Bundesliga 19/20

Balu

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Totaly agree. There are so many points of criticism at the moment. I really don't know whats the problem. There are many questionsmarks above Favre (especially his tactics and his squad managment) and the BVB right now.
The problem is that your judgement of the quality of the teams before the season was way off:

Best BVB squad since years! We did our homework very well. On the other side there is the worst Bayern squad ever, they are such a joke these times. Loudmouthing Hoeness who spoke about massive transfer activities, in the end there is nothing but questionmarks and a look at Brazzos clueless face.
At the moment its possible that its more likely that there will be a title race between BVB and this football playing advertisment called RB than a race between BVB and Bayern.
Those 3 statements were simply far off reality and even with an inferior manager, this Bayern squad is way ahead of anyone else in the Bundesliga. As long as Kovac doesn't lose the dressing room, Bayern will win again. And as of now, Kovac seems to have the dressing room under control, much better than he had last season. Sadly that means we will continue to have him as our coach.
 

.mica

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The problem is that your judgement of the quality of the teams before the season was way off:


Those 3 statements were simply far off reality and even with an inferior manager, this Bayern squad is way ahead of anyone else in the Bundesliga. As long as Kovac doesn't lose the dressing room, Bayern will win again. And as of now, Kovac seems to have the dressing room under control, much better than he had last season. Sadly that means we will continue to have him as our coach.
No i disagree. I still think we got the best team since years. Our squad is great, with a great depht. The questionmark is rising above Favre, cause its like doob said: There were some problems and he didn't adress them. Now we even got a better squad, lost no one we did't want to sell, and adding some great players with Brandt, Morey, Hummels,... Favre still don't use our squad as a whole and therefor there is also no variability in our playstyle. Adding to the fact that Favre does't change or only slowly change things in-game.

The Bundesliga is still open for me, its too early to predict. Bayern could have a breakdown, BVB could get their shit together, RB with Nagelsmann is still dangerous.
I give you the point that i was underestimating the Bayern squad, but that was before the transfer of Coutinho and Perisic, which helps a lot to fix some lacks. Still, its the worse Bayern squad since a long time. You might be right with your opinion that this Bayern with a better manager would be better than any other team in the league, but i think the other way around is also true: with a inferior coach at BVB (better squad managment, better motivation) BVB would be ahead of this weak Bayern, maybe al least last season in the first place.
 

do.ob

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Those 3 statements were simply far off reality and even with an inferior manager, this Bayern squad is way ahead of anyone else in the Bundesliga. As long as Kovac doesn't lose the dressing room, Bayern will win again. And as of now, Kovac seems to have the dressing room under control, much better than he had last season. Sadly that means we will continue to have him as our coach.
I have little doubt that this Dortmund squad is good enough to challenge Bayern for the title (as in get 80+ points and then see what happens at the end). The club already got 76 points last season, despite fecking up most of 2019, no one of importance has been let go and on the other hand Hummels has been a truly massive signing and while they haven't done outrageous stuff Hazard is a clear upgrade on the wings, as is Brandt as an impact sub. But on the tactical side Favre neither fixed Dortmund's shocking weakness after corners (conceding more than .5 goals per game on average that way iirc - worst in the league) nor did he find a way to improve Dortmund's troubles on controlling/killing a game when they are actually in the lead.

And it's not like this is a case of "well you're good, but not as good as you're thought". The team is 8th after a defeat against Union (two corner goals) and two draws against Frankfurt (two leads dropped) and Bremen (corner goal, lead dropped). There are already reports about Dortmund beginning to warm up their connection with Kohfeldt in the background and I don't really have trouble believing them, Favre could easily be one or two bad results away from losing the player's faith.
 
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PedroMendez

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I think thats more or less spot on. Imo its not the first season that Dortmund should get 80+ points and your in the race for the title with that. I am not sure that its all down to Favre, but he certainly looks very shaky.

