Can we change our reputation in the market?

Beachryan

More helpful with spreadsheets than Phurry
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May 13, 2010
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While one can correctly make the argument that 'it's not your money so don't worry', there is inarguably an opportunity cost to every bit of terrible business this illustrious club puts us through each year. Whether somehow getting fleeced for Fellaini, standing firm but still getting mugged on Maguire or the fact that Phil Jones will be contracted here long after most of us our dead - the one constant under Big Ed's leadership is ineptitude on the contracts and signings side.

But - whether or not it was all his fault doesn't matter - the big man is going. This should be seized as a HUGE opportunity for the club to fix this debacle. Just blame him. Do secret media briefings that United have hired some of the world's best data scientists from an underground lab in the valley that are using machine-learning to optimise algorithms to accurately price players future values to the dollar. Leak that Joel Glazer's great passion in life is not overpaying on football wages and that he has a calendar in his basement with end dates of Jones, Matic and now Bailly and he cries himself to sleep with regret. And now he's the only person that can sign any extension. Hell, have Ole do a press conference only dedicated to how awful the business has been and that we're not going to be mugs anymore.

Then - and this is the hard bit - stick to it. Maybe take some pain in this year. Maybe even next year. But it's the only way to fix our reputation in the longer term.

Sancho's price doesn't come down reflecting another year and insane changes to the market? F*ck em, make a reasonable offer then walk away.
A 31 year old wants a 2-year contract extension? F*ck em, United's policy is clear, 1 season at a time.
A club wants Jessie 'best player outside the top 4' Lingard for a reasonable fee? F*ck em, let's see the scramble for his services on deadline day.
An agent calls you up and says hey, I've got this great player and he's desperate to play for you and we can cut a deal - but he isn't on your pre-identified lists anywhere? F*ck em but do take the free lunch he offers.
One of our players tried to hold us to ransom over a contract? F*ck em, to the reserves with you.

Basically, we need to start behaving like the proper mega-club that we are. One of the reasons that we were so succcesful is because everyone in the footballing world knew that Fergie was serious, somewhat irrational and would never back down. We need to get that edge back.
 
Good post. I doubt we will turn into Bayern in the market over night. The other big English clubs overpay just like us. They sell players much better than us though.
I think we need to stop letting players go for cheap!
 
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Not with the Glazers and Ed Deadwood II, we won't. Our new DoF or whatever name they've given him is just facade and spin to make sure the fans are quelled for the time being.
 
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I think some of this has already happened under Ole. We haven't panicked to purchase expensive dud players. But to progress further, we need to be successful in footballing terms. Currently everyone knows our imperative to become a top team again and United will pay through the roof to try and achive that. And if we become a trophy winning club, we will again become a favourite club for many top players which will mean needing to pay less wages.
 
Perhaps the fans can start by not acting like spoiled, rich kids and stop demanding a 100M mega signing every to "challenge" and then calling for the board's head when it doesn't materialize. The obsession with mega signings is the issue.
 
Good post. I was actually thinking of making something similar.

Are we supposedly becoming more efficient now because we didn’t bow to Dortmund last year but majorly lacked creatively last season? Where does one begin and one end? Is saving money and dragging out deals a good way to do business in a constantly evolving market place thats already awash with money anyway.
 
Hire competent people, grant them full authority, specify the budget and let them handle it. We could get back our respect in one window.
 
Bastian said:
Hire competent people, grant them full authority, specify the budget and let them handle it. We could get back our respect in one window.
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Yeah. This. Hopefully that’s what Murtough and fletcher are for us. If they are just another Ed and Matt in disguise conferencing with Joel every 500k then nothing will change. They need a budget and some autonomy to build their own networks in the game
 
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Beachryan said:
While one can correctly make the argument that 'it's not your money so don't worry', there is inarguably an opportunity cost to every bit of terrible business this illustrious club puts us through each year. Whether somehow getting fleeced for Fellaini, standing firm but still getting mugged on Maguire or the fact that Phil Jones will be contracted here long after most of us our dead - the one constant under Big Ed's leadership is ineptitude on the contracts and signings side.

But - whether or not it was all his fault doesn't matter - the big man is going. This should be seized as a HUGE opportunity for the club to fix this debacle. Just blame him. Do secret media briefings that United have hired some of the world's best data scientists from an underground lab in the valley that are using machine-learning to optimise algorithms to accurately price players future values to the dollar. Leak that Joel Glazer's great passion in life is not overpaying on football wages and that he has a calendar in his basement with end dates of Jones, Matic and now Bailly and he cries himself to sleep with regret. And now he's the only person that can sign any extension. Hell, have Ole do a press conference only dedicated to how awful the business has been and that we're not going to be mugs anymore.

