Ineos has changed that. Most signings are very good and the approach is also much improved
Can we now safely say that our recruitment is much improved?
- Thread starter pocco
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I've been saying this all through the summer man, and so have many many people here and elsewhere. There is an alternate reality in which Amad just becomes one of the #10s, we sell Bruno, we sign one of Cunha / Mbeumo and spend the rest on a couple of midfielders and a RWB.
Anyway, it all comes down to game models and how we plan to play. If are okay with Amorim ball (at least the in-possession ideas) then even with hindsight it's the right decision to sign the three forwards. Sesko is tailor made for that target man role and can basically hold his own / win against most CBs in the league, Mbeumo and Cunha are just generally class and offer a good mix of ball carrying and vertical running.
I disagree quite fundamentally with his in-possession approach. It's basically David Moyes / bottom half type football. Open to having my views changed but let them beat the Fulhams and the Crystal Palaces of the world consistently and then we can re-consider.
2 CMs next summer and a LCB and I think this team is a very exciting prospect. If we can pick up a left footed Yoro that would be amazing
Would you actually go and do one, you absolute gowl. Have a smile for yourself for once. Casemiro has been great recently and all.
Old at 26 ffs.
You have a long way to go with your mentality and attitude toward things.
I would prefer a left wing back as a priority versus a centre back
With Martinez, Shaw and Heaven in the first team as well as Kukonki coming through I’d be very surprised if we bought another left footed centre back but I’d love Lukeba if we did as I think he’s a fantastic player.
I hope you were drunk when you wrote this, or you're 12
Agreed, but Cunha and Mbeumo were proven top players in the PL and were nobrainers. Lammens a positive surprise, looks very good. Sesko didn't have a proper preseason but Ekitike is clearly a more talented player. I hope Sesko makes it of course but I don't think so. We can maybe sack 80% of our scouts and buy good PL proven players...
25/26 years old, they haven't even hit their prime yet, never mind on the decline.
I don’t buy into the PL proven thing at all, but I get your point. Ultimately, clubs have to evaluate players based on their individual skill sets. The league where they played can be part of that logic but definitely not the guiding principle.
It's definitely true that players peak earlier than a lot of people think, as your second post highlights. Survivorship bias means people tend to underestimate how regularly players drop off in their late 20's into their 30's.
But there's a key difference between hitting your absolute peak in your mid-20's and being in what most people mean when they say a player is "in decline". Even if not at their absolute peak, a huge section of players sustain near-peak levels for years beyond that. To the point where many fans would have trouble identifying that peak without looking at the numbers.
For example, in terms of non-penalty goalscoring rate Harry Kane technically peaked when he was 23/24 years old. But absolutely nobody would say he's been "in decline" for the whole of the last 7+ years of his career. In fact many would subjectively say he's been better, even if his goalscoring metrics haven't hit that absolute peak again.
And while I think 26 is the upper end of the age range you should ideally be spending massive money on, even that comes with caveats.
The key context in the case of the Cunha/Mbeumo signings being the Rashford, Sancho, Antony and Garnacho departures in the same summer. That exodus of high wage, peak-age and (in Garnacho's case) regular gametime players isn't in any way normal, and distorts the profile of signings you can then afford to prioritise.
The rationale behind signing 26 year old Cunha & Mbeumo on big wages shifts when they're replacing Rashford & Sancho (average age 26) on substantially bigger wages, and providing the most concrete of upgrades in actually being able to play minutes for the club. Even more so when other attackers are also being sold. That degree of offset doesn't usually occur.
It's probably worth noting the significant reduction in our wage bill amidst the rather clear improvement in recruitment. We're bringing in better players, and paying less to do so.
Another factor that’s been largely ignored by many is how availability and timing shapes transfer priorities. Everyone knew we needed to reinforce in attack, midfield, striker and goal keeper, and everyone knew that we wouldn’t be able to address all our weaknesses in one summer window.
This past summer window, the reality was that there were some high level, PL proven attackers who wanted to come to us and who were actually available for fees that weren’t exorbitant, so it made sense to make the move for them rather than miss out on them. Meanwhile, many of the highly touted CMs we’re reportedly interested in were not on the market this summer unless absolutely outrageous fees were paid, as their clubs wanted to hang on to them for one more season. I have no doubt that shaped our transfer priorities this summer, because we’ve been burned in the past by spending all summer chasing particular targets which are harder to do deal for, only to be left desperately chasing scraps at the ends of the window after we don’t succeed (EG FDJ).
