Bury - EFL to discuss re-entry to L2 | and Bolton - sold

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by jojojo, Aug 3, 2019.

  1. Aug 3, 2019
    #1

    jojojo JoJoJoJoJoJo Staff

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    Bury's opening match against MK Dons (due to be played today) was cancelled earlier in the week. Now their next game, against Accrington Stanley, has been cancelled as well.

    The EFL say that they haven't been able to prove their financial stability or source of funds. Though actually the League never did approve the change of ownership that took place earlier in the year. They've already been docked 12 points this season over the problems.

    At any rate, after years of being on the brink of bankruptcy, it looks like the club may be in the worst kind of trouble this time. For whatever reason, the owner didn't follow the bankruptcy option, which currently looks more suspicious than if he had.

    Bolton are in marginally better shape having been through bankruptcy proceedings, but the new owners still haven't officially taken over, so it sounds like the FL will have them on their watch list as well.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49213628
  2. Aug 3, 2019
    #2

    jojojo JoJoJoJoJoJo Staff

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    Some background on the clubs' recent owners.
    https://www.itv.com/news/granada/20...-bury-a-special-report-into-football-finance/

    The group that are trying to take Bolton over seem to be putting enough working finance in to keep it on tickover, but the paperwork still hasn't been signed. Hopefully just a temporary holdup, though the fear is no one knows what they're finding as they get deeper into the murky accounts.

    Some stuff on what it's been like for the staff, including the players:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49098800
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2019
  3. Aug 3, 2019
    #3

    Sandikan aka sex on the beach

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    I'm watching Wycombe v bolton at the mo. Bolton apparently only have three senior outfield players.

    While they look no threat up front they're holding us 0-0 at half time.
  4. Aug 3, 2019
    #4

    jojojo JoJoJoJoJoJo Staff

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    The only senior players they've got registered are 2 keepers and 5 outfield players. The playing staff haven't been paid for months.

    Bury are in the same boat, but worse. They played for months last season without getting paid but still managed to get promoted. Most of the starters have now left, and a big chunk of the other staff were made redundant. So they're in FL1 on -12 points, without the players who got them there and without the guarantee that they can pay the current players/staff or cover the costs of using temp staff to fill in.
  5. Aug 3, 2019
    #5

    lysglimt Full Member

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    Ridiculous when the P.L receive that kind of money - they really need do distribute the money better
  6. Aug 3, 2019
    #6

    Organic New Member

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    My local team. Been to Gigg Lane a number of times and played for the youth team.
    Can’t see them surviving this.
  7. Aug 3, 2019
    #7

    Sandikan aka sex on the beach

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    You'd get dodgy owners over stretching or creaming off the money however much filters down.
  8. Aug 4, 2019
    #8

    KanieKaned Full Member

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    Bolton managed to do a deal with the creditors from what I heard. Bury sadly look fecked.
  9. Aug 4, 2019
    #9

    jojojo JoJoJoJoJoJo Staff

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    It's about governance as well though. Bolton's last owner was paying himself a consultancy fee but not paying the ground staff wages. His own business history was littered with bankruptcies.

    At Bury, one of the previous owner's companies used the stadium and training ground as collateral on a loan to fund his other failing businesses.

    The current Bury owner doesn't have the money to cover the debt or the running costs. He went down the "voluntary agreement" route with creditors (where the club only pays part of its debts) but hasn't shown where the money will come from. It's not clear if he stands to gain anything (from a property/asset sale) but it looks like he can't afford to operate it as a football club - despite repeatedly saying that he could when he bought it in December.
  10. Aug 4, 2019
    #10

    jojojo JoJoJoJoJoJo Staff

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    Bolton have a potential new owner and some short-term funding. The formal transfer of ownership (and debt) hasn't happened yet and it looks like the buyers have asked the PFA for a loan to pay the players/coaches their unpaid wages (about £2.5m).

