Can we please just play a midfield 3...and stick with it this time!

[cyril C]

For the season yes, then we can play gomes in his position and if it doesn't work out we can keep trying to sign a 10 like we did with dybala and eriksen

Erikson should be available in Jan and if nobody bid for him then, Levy would surely sell him even if he doesn't want to stay in England.

Dybala, such a talented player, should be avoided. The reason that we did not trade Lukaku for him, was his "business background". Apparently he sold his image right to a 3rd party company (much like Tevez?) that to acquire this player, you need to satisfy a hungry Juventus, a hungry Dybala agent, and this hungry 3rd party Co for something in the range of 20m if I remember correctly.

 

[romufc]

We played 4-3-3 last year and I am sure Ole has thought long and hard about the system he wants to implement.

Playing 4-2-3-1 allows us to press higher up the pitch where the number 10 steps on either the free CB or CDM.

When you use a 4-3-3 without a workman like midfield, I think our pressing isn't as good.

 

[AneRu]

We played 4-3-3 last year and I am sure Ole has thought long and hard about the system he wants to implement.

Playing 4-2-3-1 allows us to press higher up the pitch where the number 10 steps on either the free CB or CDM.

When you use a 4-3-3 without a workman like midfield, I think our pressing isn't as good.

But we don't have the attacking players for this formation and we aren't at our creative best nor do we have the midfield stability to help us shut out tight games. 4-3-3 with the point forward allows us to maintain the principles of the 4-2-3-1 whilst having the advantage of playing our most creative player closer to goal. It all depends on whether Fred can establish himself into the side, of course, but at the moment I think it is our best bet because having Fred and McTominay shielding the defense will make us difficult to breakdown whilst Pogba forward gives not only creativity in advanced areas but another goal threat too as he is so good at the end of crosses.

 

[Havak]

I'm hoping we stick to this eventually too. My hope/assumption is that Ole is waiting for Fred to get up to speed, play some games from the bench and cup games before being trusted in a three with Pogba & McTominay.

 

[romufc]

But we don't have the attacking players for this formation and we aren't at our creative best nor do we have the midfield stability to help us shut out tight games. 4-3-3 with the point forward allows us to maintain the principles of the 4-2-3-1 whilst having the advantage of playing our most creative player closer to goal. It all depends on whether Fred can establish himself into the side, of course, but at the moment I think it is our best bet because having Fred and McTominay shielding the defense will make us difficult to breakdown whilst Pogba forward gives not only creativity in advanced areas but another goal threat too as he is so good at the end of crosses.

Yes, I agree but what we are lacking is a RW who can take someone on. we have been lacking this for a while now.

I agree having McT and Fred behind Pogba would work because you can still have Pogba drop and pick up the ball and Fred pushes on the odd occasion.

Having Perreira and Lingard in RW/CAM positions to create is not helping us. The reason why Pogba doesn't work as a No.10 is because he will never run past the striker whereas Lingard and Mata do. We just need to find the right balance.

 

[AneRu]

Yes, I agree but what we are lacking is a RW who can take someone on. we have been lacking this for a while now.

I agree having McT and Fred behind Pogba would work because you can still have Pogba drop and pick up the ball and Fred pushes on the odd occasion.

Having Perreira and Lingard in RW/CAM positions to create is not helping us. The reason why Pogba doesn't work as a No.10 is because he will never run past the striker whereas Lingard and Mata do. We just need to find the right balance.

RW is a major problem for us, it has been for years but repeated poor recruitment has meant that there has always been a more critical position to fill other than RW and that has held us back.

I think its pointless having Pereira and Lingard in the front four when they can't score or create, with Pogba we know he can do both. With James playing like a proper winger on the left play will be stretched so we don't need more that 'silent domination' that Lingard has made a career out of. Hopefully when Martial is back we can try Rashford on the right.

 

[Noc-Z]

I don't know what Oles preferred set-up would be as I don't think he has the personnel how he ideally wants it. Well I'd be surprised if he does with that midfield anyway!

But from what I've seen, to make the most of what we have I would play Fred and McTominay behind Pogba in a midfield 3.

Martial would be my striker, James on the left and I'm struggling to fill the right - Rashford I suppose for now.

 

[Ekeke]

We played 4-3-3 last year and I am sure Ole has thought long and hard about the system he wants to implement.

