GhastlyHun
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"If we show a "Hurensohn" banner now"
"will you stop playing"
"and we make it into penalties?"
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"If we show a "Hurensohn" banner now"
"will you stop playing"
"and we make it into penalties?"
A pretty standard one, for shouting at the ref.pretty shocking yellow card for Raman.
I thought he got it for the "foul", but fair enough, you're probably right he complained heavily and could easily been carded for that.A pretty standard one, for shouting at the ref.
That's how I saw it. The 'foul' was nothing to be fair.I thought he got it for the "foul", but fair enough, you're probably right he complained heavily and could easily been carded for that.
Great!Next round of protest at the Saarbrücken-Düsseldorf match. This time without crass language and leveled at Bayern's involvement with Qatar/hypocrisy:
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Still wondering if Flick can take that Bayern to a level above not by doing some tactics kung-fu and stuff but by just making the players feel comfortable. Strange.Removing Kovac has been more valuable for Bayern than spending 260mil in transfer fees. Stunning performance today against an admitedly crappy Hoffenheim.
So you really want to argue that ultras have done more good than harm? Come on.. Think about that one more time and now don't take for granted all the shit they're regularly doing just because we're used to by now. Pyros, fights, high security matches and so forth.No doubt Ultras can often be idiots, especially when it comes to pyro and the choice of words, but:
Who creates the atmosphere that DFL and DFB are so happy to sell?
Who creates the choreos that clubs love to show off in the CL?
Who spoke up when ticket prices were going up?
Who spoke up when Hoffenheim and Leipzig were making a mockery out of 50+1?
Who spoke up when the DFL fecked match-going fans with monday night kickoffs?
Who speaks up against Clubs doing propaganda for Qatar and Saudi-Arabia?
Who speaks up against racism in football stadiums? While Tönnies gets a slap on the wrist and our honourable reformer DFB president say "racism has been a thing for longer in the Netherlands and England"?
I never said that ultras are saints, I think their obsession with pyro is childish and I wish they would have a less martial view on some of their rivalries - I think clubs and officials should work on changing that part of their culture. But for me there is no doubt that they are a net positive factor in Bundesliga and clubs do as well, otherwise they wouldn't do informal compromises with them on when/how often to use pyro and they would just kick them out instead of giving them all those privileges within the stadiums and on ticket sales.So you really want to argue that ultras have done more good than harm? Come on.. Think about that one more time and now don't take for granted all the shit they're regularly doing just because we're used to by now. Pyros, fights, high security matches and so forth.
And yes, they provide some sort of value with their choreos and at times with their political statements, too. But first of all, they're a selective few. There are much more fans resonsible for the great atmosphere who are no ultras at all. Yes, the ultras are the ones organizing most of it but honestly, only in their very own worlds this justifies all the shit they're doimg on an almost weekly basis.
What does Hopp's private money (directly) have to do with any of this? Does being rich put you above rules like 50+1 whose breach fans are upset about? Is there a certain net worth after which regular people aren't allowed to speak up against someone or something anymore? And who brought up clubs like Stuttgart in this? Aside from yourself?Honestly, I can't understand how any sane person can be on their side in this debate. There's a billionaire who created thousands of jobs, generated billions of tax incomes, spends parts of his fortune to charity on the one side and on the other side a bunch of people whose greatest contribution to society is that they are loud during football games. And somehow the absurd values of these people define the former as the ultimate evil because he keeps fecking Lautern, Stuttgart or Hamburg out of the league.
I mean ultras were among the first people in German football to proclaim "refugees welcome" and they actually speak up against racism, where the DFB is still dragging its feet, so I don't really understand where you are going with that. Furthermore it's not like everything else is completely worthless to discuss just because there are ultimately bigger issues out there and just because people speak up about football related things in the realm of football doesn't mean that they ignore everything else in the rest of their lives.I mean, to each their own and while I can't understand why - in times of global warming, refugee crises, growing right wing populism, racism, brexit, Trump etc - the one topic that bothers you the most is the commercialisation of football, it's their good right to have that opinion. My issue is that they try to force others to be of the same opinion and have the same priorities and when the majority gives two shits about their opinion, they become crybabies and overreact. Ultras feel that they have the right to insult people, vandalize, bully other fans around and generally ruin the fun of millions of otger people just because they feel responsible for the atmosphere in stadiums. Honestly, I have absolutely zero sympathy for people who think it's just to antangonize people because they happen to be fans of another football club.
I would appreciate if you could tell me what your connection to the ultra scenes in various clubs is. You may have spoken about it before on this forum but I am a rather new active member so you as a person are unknown to me. What I want to get at is: If you are in regular contact with ultra groups I can accept this as an informed opinion, if you mostly watch football on TV or in the seated bleachers I believe you mostly get your information from word of mouth or news reports.So you really want to argue that ultras have done more good than harm? Come on.. Think about that one more time and now don't take for granted all the shit they're regularly doing just because we're used to by now. Pyros, fights, high security matches and so forth.