If we really are moving to a smarter, more long term approach in the market, then a key part of that is balancing shorter term priorities with your longer term transfer strategy - and that includes assessing when particular players who suit your needs are actually available for reasonable fees, and then shaping your transfer priorities around that. Rather than paying over the odds for a midfielder this summer and missing out on the likes of Cunha and Mbeumo, only to face higher fees next summer for other attacking players of that calibre.
We've had plenty of transformative transfers when we bought players from other EPL teams. Cantona, of course is the first name that comes to mind. Van Persie is another one. Keane, Rooney, Cole and Rio Ferdinand are other great examples. Plenty of players from other leagues can't meet the physicality and the intensity of the EPL.
Antony and Hojlund are the prime examples of players who struggled with the intensity and physicality of the EPL. It's not a coincidence that Hojlund looks decent in Serie A but was really struggling in the EPL. For me, it makes more sense to buy EPL proven players than the players from other leagues.
Obviously, players like Bruno have seamlessly adapted to the EPL coming from the Portuguese league but look at how many players from that league failed in the EPL. Even Wirtz who is a huge German talent, has been really struggling in the EPL so far.
Very much this. Rid of the bad apples and a good vibe seems to be developing. Really improved several areas but questions remain re wb and obvs mf. Credit to big Jim and recruit team in relatively short time considering the size of the job in hand. Total neglect from Glazers and EW but definite signs of improvement. Let’s see how we do against teams we tend to be less motivated about.
It's a great question but it's too early to say.
Part of what hurt us with our recruiting in years past is that the plan was to build a side that could win the PL. We spent huge sums on players who on paper would take us from being a top four club to a PL title contender. We know how that worked out in the end, but there was no denying what seemed at the time the obvious wisdom of bringing in Sancho, Antony, and Onana. That they all were flops may say less about recruiting than about management, which in retrospect was woeful. Ole and ETH had some superficial appeal but were clearly unfit for the job and we saw not only the aforementioned players collapse as professional athletes, but we all saw Rashford famously down his tools.
But if the point of this thread is praise the latest additions to the squad, I'm on board. Mbeumo and Cunha are massive upgrades over Rashford and Sancho and the more I watch Lammens the more I'm shocked that we actually landed him. Fine, it's early days, but Lammens looked like a keeper who has performed in front of a hostile Anfield crowd...and not once have I see him shit his shorts the way Onana did almost every match.
On a pure "recruitment" basis, whoever scouted Lammens earned his pay. Whoever scouted Onana and demanded we bring him in should have scored forever.
Part of what hurt us with our recruiting in years past is that the plan was to build a side that could win the PL. We spent huge sums on players who on paper would take us from being a top four club to a PL title contender. We know how that worked out in the end, but there was no denying what seemed at the time the obvious wisdom of bringing in Sancho, Antony, and Onana. That they all were flops may say less about recruiting than about management, which in retrospect was woeful. Ole and ETH had some superficial appeal but were clearly unfit for the job and we saw not only the aforementioned players collapse as professional athletes, but we all saw Rashford famously down his tools.
But if the point of this thread is praise the latest additions to the squad, I'm on board. Mbeumo and Cunha are massive upgrades over Rashford and Sancho and the more I watch Lammens the more I'm shocked that we actually landed him. Fine, it's early days, but Lammens looked like a keeper who has performed in front of a hostile Anfield crowd...and not once have I see him shit his shorts the way Onana did almost every match.
On a pure "recruitment" basis, whoever scouted Lammens earned his pay. Whoever scouted Onana and demanded we bring him in should have scored forever.
Don't know yet. Inconsistent so far but has looked better recently. Great to see a new keeper, looks good but should have happened much earlier.
Mbuemo was always gonna be great for me, Cunha looks good, not sure about his end product. I don't see what people on here see in Sesko, hope I'm wrong.
We're still on -1, we need to get a few wins together but it's the most promising it's been for a while. Got rid of a lot of rubbish which is great too.