Kovac abandoned his 433 shenanigans and went back to 4231. Its not the first time a bayern manager failed to implement his original ideas and went back to the system the team is comfortable with. Ignoring that at least half the midfielder aren't suited to play in this system, bayern is going to be stable and will pick up point consistently. Lewandowski also looks like he is back to his absolute best. He was always top class, but there is no more sulking or trying to run up numbers. He looks like he is embracing his role as senior top star, who wants to lead the team. Its good to see and I hope it lasts.
 

Balu

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I have little doubt that this Dortmund squad is good enough to challenge Bayern for the title (as in get 80+ points and then see what happens at the end).
Dortmund only once got 80+ points, when Klopp's peak side set a new points record in the league with 81 points in 11/12. Only Tuchel got close to 80 when the team played a truely brilliant season and was unlucky to come second behind Pep's Bayern. I don't see neither the individual quality nor the superior coaching to expect a better season than what Tuchel achieved in 15/16.

The first half of last season Dortmund was on an amazing run that simply wasn't sustainable and they got to 42 points. You really think they could play on that level for 34 games? For 80 points, you need something like 25 wins and 5 draws in 34 games. I've no idea where you see the established quality in this Dortmund team to be even better than that. There are many quality young talents in the team, but outside of Hummels and Reus not a single player who you can call an established world class player in the past 5 years. And even Hummels and Reus have question marks over their head. Unless pretty much every talent fullfills their potential consistently, there's no way this squad is capable of 80 points. And even then it's a huge task for them.
 

do.ob

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Dortmund only once got 80+ points, when Klopp's peak side set a new points record in the league with 81 points in 11/12. Only Tuchel got close to 80 when the team played a truely brilliant season and was unlucky to come second behind Pep's Bayern. I don't see neither the individual quality nor the superior coaching to expect a better season than what Tuchel achieved in 15/16.

The first half of last season Dortmund was on an amazing run that simply wasn't sustainable and they got to 42 points. You really think they could play on that level for 34 games? For 80 points, you need something like 25 wins and 5 draws in 34 games. I've no idea where you see the established quality in this Dortmund team to be even better than that. There are many quality young talents in the team, but outside of Hummels and Reus not a single player who you can call an established world class player in the past 5 years. And even Hummels and Reus have question marks over their head. Unless pretty much every talent fullfills their potential consistently, there's no way this squad is capable of 80 points. And even then it's a huge task for them.
In Tuchel's 15/16 season he gave up on the league with 5 games to go, e.g. resting Aubameyang, Reus, Piszczek, Mkhitaryan and Gündogan in the derby against Schalke, dropping 7 points in the run in. Even ignoring that this was a different team and different competitors those 78 points aren't really a fair reflection of that season's limits.

When I look at 2018/19 I think the team overachieved in the first half and underachieved in the second. 76 points was probably a fair points total in the end.

When you look at how Dortmund lost the points it was 9 wins, 1 loss against top 6 opponents, but a proper shit show against the bottom teams: drawing in Nürnberg and Hannover, losing in Augsburg and Düsseldorf as well as at home to Schalke.
I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a learning curve for those kind of matches, as well as an improvement in quality from getting Hummels's build up skills, not having to rely on Diallo as LB or Bruun-Larsen as LW and having someone like Brandt as a playmaking option.

Favre has lots of options for his first team and in depth, he can use different approaches and has options to adjust to different game states (the latter he does actually really well with his subs imho), there is no reason why this squad has to concede an absurd amount from corners or shouldn't be able to cope with a desperate opponent that leave's their pacy attackers plenty of space to exploit.

You don't get 80 points for free of course, but it's a reasonably ambitious goal for this club. There's a reason why Dortmund's other officials usually play down any kind of pressure but openly talked about a title challenge this season. As far as squad cycles go this is the year where things align.
 

hasanejaz88

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Bayer vs Leipzeg has been a match or shit defense vs shit attack.

Countless chances for Leipzeg but they've missed all of them, their finishing has been way off since last week.