Then - and this is the hard bit - stick to it. Maybe take some pain in this year. Maybe even next year. But it's the only way to fix our reputation in the longer term.

Sancho's price doesn't come down reflecting another year and insane changes to the market? F*ck em, make a reasonable offer then walk away.
A 31 year old wants a 2-year contract extension? F*ck em, United's policy is clear, 1 season at a time.
A club wants Jessie 'best player outside the top 4' Lingard for a reasonable fee? F*ck em, let's see the scramble for his services on deadline day.
An agent calls you up and says hey, I've got this great player and he's desperate to play for you and we can cut a deal - but he isn't on your pre-identified lists anywhere? F*ck em but do take the free lunch he offers.
One of our players tried to hold us to ransom over a contract? F*ck em, to the reserves with you.

Basically, we need to start behaving like the proper mega-club that we are. One of the reasons that we were so succcesful is because everyone in the footballing world knew that Fergie was serious, somewhat irrational and would never back down. We need to get that edge back.
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From an outside perspective, I believe you as a club should be less focused on signings. The read "we're two or three signings away from a title challenge" is used frequently in here and I don't think it applies to modern football anymore. There are other success factors than player quality. You have a really good team already but still come across a little desperate sometimes which is why clubs think you'll overpay I believe.
 
CG1010 said:
I think some of this has already happened under Ole. We haven't panicked to purchase expensive dud players. But to progress further, we need to be successful in footballing terms. Currently everyone knows our imperative to become a top team again and United will pay through the roof to try and achive that. And if we become a trophy winning club, we will again become a favourite club for many top players which will mean needing to pay less wages.
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Yep. Most of our transfers sagas are media hype and us wanting to be muppets.
People kept saying for us to pay up for Sancho last year cause the price was known.
We don't know what actually happened, but I doubt they tried emailing Dortmund every day about prices. United had their valuation, Dortmund stuck to theirs. We didn't drop our interest because if Dortmund changed their mind we would still buy him. We didn't buckle to go higher, and now a year later his asking price is suddenly around what we were (reportedly) willing to pay for him last year.
Yes we could have gained a lot by buying Sancho anyway a year ago, maybe even have won the league by turning all those tight draws into wins. But we couldn't anticipate that last summer, and by not budging we showed other clubs that we won't cave to price demands as much as we maybe did in the past. Which should help us in this summer and future summers transfer sagas, as long as we keep a similar strategy.
 
MackRobinson said:
Perhaps the fans can start by not acting like spoiled, rich kids and stop demanding a 100M mega signing every to "challenge" and then calling for the board's head when it doesn't materialize. The obsession with mega signings is the issue.
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Or at the same time leveling every player who's not in the current managers plan as deadwood and barely good enough for the championship.

Some of our fanbase would've had the club sell Lukaku for 30m
 
MackRobinson said:
Perhaps the fans can start by not acting like spoiled, rich kids and stop demanding a 100M mega signing every to "challenge" and then calling for the board's head when it doesn't materialize. The obsession with mega signings is the issue.
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Tell that to Pep.

You can't turn a turd into gold, but you can make a polish a diamond.

While yes buying new players isn't always the answer, a lack of quality is definitely counter productive.
 
They've tried and it's evident in their reluctance to pay over the last few windows: "won't pay FC". They need to keep it up and utilise the huge scouting network they've setup, work in the shadows and buy hidden gems.
 
MackRobinson said:
Perhaps the fans can start by not acting like spoiled, rich kids and stop demanding a 100M mega signing every to "challenge" and then calling for the board's head when it doesn't materialize. The obsession with mega signings is the issue.
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Way to tar everyone with the same brush.

I think most on here, being aware of the fact we need to strengthen in a number of positions, would rather us spend £150 million on 3/4 players than spunk most of it on Sancho and then one other.
 
Almost every club have hit and miss records with transfers. Our lack of ability to recognise a bad transfer and act quickly to move the player on and bring in a replacement is what we're really bad at.

Look at Chelsea and the list of signings they've made in the last decade or so that either were questionable, or haven't worked out: Bakayoko, Drinkwater, Batshuayi, Luiz, Morata, Zappacosta, Pedro, Salah, KDB, Remy, Alonso, Felipe Luis, Ju Cuadrado, Falcao, Kennedy... the list goes on and on. It's actually insane to look at their ins and outs.

Point being, it's not just how naive we are in the market, we're so slow and indecisive on top of that, it's unreal. For a club our size, it's hard to imagine the level of ineptitude. It's going to take a long time to repair our reputation in the market.
 
I'm kind of torn on this because I'm certain there's a lot more going on behind the scenes than we think. A big part I think many on this forum don't take into account is that players might just not be that bothered about United right now - look at the Sancho saga last season, he never actually pushed for anything himself. We get linked to all big players because we're rich and generate loads of clicks but how much is concrete interest where a player is desperate to join us? Just because a manager wants a player, doesn't mean they actually want to join us. Fans think we're rubbish at negotiating and overpaying but, the sad truth is, that is probably our best/only chance to be competitive.

We got Pogba because the Spanish clubs couldn't match the fee, City refused Maguire's fee, City also refused Sanchez salary demands, DDG's contract is ridiculous, Lingard is on massive wages, Martial, Rashford, Pogba, Shaw (remember Chelsea refused to match our wages so pulled out), Cavani wanted Athletico but they refused the agent fee, I feel we get so caught up in not 'losing' a transfer saga that we lose sight of value and just assume we're bad at negotiating which doesn't really make sense when most big clubs use intermediaries anyway.
 
BFernandes said:
Way to tar everyone with the same brush.

I think most on here, being aware of the fact we need to strengthen in a number of positions, would rather us spend £150 million on 3/4 players than spunk most of it on Sancho and then one other.
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And those players (averaging £40-50M) would be considered not good enough. Even the notion of continually spending £150M is ridiculous.
 
Adam-Utd said:
Tell that to Pep.

You can't turn a turd into gold, but you can make a polish a diamond.

While yes buying new players isn't always the answer, a lack of quality is definitely counter productive.
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Which mega signings has Pep bought in his last few years? Of course, they spend money, but it's obvious they aren't preoccupied with signing the biggest name available players every year (Sancho, Haaland, etc)
 
We’ve made strides to do so but we are rarely negotiating from a position of strength. When your someway behind your rival and need to improve other clubs and agents are going to charge a premium for your desperation especially if other are improving and you risk being cut further adrift. It’s easier to walk away from deals when you already have a squad capable of challenging.
 
I think it already has.

United are no longer considered in the upper echelons of big spenders. Top tier is PSG, City and Chelsea. Then under them, you have Bayern, Barca and Real (despite their financial troubles). Then you've got the rest including United, Liverpool and Juve.

Rightly or wrongly, the world thinks we're a poorly run basket case.
 
Dante said:
I think it already has.

United are no longer considered in the upper echelons of big spenders. Top tier is PSG, City and Chelsea. Then under them, you have Bayern, Barca and Real (despite their financial troubles). Then you've got the rest including United, Liverpool and Juve.

Rightly or wrongly, the world thinks we're a poorly run basket case.
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According to you. And yet, out of the teams you listed it is only PSG and Barcelona who have spent more than us on a single player (Athletico also have but I don't see them up there). Also, Bayern and Juventus? Are you serious?

If the fact that every footballer is linked to us by the media is not enough to tell you how much of a cash cow do everyone see us then maybe Dortmund publicly stating that they will stick to their valuations should tell you something about them seeing us as big spenders...

Or maybe you are mistaking big spenders with preferred destination. If so, I would agree to an extent but would still re-order the clubs slightly.
 
Dante said:
I think it already has.

United are no longer considered in the upper echelons of big spenders. Top tier is PSG, City and Chelsea. Then under them, you have Bayern, Barca and Real (despite their financial troubles). Then you've got the rest including United, Liverpool and Juve.

Rightly or wrongly, the world thinks we're a poorly run basket case.
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I hear this all the time. Whether it's true or not -- that we're a poorly run basket case -- is a different question, but this is a widely held perception.
 
Rightnr said:
No twith the Glazers and Ed Deadwood II, we won't. Our new DoF or whatever name they've given him is just facade and spin to make sure the fans are quelled for the time being.
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Our DOF has been involved into the mess since the beginning of it. So how on earth is he going to change anything? It comes to no surprise that the policy of giving players of little to no use to us new contract extensions hasn't changed. Bailly was given a new contract extension and we're set to do the same with Mata and Grant.
 
Yes.

A- Hire a top DOF and give him some real power. He'll bring his reputation with him alongside with his horde of contacts and tons of experience.
B- Replace Woodward with someone whose experienced in football and is known for being a tough negotiator.

United will change from this sluggish club who take ages to sign players and give contract extensions to rubbish to a club whose constantly sniffing new opportunities
 
eire-red said:
Almost every club have hit and miss records with transfers. Our lack of ability to recognise a bad transfer and act quickly to move the player on and bring in a replacement is what we're really bad at.

Look at Chelsea and the list of signings they've made in the last decade or so that either were questionable, or haven't worked out: Bakayoko, Drinkwater, Batshuayi, Luiz, Morata, Zappacosta, Pedro, Salah, KDB, Remy, Alonso, Felipe Luis, Ju Cuadrado, Falcao, Kennedy... the list goes on and on. It's actually insane to look at their ins and outs.

Point being, it's not just how naive we are in the market, we're so slow and indecisive on top of that, it's unreal. For a club our size, it's hard to imagine the level of ineptitude. It's going to take a long time to repair our reputation in the market.
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While Chelsea might look like a mess with their massive loan lists and in and outs, they get good prices for their deadwood or loanees , similar to Liverpool and Arsenal. Whereas our players tend to do well in other EPL teams but often go for peanuts or very small transfer fees due to their bloated wages. I think the contracts team have to take a bloody good look a themselves and stop being idiots.
 
It's not about been big spenders. It should be about obtaining the best players either through the youth structure or the transfer market. We have struggled to get the best players for the last 15 years in the transfer through not having the funds in the early stage of the glazer reign and under Woodward due to incompetence. We have improved through the youth structure as we have some brilliant prospects coming through but I'd worry about the transfer market, we are so behind the elite clubs in the way they conduct their business.
 
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Paul_Scholes18 said:
Good post. I doubt we will turn into Bayern in the market over night. The other big English clubs overpay just like us. They sell players much better than us though.
I think we need to stop letting players go for cheap!
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We hang on to players like no one else as well so we sure ain’t letting them go cheap.
 
Glazers have zero interest in speaking never mind interviewing or hiring the likes of Campos, Paratici, Van Der Saar, Overmars etc.

In house appointment who won't rock the boat and will toe the line. No DoF with any good reputation would look to ruin their careers by coming to Utd and having no say over the structure of the first team and just being a fall guy.
 
Beachryan said:
While one can correctly make the argument that 'it's not your money so don't worry', there is inarguably an opportunity cost to every bit of terrible business this illustrious club puts us through each year. Whether somehow getting fleeced for Fellaini, standing firm but still getting mugged on Maguire or the fact that Phil Jones will be contracted here long after most of us our dead - the one constant under Big Ed's leadership is ineptitude on the contracts and signings side.

But - whether or not it was all his fault doesn't matter - the big man is going. This should be seized as a HUGE opportunity for the club to fix this debacle. Just blame him. Do secret media briefings that United have hired some of the world's best data scientists from an underground lab in the valley that are using machine-learning to optimise algorithms to accurately price players future values to the dollar. Leak that Joel Glazer's great passion in life is not overpaying on football wages and that he has a calendar in his basement with end dates of Jones, Matic and now Bailly and he cries himself to sleep with regret. And now he's the only person that can sign any extension. Hell, have Ole do a press conference only dedicated to how awful the business has been and that we're not going to be mugs anymore.

Then - and this is the hard bit - stick to it. Maybe take some pain in this year. Maybe even next year. But it's the only way to fix our reputation in the longer term.

Sancho's price doesn't come down reflecting another year and insane changes to the market? F*ck em, make a reasonable offer then walk away.
A 31 year old wants a 2-year contract extension? F*ck em, United's policy is clear, 1 season at a time.
A club wants Jessie 'best player outside the top 4' Lingard for a reasonable fee? F*ck em, let's see the scramble for his services on deadline day.
An agent calls you up and says hey, I've got this great player and he's desperate to play for you and we can cut a deal - but he isn't on your pre-identified lists anywhere? F*ck em but do take the free lunch he offers.
One of our players tried to hold us to ransom over a contract? F*ck em, to the reserves with you.

Basically, we need to start behaving like the proper mega-club that we are. One of the reasons that we were so succcesful is because everyone in the footballing world knew that Fergie was serious, somewhat irrational and would never back down. We need to get that edge back.
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I said as much last summer: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/we-need-to-make-a-big-statement-in-the-transfer-market.456796/
 
demongod said:
While Chelsea might look like a mess with their massive loan lists and in and outs, they get good prices for their deadwood or loanees , similar to Liverpool and Arsenal. Whereas our players tend to do well in other EPL teams but often go for peanuts or very small transfer fees due to their bloated wages. I think the contracts team have to take a bloody good look a themselves and stop being idiots.
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Fully agreed.

We give moronic wages to mediocre players as we always seem to be in crisis mode when signing them.

Suspect it's a bit of the Investment Banker side of Woodward and Co. as well. "We're the best, we pay the best" and all that. It had come full circle to bite them hard.
 
eire-red said:
Almost every club have hit and miss records with transfers. Our lack of ability to recognise a bad transfer and act quickly to move the player on and bring in a replacement is what we're really bad at.

Look at Chelsea and the list of signings they've made in the last decade or so that either were questionable, or haven't worked out: Bakayoko, Drinkwater, Batshuayi, Luiz, Morata, Zappacosta, Pedro, Salah, KDB, Remy, Alonso, Felipe Luis, Ju Cuadrado, Falcao, Kennedy... the list goes on and on. It's actually insane to look at their ins and outs.

Point being, it's not just how naive we are in the market, we're so slow and indecisive on top of that, it's unreal. For a club our size, it's hard to imagine the level of ineptitude. It's going to take a long time to repair our reputation in the market.
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And we are intent on squeezing every last drop of value out of players we’ve spent any decent money. Jones Mata and Matic still being here is the main case in point. City let go of legends like aguero and silva and Fernandinho without fuss. We are really really poor at turning over the squad and bringing in new talent. Fecking owners man.
 
We have done some pretty good things in the transfer market over the last 2 years. I would like to thing that our management have finally started to get the hang of it or possibly it’s just that we have a manager who is thinking holistically.

We have signed a lot of youth talent, not allowed ourselves to be held hostage for crazy fee and not tried to do the quick fix type of deals. Not to say we have been perfect - I didn’t like the big contract we have to DDG particular as there were signs that his form had bee iffy. I don’t think it’s a big cost to let some players get longer contracts than what we would want - for instance, I don’t mind Matic being there for another 2 years earning 110k / week. He is a drop in replacement when we need him. Our biggest problems right now are DDG (400k / week), Pogba (300K) and martial (250k). That’s almost a million in wages per week on 3 players who I think are not playing to the level they need to be for the wages they get.
 
Surely the Sancho pursuit is proof of efforts being made to change this perception already?
 
Sandikan said:
What makes you certain there is a Sancho pursuit?
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I’m referring to last season’s where by all accounts we stood our ground for once and then still achieved top four the following season.

Refusing to be ripped off while not suffering severe side effects on the pitch is surely the first step?
 
I don't think the club have done anything stupid under Ole's management.

We've spent a fair bit, but in circumstances where it's difficult not to. When you're buying premier league commodities you have to pay up or go elsewhere. It's not about skills of negotiation, the clubs are wealthy enough to not deal with you unless you're close to their valuation. The club have reasoned they'd rather have the player than do that in a few cases. That isn't always going to be right, you can argue the merits of individual signings but the methodology of buying premier league players for a premium is not inherently bad.

I think we got fair value out of Fernandes, Telles. We didn't cave in on Sancho. Diallo could either be very expensive, average value or extremely cheap, too early to tell. I think there have been movements towards being a little more critical of our own decisions and spending overall.

I think the situation with contracts and sales could be improved, possibly. Resigning people like Jones was super strange, resigning Mata looks strange. Could we get more out of our sales? Maybe, but I don't think it's as easy as people on here claim. We pay even our worst players pretty well, their wage relative to value on the market is at a level that makes it extremely toilsome to extract good prices. Clubs inevitably want some of the total costs off the fee. We'd have to think about our overall wage policy. People compare Chelsea's sales but it's something of a false comparison, usually comparing guys that have performed out on loan for them or players at a good age with our absolute deadwood nobody is interested in!
 
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Good post. To make this strategy more realistic, we need to improve our scouting game big time.
We need to identify the Kantes at Cean, Kompany at Hamburg, Lewa at Poznan, Marcelo at Fluminense, Mahrez at Le Havre and a lot more like these.
Our aim should be to make at least one signing like this every season.
 
McTerminator said:
I’m referring to last season’s where by all accounts we stood our ground for once and then still achieved top four the following season.

Refusing to be ripped off while not suffering severe side effects on the pitch is surely the first step?
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That's just the Glazers being not able to afford Sancho's transfer and then getting their divided during covid.
 
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