Mbuemo was always gonna be great for me, Cunha looks good, not sure about his end product. I don't see what people on here see in Sesko, hope I'm wrong.
We're still on -1, we need to get a few wins together but it's the most promising it's been for a while. Got rid of a lot of rubbish which is great too.
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The United players you cited are from a completely different era before football transfers and skillsets became fully internationalized.
More recently, if we look at the amount of money......
- Liverpool (Wirtz, Ekitike, Frimpong)
- Arsenal (Gyokeres, Zubamedi,)
- Chelsea (Estavao, Gittens, Hato, Essugo, Sarr)
- Man City (Reijnders, Cherki, Donnarumma)
- Newcastle (Woltemade, Thiaw)
- Man United (Sesko, Lammens)
........ spent on foreign transfers, it strains credulity to believe that the concept of Premier League proven is an actual thing that clubs take seriously. If they did, they would buy almost exclusively only from other English clubs, but they don't.
They instead invest heavily in players from abroad just as they do in domestic players. That tells us that its probably not a league issue and more so a matter of clubs evaluating the individual skillset of each player and buying who they think best fits their system.
Come again..
Edit - Read all your other posts. You were slightly tricky with your wording. Or you’re misinterpreting those studies.
You said “start to decline” here.. but in other posts seemed to focus on players “peaks”.
I think “start to decline” is a massively off the mark way of describing attacking players when they hit 25-26.
A skim read of those articles also shows that there’s a high attribution to physical performance as meaning the “peak”. Now we’re not talking about Olympic sprinters here. Football is more than just physical performance.
Best attackers we’ve seen in the world over the last ten years. Ronaldo, Messi, Salah, Kane, Mane, Dembele, Greizmann, probs many more.
All continued to perform exceptionally well beyond 25-26 and in some of their cases even better after, like Dembele and Kane for example.
Improving decision making, technical ability, understanding of the game etc. see Scholes when converted into a DLP also.
So yeah, think you’ve taken all that as gospel when it simply doesn’t apply to all the layers involved with football.
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He might need a few minutes
25/26 is the new 30. When I was 25 I was depressed cause I knew I'll be 5 years older when I will be 30.
naughtyI didn’t previously, but I do now. The Premier League is the Super League. It’s way ahead of any other league, especially in terms of depth of quality and physicality. Everyone was raving about Wirtz (and he may yet come good) but you can see that he’s struggling with everyone being that bit faster and bit stronger.
Or look at Antony or McT tearing it up abroad. Antony would’ve been at least decent for us if he had a turn of pace and Scott is dominating Serie A through superior athleticism.
I think this is one of the most important aspects, even if we miss we don't lumber ourselves with a player we can't shift due to age or wages.
Always. Someone had to.
It's hard to not be optimistic at least. Cunha, Mbeumo, Lammens, and Sesko all look great or promising. For last season I'd say Yoro, De Ligt and Mazraoui look like really good signings, whereas there are question marks over Zirkzee, Dorgu and Ugarte. So we are hopefully getting to a decent ratio of good to bad signings. Also, with the ones that look a bit dodgy, I don't think we are losing a ton of value. It's not Antony or Sancho disaster signings - we can recuperate most of the fees paid for Zirkzee, Dorgu and Ugarte.
Mbeumo, Lammens, Sesko Yoro, Mazraoui, De Ligt and Cunha all look decent. It's early days on all of them, but they are all of the right age profile. What we really need is someone who comes in and is just a revelation, like Liverpool did with Salah and Mane.
The focus on youth is so good to see. It's a real positive.
Yoro, Dorgu, Leon, Heavan, Chido will all improve over time.
The biggest improvement by a country mile is the dressing room. The likes of Mbeumo, Cunha add quality which enhances competition.
It's notable that even the fringe players who have stayed are all grafters and work hard. Zirkzee, Mount, Maguire, Ugarte, Maz = not the first names on the team sheet but you never get the impression they'll create a toxic environment.
The players here all want to work, while some lack in the quality we ultimately need I don't see any of this current squad "downing tools" and not grafting. The Garnacho, Rashford and Sancho days look to be gone = which is amazing.
The time's of throwing money at over the hill players is gone = amazing to see.