Leverkusen playing with an insane high line against Werner and Cunha, that means that the Leipzeg attackers have gone in behind a lot to get chances, but maybe someone them may have been chalked off for offside as well
 

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Freiburg with tremendous energy and pressing against Dortmund though. Apparently Streich's home record vs Dortmund is 0:14 goals now, but with Dortmund's various weaknesses this season they aren't out of it yet obviously.
 

King Andow

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Hoffenheim leading 1-0 vs Bayern at Allianz, Adamyan. Grillitsch is such a good player.
 

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No consistency at this club anymore. Of course we lose to a bottom half club after running riot in the CL.
 

hasanejaz88

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Schalke can go top tonight with a win :lol:

But flipping hell, only 2 points separating the top from 8th (Dortmund). Bayern, Leipzeg, Leverkusen, Freiburg(!) all on 14 points
 

izec

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Streich is brilliant. Not sure how it would work for him at another club, but this guy is a genius at Freiburg with the means and players he has got at his disposal
 

Balu

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Maybe Tottenham would be open to switching managers? I'd like that. I honestly believe Kovac is worse than Klinsmann.

Also :lol::lol::lol: @ Dortmund.
 

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Streich is brilliant. Not sure how it would work for him at another club, but this guy is a genius at Freiburg with the means and players he has got at his disposal
He is Freiburg through and through, just love how he keeps them at this level loosing his best players and signing cheaps every year.
 

.mica

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Ok this match conviced me that there are issues with Favre.
I just don't get it:
To begin with: Akanji is playing again, since weeks he is a waekness, Zagadou has obivously earned every chance to play, he is a great CB, why Akanji is still playing? I just don't get some parts of our play-style. Sometimes when we are in a counterattack or in the last third and can make the game fast, there are tons of options and passing-options to make it extremly dangerous for the opponent. But no we pull the brake, slow it down, and 10 seconds later the ball reaches Bürki. To speak about one little improvement: the set pieces were better, we score from one of them. But what we do after that? Slowing down, play sleeply. Someone might argue that in this phase Freiburg got the game under control, it was fitting in their match-plan, they kept on concentrating, and having in their minds that the 1:1 will happen at some time, and it did.
After that we are like a rabbit in front of a snake, and not like a top-team tearing up the gas to show who is the much better team (or should be...). Then we score the 2:1, an individual class goal and no result of playing good and dangerous. Ok. But we do now? Slowing down again, awaiting the 2:2. More than that: Like a relegation team against Real Madrid we change an attacking player for Schmelzer, an defensive player who hasn't seen the pitch since weeks. Cause why? We are afraid and not playing like whats worthy to call a controlling top-team fighting for the title. And what happens? The 2:2. Bravo.

What is going on ffs?
 

do.ob

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Favre moving closer to the edge. All three draws showing similar patterns which already cost the team plenty during last season's finish. Players can't be satisfied with this either.
 

Balu

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What's the opinion on Kovač among Bayern fans?
I'd personally drive him to England, if he wants to take over somewhere in London or Manchester. No problem.

Just saw we won the xG game against Hoffenheim. Yeah!!! I thought we were shit and deserved to lose though, very weird.
 

Ban

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I'd personally drive him to England, if he wants to take over somewhere in London or Manchester. No problem.

Just saw we won the xG game against Hoffenheim. Yeah!!! I thought we were shit and deserved to lose though, very weird.
Is he that bad? I mean is Bundesliga that bad that he managed to win it?
 

GhastlyHun

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Why? Way Bayern plays, too incosistent, not dominant enough?
All of these. We have no discernible style, no system to rely on. Losing at home to a struggling Hoffenheim (one win all season, before today) is a symptom of all we're lacking currently. We constantly rely on individual brilliance instead of a functioning team.
 

hasanejaz88

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Now Schalke don't win as well. Gladbach win and they'l be top :lol:. Crazy weekend.

Ok this match conviced me that there are issues with Favre.
I just don't get it:
To begin with: Akanji is playing again, since weeks he is a waekness, Zagadou has obivously earned every chance to play, he is a great CB, why Akanji is still playing? I just don't get some parts of our play-style. Sometimes when we are in a counterattack or in the last third and can make the game fast, there are tons of options and passing-options to make it extremly dangerous for the opponent. But no we pull the brake, slow it down, and 10 seconds later the ball reaches Bürki. To speak about one little improvement: the set pieces were better, we score from one of them. But what we do after that? Slowing down, play sleeply. Someone might argue that in this phase Freiburg got the game under control, it was fitting in their match-plan, they kept on concentrating, and having in their minds that the 1:1 will happen at some time, and it did.
After that we are like a rabbit in front of a snake, and not like a top-team tearing up the gas to show who is the much better team (or should be...). Then we score the 2:1, an individual class goal and no result of playing good and dangerous. Ok. But we do now? Slowing down again, awaiting the 2:2. More than that: Like a relegation team against Real Madrid we change an attacking player for Schmelzer, an defensive player who hasn't seen the pitch since weeks. Cause why? We are afraid and not playing like whats worthy to call a controlling top-team fighting for the title. And what happens? The 2:2. Bravo.

What is going on ffs?
100% agree on Akanji, he's been atrocious this season and again was responsible for both goals. Was skimmed easily by Waldschmidt, who is a quality striker and was likely to get a good shot with that much space. Then made two errors for the own goal, first failing to clear an open header and then for some reason not trying to clear the cross but rather just standing still and letting the ball hit him. Lazy and pathetic.

I don't see how you can blame the attack though, their goalscoring stats are fantastic for any team but the defence has been a total letdown. Favre needs to chance some personel there and try to solve their issues at CB.
 

do.ob

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100% agree on Akanji, he's been atrocious this season and again was responsible for both goals. Was skimmed easily by Waldschmidt, who is a quality striker and was likely to get a good shot with that much space. Then made two errors for the own goal, first failing to clear an open header and then for some reason not trying to clear the cross but rather just standing still and letting the ball hit him. Lazy and pathetic.

I don't see how you can blame the attack though, their goalscoring stats are fantastic for any team but the defence has been a total letdown. Favre needs to chance some personel there and try to solve their issues at CB.

Akanji is just lucky that the other two right footed CBs are Balerdi, who has literally zero first team experience and Weigl who probably lacks the athletic qualities to complement Hummels. If Zagadou was right footed he probably would've taken his slot by now.

Fantastic is way too strong a word to describe Dortmund's attack, the play is often too slow and predictable, failing to kill the game when their opposition is getting tired and has to offer space. But I agree that two goals per game should be sufficient against such opposition.
 
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Balu

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Now Schalke don't win as well. Gladbach win and they'l be top :lol:. Crazy weekend.
Gladbach will draw and join the 14 points teams, Wolfsburg will win and be top of the table though.
 

Balu

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Akanji is just lucky that the other two right footed CBs are Balerdi, who has literally zero first team experience and Weigl who probably lacks the athletic qualities to complement Hummels. If Zagadou was right footed he probably would've taken his slot by now.
Play Hummels as right centerback and give Zagadou a shot? Hummels is right footed, has played right centerback often enough to give it a try, even though he's more used to the left centerback role.
 

hasanejaz88

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Akanji is just lucky that the other two right footed CBs are Balerdi, who has literally zero first team experience and Weigl who probably lacks the athletic qualities to complement Hummels. If Zagadou was right footed he probably would've taken his slot by now.

Fantastic is way too strong a word to describe Dortmund's attack, the play is often too slow and predictable, failing to kill the game when their opposition is getting tired and has to offer space. But I agree that two goals per game should be sufficient against such opposition.
Dortmund have the fourth most domestic goals in Europe's top 5 leagues, only behind City, Pool and Bayern, that should show they have no issues with that regards though even I would say they don't look as good as they can (especially Reus).

Playing Hummels on the right is better than Akanji, iirc Hummels played on the right next to Boateng for Germany as well.
 

do.ob

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Play Hummels as right centerback and give Zagadou a shot? Hummels is right footed, has played right centerback often enough to give it a try, even though he's more used to the left centerback role.
Sure, eventually it may very well come to that, but I understand why Favre is reluctant to take Hummels away from his favoured position, given the form he's in.

Dortmund have the fourth most domestic goals in Europe's top 5 leagues, only behind City, Pool and Bayern, that should show they have no issues with that regards though even I would say they don't look as good as they can (especially Reus).

Playing Hummels on the right is better than Akanji, iirc Hummels played on the right next to Boateng for Germany as well.
If we just look at the numbers then Dortmund's output is good, but the attacking play itself isn't. Another factor is that Dortmund had a fairly easy opening schedule.
 

Balu

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Playing Hummels on the right is better than Akanji, iirc Hummels played on the right next to Boateng for Germany as well.
It was always Hummels on the left, if he was partnered with a right footed centerback. Boateng rarely played left centerback and was never comfortable doing it. Worst example of him getting embarassed because he struggled to sort out his feet when played on the left was when Messi dropped him in that black hole in the semifinal in 2015.

Hummels is used to it, because from his early days on, he was the left part of the Hummels/Subotic pairing. Boateng on the other hand was shifted between rightback and right centerback for the first 4-5 years of his career, at Hamburg, at City under Mancini and for the German nationalteam.
 

Inigo

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Hummels is used to it, because from his early days on, he was the left part of the Hummels/Subotic pairing. Boateng on the other hand was shifted between rightback and right centerback for the first 4-5 years of his career, at Hamburg, at City under Mancini and for the German nationalteam.
Boateng also played LB at Hamburg and a few of his early national team matches.
 

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Favre is infuriating. You look at the quality in this squad, and then look at what he's doing with it, so maddening for fans. But what can Dortmund do, they missed out likey on some good younger coaches like Marco Rose by going with Favre, and now are looking all the worse for it. I think the club has to ride it out this season regardless.

He is so passive too, which winds up the fans a lot, all the personality of a wet sponge which doesnt help. I know that isn't he most important thing though!

But as for the league, it has been a very interesting and very good first 7 matchweeks!
 

Balu

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Current news, there is a new book released, telling the story of how FC Bayern transformed itself from a second tier club to a big club trought criminal practices and corruption:
https://www.en24.news/2019/10/gerd-muller-and-the-amigo-system-of-fc-bayern.html

Side info: Today actually 33% of the current FC Bayern board has been previously convicted of criminal actions.

Lovely club.
Have you read it? As far as I know, it's mostly the story of Gerd Müller's rise as a player and then disastrous personal fall to alcohol. It's supposedly told in front of the background of Bayern as a club that rose to success with Müller and then struggled a lot financially after the success in the 70's and was pretty much broke until Hoeneß sold Rummenigge to Inter in the early 80's. It's hardly big news that the club has had strong connections to the Bavarian government starting with Strauß in the 80's until today with Stoiber still head of the supervisory board. Hopefully it's an interesting read.

It surely isn't worse than any other big club in Europe though considering the connections to politics Real and Barca have or the ownership structures in Italy and England with often dubious money from third parties paying for the success.
 

.mica

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Unfortunatly the original is behind a paywall, i don't know if you guys can read it. The headline says: "Wie wurde Bayern München zu einem der größten Fußballklubs der Welt? Mit Gerd Müllers Toren - und kriminellen Praktiken, sagt der Historiker Hans Woller." ("How Bayern München became one of the biggest clubs in the world? With the goals of Gerd Müller and criminal practices, says the historican Hans Woller.")

https://www.spiegel.de/plus/gerd-mueller-und-das-amigo-system-des-fc-bayern-a-00000000-0002-0001-0000-000166262988