    Their business plan relies on buying the club and the related hotel, but the sales are being handled separately. It looks like they aren't the highest bidder for the hotel - and it's not clear what happens if it stays that way. Lots of well meaning statements from the council etc saying "we'd like" the assets to be sold together - but no obvious way of forcing that to happen.

    Net effect. Bolton may be transferred to its new owners soon, but it's not yet safe.

    Bury desperately need a rescue mission. Like United buying it for the women's team to ground share perhaps! Mind you, I'm still surprised that the "class of 92" including its Bury natives bought Salford rather than Bury. I guess Salford was more fun when they started - plus the Neville family probably know the finances of Bury FC better than anyone - they worked for them.
  11. Aug 4, 2019
    #11

    Josep Dowling Full Member

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    Thanks for posting the video. The fit and proper test is a complete waste of time. The FA as a body is just a waste of time as well. How can you allow a takeover without seeing proof of finance. They basically said yes you can takeover send the paperwork later, which isn’t doing the test.

    The same thing happened with Plymouth and Peter Ridsdale. Banned from being a company director. Had already put Leeds and Cardiff in a terrible financial situation yet was allowed at a third club. Don’t know how these people sleep at night.
  12. Aug 12, 2019
    #12

    jojojo JoJoJoJoJoJo Staff

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    Bury's third match has been postponed as well and this evening the EFL gave the club a new deadline (9am Tuesday) for the missing paperwork.

    Meanwhile "Bury FC staff" say they know someone has put in an offer to buy the cub and have issued a statement asking Steve Dale to sell it:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49324224
  13. Aug 12, 2019
    #13

    jojojo JoJoJoJoJoJo Staff

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    The tweet from the club's official account


    and the statement from the staff:
    https://www.buryfc.co.uk/news/2019/august/statement-from-bury-fc-staff/
  14. Aug 12, 2019
    #14

    jojojo JoJoJoJoJoJo Staff

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    Following this apparent statement from Dale following the staff mutiny:
    [​IMG]

    And now a more conciliatory sounding reply from Dale:
  15. Aug 12, 2019
    #15

    marukomu The Gatekeeper

    I hope they sort it out. My nephew is a youth player there.
  16. Aug 14, 2019
    #16

    jojojo JoJoJoJoJoJo Staff

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    As things stand, four Bury matches have now been postponed and the FL says that on the 23rd they'll vote to expel them from the League unless they can prove that finance is in place.

    I hadn't quite understood Steve Dale (who bought the club for £1 last December) was up to. I assumed it was a slow asset strip of the club and ultimately the sale of the stadium to developers. Turns out he had something quicker in mind.

    This https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...ves-Bury-brink.html?__twitter_impression=true article explains the game.

    Whether he'll succeed in his ambition, I guess depends on whoever is looking at buying and whether he got all the calculations and paperwork right.
  17. Aug 14, 2019
    #17

    B20 HEY EVERYONE I IGNORE SOMEONE LOOK AT ME

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    I guess League 1 has no "fit and proper" vetting for new owners?
  18. Aug 14, 2019
    #18

    jojojo JoJoJoJoJoJo Staff

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    Meanwhile the Bolton Wanderers sale still hasn't been concluded. The potential new owners Football Ventures, who thought they were buying the club from the bankruptcy receivers are waiting for Bassini's court action (against the previous owner) to conclude. They also want to buy the club hotel at the same time as the club, but that deal's not going well either.

    This fragmentation of club assets into multiple companies, is making the business of buying a club a fraught process. One of the bits that the court case is about owns the club's Football League registration and apparently not much more.

    https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/spo...nderson-wanderers-wait-crucial-court-verdict/
    Gives a bit of the background.
  19. Aug 14, 2019
    #19

    AlwaysRed66 Full Member

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    So sorry for fans of these clubs. Politicians & councils need to bring in laws ensuring assets like grounds & training facilities of Football clubs are not able to be sold of to developers or asset stripped, & these slimy conmen are investigated & hopefully jailed. Don't hold your breath though, as the current slimeball has already had 11 companies dissolved, with no doubt creditors losing money. The current insolvency laws have been a mess for years, & allows undesirables to get away with their crooked practices.
  20. Aug 14, 2019
    #20

    jojojo JoJoJoJoJoJo Staff

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    It does. So far the owner hasn't passed it. That was what set in motion the football league's action current against the club.
  21. Aug 14, 2019
    #21