I've always said Ineos/Amorin need a total transformation of the squad to properly see results. Time is never a managers friend but you cannot fault the transfer dealings thus far.
Yoro, Dorgu, Leon, Heavan, Chido will all improve over time.
The biggest improvement by a country mile is the dressing room. The likes of Mbeumo, Cunha add quality which enhances competition.
It's notable that even the fringe players who have stayed are all grafters and work hard. Zirkzee, Mount, Maguire, Ugarte, Maz = not the first names on the team sheet but you never get the impression they'll create a toxic environment.
The players here all want to work, while some lack in the quality we ultimately need I don't see any of this current squad "downing tools" and not grafting. The Garnacho, Rashford and Sancho days look to be gone = which is amazing.
The time's of throwing money at over the hill players is gone = amazing to see.
I've always said Ineos/Amorin need a total transformation of the squad to properly see results. Time is never a managers friend but you cannot fault the transfer dealings thus far.
Yes
Not sure if I would go so far as to call it a super league, but I would agree that the level of skill and intensity is definitely higher. But I would be careful about conflating the idea that a league is more difficult to excel in with the individual characteristics each player much have in order to thrive in it. This is likely why clubs continue buying a lot of players from abroad - because they've done their due diligence in scouting and assessing the specific skillsets of each player they need to fill specific roles at their clubs.
Well who was behind Onana? Him or someone else? INEOS at least greenlighted it and was the decision maker
Almost there, need a replacement for Ugarte. Casemiro has been doing a good job but tires after 60 minutes.
For the price and what he actually is as a player, yes he is.
Hasn`t been overwhelmingly good but it does feel like we have grown people in charge of things these days.
People that are at least trying to be responsible and sensible in most things, not out to brag about how much money we are able to piss away most years. No club comes even close to us in that sport.
People that are at least trying to be responsible and sensible in most things, not out to brag about how much money we are able to piss away most years. No club comes even close to us in that sport.
Yes. It's even more impressive if you just look at transfers since Amorim took over.
Maz
Heaven
Dorgu
Cunha
Mbeumo
Sesko
Sammens
I would give us an A+ except for the fact we did not sign a good DM which I think we needed more than anything else besides striker.
Maz
Heaven
Dorgu
Cunha
Mbeumo
Sesko
Sammens
I would give us an A+ except for the fact we did not sign a good DM which I think we needed more than anything else besides striker.
Don't we?
Ask me again next year.
Miss him where though?
I don't see him getting back into our first 11
Amad RWB
De Ligt or Yoro RDC
Who's that other than Kone? Or do you mean the two lads from Arsenal?
And look at how much Wirtz and Gyokeres are struggling in the EPL at the moment. I was the person who desperately wanted us to buy Gyokeres but maybe in hindsight it was a good idea to buy Sesko instead. Frimpong was one of the best fullbacks in Europe but he's now not even a regular starter for Liverpool.
Klopp actually bought a lot of "EPL proven" players. Mane and Van Dijk from Southampton and Robertson from Hull. Macalister is such a gem at Liverpool and he instantly became of their best players and he arrived from Brighton. Caicedo is also Chelsea's best player and he came from Brighton as well. Palmer from City as well.
That's not to disparage the transfers from other leagues, but players who come from other EPL teams adapt more quickly if they come to Utd and they'll more used to physicality and the intensity of the EPL. Our best player (Bruno) came from the Portuguese league and he adapted so quickly to the Premier League.
Even Arsenal is raiding a lot of Chelsea "rejects" and they are buying players like Eze from Palace. Our best player at the moment besides De Light is Mbeumo who quickly adapted to Utd. Even De Ligt needed a half of the season to adapt to the new environment and the physicality. Only now we are seeing how good De Ligt can be but he needed a while to adapt. I remember Ryan Gravenberch being terrible in his first Liverpool season, but then in his second season he exploded and he became one of the best midfielders in the EPL (he arrived from Bayern).
Obviously, you are still going to buy the players from other leagues and we did it in 2000s too. Ronaldo, Vidic, Evra, Nani, Park, Hargreaves were all successes while Veron and Forlan were big flops. So I definitely still believe in this concept of Prem proven players because it's still working for the likes of Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal.