupting gameplay (e.g. via throwing tennis balls, like they did in protest to monday night kick-offs or blowing whistles nonstop) or by staying silent for 15 minutes each game. The only way to get through is to hurt the product.

Things might that way in Poland, but they are different in Germany, when Ultras boycott the atmosphere the whole ground is silent. I don't know how well it's documented in internationally, but Martin Kind's quest to get around 50+1 and the rift with Hannover's organized fans that was caused by it is like a case study of how it can hurt a club to antagonize their organized fans. Ultimately the clubs are in charge of course, but if they treat their fans too badly they do still feel it.





"The state has to show a heavy hand. They have to do house searches, and they have to grab a few and put them in a cell for a day. That has always worked." - Hopp's lawyer. Maybe the Dietmar Hopp taskforce of Mannheim's police can do that.
 
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do.ob

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"Peace, love and Rasenball".. well.. except for Asians.


Public outrage to follow any second now.
 

Kostur

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@do.ob and @Swarm thanks for the responses guys, haven't read it yet as I'm currently moving places and I'm on my phone 24/7, will come back to you guys as soon as I'm settled.
 

RoyH1

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"The state has to show a heavy hand. They have to do house searches, and they have to grab a few and put them in a cell for a day. That has always worked." - Hopp's lawyer. Maybe the Dietmar Hopp taskforce of Mannheim's police can do that.
Wow. The moral of the story is don't go around hurting a billionaires feelings. I would expect to see this kind of owner protection somehwere like the US, but never in Germany.

I can see how a prosecutor could make a case that the Dortmund banner could be constituted as a death threat but in the case of the Bayern banner what would they accuse the fans of? Harsh language? Or libel since I'm assuming that Mr. Hopp's mother was not indeed at any point of her life dedicated to worlds oldest profession?
 

do.ob

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Wow. The moral of the story is don't go around hurting a billionaires feelings. I would expect to see this kind of owner protection somehwere like the US, but never in Germany.

I can see how a prosecutor could make a case that the Dortmund banner could be constituted as a death threat but in the case of the Bayern banner what would they accuse the fans of? Harsh language? Or libel since I'm assuming that Mr. Hopp's mother was not indeed at any point of her life dedicated to worlds oldest profession?

There has been a recent ruling against Renate Künast (politician), when she wanted to sue against being called a "piece of shit" and "dirty cnut", so I don't know where he law stands on the matter of "Hurensohn".
 

strongwalker

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I have been following this closely, thanks for the info regardless ;-) you know as well as me that the Ultra scenes don’t give a damn about being the bad guys... I expect this to continue for a while in one way or another.
They don't but they act political usually. Always on the edge (sometimes over it) but with a plan...

Wll they released a statement in the meantime claiming they used the wording explicitly to get noticed. That definitely worked :p.
Apart from the usual kneejerk reactions by the DFB and the other usual suspects (sky pundits, Bild, Hopps lawyer...) remarkably reflected and balanced dealing with the subject in the media. Many pointed out DfBs double standard morale when dealing with racism, homophobia opposed to dealing with an aggrieved billionaire.

...something good might come out of it after all. it is the DfB we are talking about, so not quickly of course, they are second only to the vatican when it comes to admitting own failures and adapting change...
 
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PowerOfDreams

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Football gone mad. 25 years from now we'll be watching matches with no referee on the pitch and the entire crowd will be singing Kumbaya.
 

RoyH1

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you will be required to remain silent about own team actions in order to hurt no ones feelings (team allegiance being checked by subcutaneous chip), also you may clap 3-5 times in appreciation when the opp. team scores.
Whistling at the opposing team will carry a 10.000 euro fine and mandatory sensitivity training too.
 

Atze-Peng

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So Bayern and Schalke are announcing if more insults are happening, they gonna leave the pit today: https://www.goal.com/de/meldungen/dfb-pokal-schalke-04-und-fc-bayern-wollen-bei-hass-plakaten/ppkg7abgp0ke16njjjbie0hni

This is beyond stupid (I would prefer using the r-word here as it is more appropriate to this level of stupidity). Where were their PR-agents when they decided this?
1. It is more than likely that the fan protests keep going for obvious reasons.
2. If they indeed leave the pit, they are just escalating the situation even more.
3. If they don't leave the pit, they are making themselves look like fools who are all bark, but no bite.
4. If they leave the pit, it becomes a legal question as the teams didn't provide the service the fans have paid for. I am not a legal expert, but I definitely see this possibility.
 

Blackwidow

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So Bayern and Schalke are announcing if more insults are happening, they gonna leave the pit today: https://www.goal.com/de/meldungen/dfb-pokal-schalke-04-und-fc-bayern-wollen-bei-hass-plakaten/ppkg7abgp0ke16njjjbie0hni

This is beyond stupid (I would prefer using the r-word here as it is more appropriate to this level of stupidity). Where were their PR-agents when they decided this?
1. It is more than likely that the fan protests keep going for obvious reasons.
2. If they indeed leave the pit, they are just escalating the situation even more.
3. If they don't leave the pit, they are making themselves look like fools who are all bark, but no bite.
4. If they leave the pit, it becomes a legal question as the teams didn't provide the service the fans have paid for. I am not a legal expert, but I definitely see this possibility.
https://fcbayern.com/de/news/2020/03/klarstellung-zu-heutiger-medien-berichterstattung

Statement of Bayern that tells that the media report is wrong!
 

do.ob

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Next round of protest at the Saarbrücken-Düsseldorf match. This time without crass language and leveled at Bayern's involvement with Qatar/hypocrisy:

 

do.ob

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"If we show a "Hurensohn" banner now"

"will you stop playing"

"and we make it into penalties?"