    B20 HEY EVERYONE I IGNORE SOMEONE LOOK AT ME

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    I am confused. How was he was to buy the club if there is vetting and the owner hasn't passed it?
  22. Aug 14, 2019
    #22

    jojojo JoJoJoJoJoJo Staff

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    Keep in mind that a club these days is basically a collection of limited companies. Anyone can buy a limited company.

    The only thing that the FL can do is then threaten retrospectively to withdraw the League registration from whichever company holds it. Actually doing that mid-season screws up the schedule, which is what's happening to Bury now.

    They're acting on the basis that there are football creditors who haven't been paid - including the players. Dale insists they will be paid, the FL have basically asked him to prove it, by showing them the money.
  23. Aug 14, 2019
    #23

    Rood nostradamus like gloater Scout

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    big shame to see these 2 historic clubs struggling so much - I remember we used to play reserve matches at Bury's Gigg Lane and FCUM played there for a while as well

    Heard Simon Jordon (ex Palace owner) questioning Steve Dale on Talksport last week - he was asking him really probing questions to try and understand how Bury could be in such a mess. Dale blamed the EFL and previous owner (who obviously is partly responsible) but it was clear that he wasnt giving the whole story, bizarre situation when he is supposedly the owner of the club but the club are putting out statements without his knowledge.
  24. Aug 14, 2019
    #24

    jojojo JoJoJoJoJoJo Staff

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    Another day older, and deeper in debt...

    As is normal in court cases, the case was not resolved on Wednesday, it will resume in September when further evidence can be presented.

    The sale (bankruptcy receivers to Football Ventures) can go ahead, says the Judge.

    However, also according to the judge, that doesn't preclude Bassini winning his case against the previous owner. Nor, according to Bassini's lawyers, does it stop Bassini bringing a new case against the receiver or the new club owners later if he wins.

    So, hmmm, yeah well. Anyone's guess really - may depend on who hires the more expensive lawyers. For Bolton, it now comes down to whether Football Ventures (and their financiers) are willing to gamble not just on a football club, but also a court case. Especially as it's still not clear that the club will be sold intact (that is, complete with assets like the hotel).
  25. Aug 16, 2019
    #25

    DavidDeSchmikes Full Member

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  26. Aug 16, 2019
    #26

    Chipper Full Member

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    Well that was explosive! You wouldn't get that sort of thing with major clubs, I like it.

    Not really understanding Dale's position. Seems to be "You've had 50% of your pay from the PFA, I've paid you nothing so that's ok and it absolves me of any responsibility to pay you". I am half cut now, but that sounds :houllier: to me, and then the player is even disputing that.
  27. Aug 16, 2019
    #27

    VJ1762 Full Member

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    Man, how long before we are in a similar situation to Bury?
  28. Aug 16, 2019
    #28

    Kag Full Member

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    Hopefully this dickhead kicks the can before he can put any more people into poverty and despair. He’s a professional asset stripper.
  29. Aug 17, 2019
    #29

    Chipper Full Member

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    Are there any active Bury forums? Interested to know what the fans think.

    Found gigglane.com but I don't think I can view that without signing up and I can't be arsed on the off-chance people actually do post there.
  30. Aug 17, 2019
    #30

    SambaBoy Full Member

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    Yeah he tries to make out that the players getting 50% of their wages is ok! If it's one month then yes maybe, but these players have been getting half pay or no pay for over 6 months whilst still performing on the pitch. These players aren't on PL or even Championship wages, most of them will be on anywhere between £400-£1000 a week. Taking a 50% pay cut for months when they have mortgages and bills to pay would be a challenge for nearly all of them but Dale shows no remorse.
  31. Aug 17, 2019
    #31

    Acole9 Outstanding

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    I really hope Bury manage to get themselves sorted, it would be a real shame to see them fold.
  32. Aug 17, 2019
    #32

    jojojo JoJoJoJoJoJo Staff

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    Apparently Jill Neville walked out after she heard that interview. It sounds like being asked to write a letter backing up Steve Dale over wages was the last straw. She's been with the club for more than 30 years. One of the stands is named after her husband - who ran the club for years.

    We're reaching the point where expulsion from the FL and a subsequent bankruptcy might be not just inevitable, but the only route left for the club. A long road that one, but it's been done before by other teams. We can only hope that the council can legally get away with protecting the stadium site from demolition and resale. If the club fails then Dale should get no money out of it.
  33. Aug 17, 2019
    #33

    Acole9 Outstanding

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    I know clubs don't really like handouts from other clubs but I haven't heard of any clubs helping them out. Probably reluctant to knowing the owner sounds like a bit of a prat.
  34. Aug 17, 2019
    #34

    Sandikan aka sex on the beach

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    Agree totally with you, but there's whispers Bury have an insane pay scale, that is one of the big reasons for the mess they're in.

    One article said they had a player on 10k a week, and I'm not sure if it was the same player, but Sheff Utd couldn't match a player they were after from Bury, so had to give an extra year deal instead.
  35. Aug 17, 2019
    #35

    Sandikan aka sex on the beach

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    I suppose there could be a fund from the billions swilling around in the game, to help out teams that get in this position.

    But then again, if owners knew there was a backup fund, they'd perhaps be even more reckless.
  36. Aug 19, 2019
    #36

    jojojo JoJoJoJoJoJo Staff

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    On a technical level, no other club/club owner can actually give them money or a loan to tide them over. It would violate the ownership/independence rules.

    That said, when City left their Carrington training ground they let Bury use it rent-free - however they've been thrown out of there now as they weren't even maintaining the pitches.

    In terms of increasing the size of the solidarity fund that the PL gives to the EFL - it's not obvious that it would help in situations like Bury's. The previous owners overspent, trying to get Bury promoted, loaning (not giving) the club money to do it. The new owner bought the debt and set up a CVA - a route that he's followed with multiple (non-football) businesses in the past.

    If someone buys it now or even gifts them the money in some way - it goes to pay off a professional asset stripper. Only after that's done, can they start to actually run it as a football club again. In raw financial terms, it can't be done.

    Of course the amounts of money compared to the PL are so low, that there's hope - and it would be nice if someone could just ignore who they're (over) paying and buy it anyway. Maybe even as a prelude to selling at least some of it back to the fans. It doesn't seem likely though.
  37. Aug 19, 2019
    #37

    jojojo JoJoJoJoJoJo Staff

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  38. Aug 19, 2019
    #38

    golden_blunder Site admin. Manchester United fan Staff

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    How much would it cost to run a small club like Bury?
  39. Aug 19, 2019
    #39

    jojojo JoJoJoJoJoJo Staff

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    £5m/year or thereabouts would be just about sustainable in terms of income and a lot of L2 and L1 are running on that kind of budget.

    The previous owners were overspending by around £2m/year, borrowing on club assets to cover it and when their main (property development) business failed, it looks like things got worse. Steve Dale then bought Bury for £1 - and it looks like he then more or less stopped paying wages/bill within a few weeks of the takeover. It's not clear how much money Dale has put into the club, but there's no sign of it being anything substantial

    From the CVA it looks like a big chunk of the debt is owned by Dale and Dale's family - and the only way he'll sell is if the buyer pays off that debt as well as the rest of the bills. Some Bury fans think that Dale did a deal with the previous owner, to use his experience in getting money out of near bankrupt businesses in return for the £1 sale price - if he gets a buyer who'll pay what he's asking.
  40. Aug 19, 2019
    #40

    golden_blunder Site admin. Manchester United fan Staff

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    Great info @jojojo how much do you think it would cost to buy?