And yes, they provide some sort of value with their choreos and at times with their political statements, too. But first of all, they're a selective few. There are much more fans resonsible for the great atmosphere who are no ultras at all. Yes, the ultras are the ones organizing most of it but honestly, only in their very own worlds this justifies all the shit they're doimg on an almost weekly basis.
That is definitely one of the most truncated ways to describe the situation and I have heard a few. Hopp definitely is not the saintly figure you wish to paint here and him creating jobs or tax income wasn't done for any charitably reason but as a byproduct of him becoming extremely rich. And it doesn't really have anything to do with the issue at hand, neither do his donations to charity. And most of all, none of that makes his opinions or wishes or whatever more important than those of the fans who you once again characterize in a very unflattering way here, like they are some low-life thugs. Again, notwithstanding the way it is communicated (it did in the least prove quite effective in bringing the issues to light), I do agree with the criticism of Hopps involvement and the way the DFB handles the situation.Honestly, I can't understand how any sane person can be on their side in this debate. There's a billionaire who created thousands of jobs, generated billions of tax incomes, spends parts of his fortune to charity on the one side and on the other side a bunch of people whose greatest contribution to society is that they are loud during football games. And somehow the absurd values of these people define the former as the ultimate evil because he keeps fecking Lautern, Stuttgart or Hamburg out of the league.
This - and I can not stress this enough - fecking pisses me off. This is the worst kind of whataboutism I have seen. How dare you accuse people of not caring about these super important issues in our times simply because they are speaking up about a more mundane problem as well. It is even more hypocritical (oh yes) when considering that a lot of ultra groups are actively promoting things like "refugees welcome" or speak out against racism and sexism (maybe not all but it isn't ever all as black and white as you like to paint it, is it?). Devaluing someones opinion on a topic because it may comparatively be less important than another is just lazy and does not exhibit a good conversation style. Sorry I am getting so worked up on this, so far you have seemed like a quite reasonable poster to me but this just really makes me angry.I mean, to each their own and while I can't understand why - in times of global warming, refugee crises, growing right wing populism, racism, brexit, Trump etc - the one topic that bothers you the most is the commercialisation of football, it's their good right to have that opinion.
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Why is he getting abuse?Some updates regarding "#Hurensohn".
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DFB have released an FAQ on their homepage regarding the conflict:
-they admit being too sensible in some cases (namely Berlin and Duisburg), "naturally DFB has to stomach/accept harshly worded criticism"
-a "clear no" towards a (more) common use of collective punishment, which will remain the last resort of their independent DFB court
-going forward: a meeting with "AG Fankulturen", a board of fan representatives "to have a constructive dialogue with fan organizations", to discuss together "what forms - including excessive - of criticism are passable and where red lines lie"
Future actions will speak louder than words of course, but at least it looks that both sides have the intention to de-escalate. Fans still used provocative banners during the last two days (DFB Cup matches), but to my knowledge they refrained from using the "Hasta La Vista"/Crosshairs banner or using the word "Hurensohn", though Frankfurt's fans were kind of teasing that concept, since they displayed a Dietmar Hopp you son of a mother banner, where they took their time revealing what the last word would be.
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I think DW is doing pretty fair write ups of these matters:Why is he getting abuse?
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Has beens, both of themvintage bayern goal. Boateng with a great chip/longball behind the defense and Müller finishing with his first touch.
I think he did alright in Leverkusen. His approach is very centered around pressing, which leads to chaotic games and an inability to dominate and control games via possession. In all three of his Bundesliga seasons he had little over 50% possession on average, despite finishing top 4 in two of them. He didn't come off as particularly likeable to me, but to his credit he gave Leverkusen some much needed cojones, taking 4 points from Bayern during their Guardiola years and 7 points from Klopp and Tuchel at Dortmund, along some other stuff like taking Atletico to penalties. Which was a good improvement from a team mostly laughed at for being mentally weak bottlers/push overs, as with him they never went down without a fight. I think he still has a pretty good reputation in Germany, but because he couldn't really dominate teams he probably won't be on top of Bayern's, Dortmund's or perhaps Leipzig's short list.What is the opinion of the Bundesliga followers (Leverkusen fans) on here on Roger Schmidt. He just signed for PSV.
Thanks for your detailed response. We're in desperate need for someone who'll teach our players how to press so that sounds good. Would love to win top matches again too actually . Won't derail the thread any further. Thanks again!I think he did alright in Leverkusen. His approach is very centered around pressing, which leads to chaotic games and an inability to dominate and control games via possession. In all three of his Bundesliga seasons he had little over 50% possession on average, despite finishing top 4 in two of them. He didn't come off as particularly likeable to me, but to his credit he gave Leverkusen some much needed cojones, taking 4 points from Bayern during their Guardiola years and 7 points from Klopp and Tuchel at Dortmund, along some other stuff like taking Atletico to penalties. Which was a good improvement from a team mostly laughed at for being mentally weak bottlers/push overs, as with him they never went down without a fight. I think he still has a pretty good reputation in Germany, but because he couldn't really dominate teams he probably won't be on top of Bayern's, Dortmund's or perhaps Leipzig's short list.
@do.ob summarized it pretty goodWhat is the opinion of the Bundesliga followers (Leverkusen fans) on here on Roger Schmidt. He just signed for PSV.
Think you're right about being a good fit for the eredivisie judging by the assesement of you and do.ob. In Europe it might be different. If we get there...@do.ob summarized it pretty good
Pros:
Likes to playing attacking football, his teams play great pressing and "gegenpressing" (did this term already make its way out of germany? ), his teams always play with great intensity
Cons:
Due to his style his teams are often exposed in defense, especially when the pressing doesn't work the opponent will get much space. He also seemed a bit stubborn to adjust his style when the defense became a problem. And as already said, he isn't exactly the most likable guy
I think he is a very good fit for your team and the whole league. His approach wouldn't work very well in Italy for example I think.
The guys at StatsBomb like him (and have worked with him in the past apparently) and think this could be a very good appointment. They talk about it briefly in their latest podcast.What is the opinion of the Bundesliga followers (Leverkusen fans) on here on Roger Schmidt. He just signed for PSV.
Leverkusen have had some really interesting coaches down the years. Remember years back Robin Dutt being all the rage for a month or two (Nagalsmann before Nagalsmann became a thing) but he then got sacked and seems just to be a technical director now.@do.ob summarized it pretty good
Pros:
Likes to playing attacking football, his teams play great pressing and "gegenpressing" (did this term already make its way out of germany? ), his teams always play with great intensity
Cons:
Due to his style his teams are often exposed in defense, especially when the pressing doesn't work the opponent will get much space. He also seemed a bit stubborn to adjust his style when the defense became a problem. And as already said, he isn't exactly the most likable guy
I think he is a very good fit for your team and the whole league. His approach wouldn't work very well in Italy for example I think.
From the perspective of a Leverkusen fan:What is the opinion of the Bundesliga followers (Leverkusen fans) on here on Roger Schmidt. He just signed for PSV.
Didn't know the owner was Dietmar Hopp good on himBy the way: The German company CureVac is currently developing a vaccine against Corona and apparently their research is going very well: Accordingbto media reports, Trump offered the company a fortune to ensure that the drug is delivered exclusively to the US. America first and stuff. The CureVacs main owner - a certain Dietmar Hopp - basically told him to feck off. What a Hurensohn.
The protests against Hopp were always aimed at his influence on football. Not against his other dealings.By the way: The German company CureVac is currently developing a vaccine against Corona and apparently their research is going very well: Accordingbto media reports, Trump offered the company a fortune to ensure that the drug is delivered exclusively to the US. America first and stuff. The CureVacs main owner - a certain Dietmar Hopp - basically told him to feck off. What a Hurensohn.
Yeah, some deluded ultras vengefully screaming 'Hopp du Hurensohn' from the top of their lungs is obviously nothing personal, it's just metaphorical for 'Hello Dietmar, you're a decent human being and while you may not have thought about it, your financial backing of a rather unknown club collides with our vision for football in a commercialised world. Please understand that we want to protect the innocent and rural character of the sport in a society that is otherwise completely performance driven as an oasis of comradeship and equality. And although we don't want to explicitly pick you out, your involvement in Hoffenheim has made you a representative of a development that threatens what we love about football.' Silly me that I didn' t understamd this was nothing personal. We politically correct people are so sensitive.The protests against Hopp were always aimed at his influence on football. Not against his other dealings.
But that being said, there is an interview about his biotech investments from little over a year ago:
"We will triple our investment"
There is also a part about curevac, where he talks about how to make the most money out of it.
https://www.handelsblatt.com/untern...ml?ticket=ST-1108721-pDmRGc5sptj5yYsgzQvy-ap3
It's his right to turn vaccines into a business of course and I won't blame him for it, it's how our system works after all. But I would wait for the bottom line, before proclaiming him a saint just because he turned down the first offer.
Well unfortunately that's the culture and language within the stadiums. People don't chant "Timo Werner, please don't dive, it's unfair and ruining sportsmanship" either, they sing "Timo Werner ist ein Hurensohn". And obviously this has turned personal against Hopp, but the scope is still football related, it has never been about Hopp's "civil" life and dealings.Yeah, some deluded ultras vengefully screaming 'Hopp du Hurensohn' from the top of their lungs is obviously nothing personal, it's just metaphorical for 'Hello Dietmar, you're a decent human being and while you may not have thought about it, your financial backing of a rather unknown club collides with our vision for football in a commercialised world. Please understand that we want to protect the innocent and rural character of the sport in a society that is otherwise completely performance driven as an oasis of comradeship and equality. And although we don't want to explicitly pick you out, your involvement in Hoffenheim has made you a representative of a development that threatens what we love about football.' Silly me that I didn' t understamd this was nothing personal. We politically correct people are so sensitive.
And by the way, it doesn't matter why he backed this company. There' s no such thing as selflessness in the world, every human being acts out of egotistical motives. Has he done it purely for others? No. But he has done it and as a consequence of that decision thousands of people may get help.