Playing 4-2-3-1 allows us to press higher up the pitch where the number 10 steps on either the free CB or CDM.

When you use a 4-3-3 without a workman like midfield, I think our pressing isn't as good.

Either way its going to be worse than last season when you lose Ander and dont replace him with a similar player coming in.

 

[Allas8]

Either way its going to be worse than last season when you lose Ander and dont replace him with a similar player coming in.

How is he doing in Franch anyway?

 

[romufc]

RW is a major problem for us, it has been for years but repeated poor recruitment has meant that there has always been a more critical position to fill other than RW and that has held us back.

I think its pointless having Pereira and Lingard in the front four when they can't score or create, with Pogba we know he can do both. With James playing like a proper winger on the left play will be stretched so we don't need more that 'silent domination' that Lingard has made a career out of. Hopefully when Martial is back we can try Rashford on the right.

That seems the most logical way because I think Fred is capable of getting the ball to Pogba and work as a double pivot with McT.

And I do think james is much better on the left, he looks a bigger threat there than on the right

 

[AgentP]

Agree with the OP. None of our current No.10s are good enough to warrant playing Pogba in a deeper role. When everyone's fit, our line up should be

DDG
AWB Lindelof Maguire Shaw
McT Fred
Rashford Pogba James
Martial​

 

[He'sRaldo]

Agree with the OP. None of our current No.10s are good enough to warrant playing Pogba in a deeper role. When everyone's fit, our line up should be

DDG
AWB Lindelof Maguire Shaw
McT Fred
Rashford Pogba James
Martial​

The thing with a 4-2-3-1 is, these days it's not very efficient for high pressure. It's better for counterattacking, which is why we always end up sitting deeper and deeper each match, as the first block gets bypassed very easily.

I'd prefer the exact same lineup, but with a 4-3-3.

 

[TRUERED89]

Pogba clearly isn't a midfielder who should be playing deep, he is best in an advanced / attacking midfield position and to play him there we either need a quality defensive midfielder (which we don't have) or we play two midfielders behind him. In Mctominay and Fred we have the two ideal candidates for that. Neither are defensive midfielders but both can tackle and are good at chasing down the ball, they are both box to box type midfielders IMO.

Mctominay and Fred behind Pogba in a midfield 3 would make us more solid defensively and get our most creative player in Pogba further up the pitch to improve our attack.

I don't see a better system for us at the moment and I hope Ole gives this a try once all 3 are fit.

It worked brilliantly last season with Matic and Herrara behind Pogba, so I see no reason why we shouldn't try it again, albeit with different faces behind him now. But, we need Pogba closer to the oppo goal that's where's he's been the most effective.

 

[haram]

I don't understand why people keep wanting Pogba as a number 10, that's not his position. What's wrong with him starting in the build up phase and advancing up the pitch as we retain possession? The only problem I have is that there should be another CM to play the deepest role instead of Scott or Pogba so that they can both go forward a bit more.

I said in pre season that the midfield set up didn't make sense to me.

 

[TRUERED89]

The only players that can give us a proper balance throughout our team (and the most quality throughout tbh). Just needs Fred to play like he is capable of and it can give us an excellent side. I dont mind a 4231, people focus too much on formations rather than the actual individual instructions. Also gives us a straightforward backup side too.

Martial
Rashford Pogba James
Fred McTominay
Shaw Maguire Lindelof AWB
De Gea

Greenwood
Chong Gomes Lingard
Garner Matic
Young Jones Bailly Dalot
Romero
​

Pereira/Mata as other options in that 3 behind striker in backup side.

I like it, I'd be happy with that.

 

[He'sRaldo]

The only players that can give us a proper balance throughout our team (and the most quality throughout tbh). Just needs Fred to play like he is capable of and it can give us an excellent side. I dont mind a 4231, people focus too much on formations rather than the actual individual instructions. Also gives us a straightforward backup side too.

Martial
Rashford Pogba James
Fred McTominay
Shaw Maguire Lindelof AWB
De Gea

Greenwood
Chong Gomes Lingard
Garner Matic
Young Jones Bailly Dalot
Romero
​

Pereira/Mata as other options in that 3 behind striker in backup side.

The formation is quite important especially defensively. A 4-2-3-1 gets bypassed too easily IMO.

 

[Ekeke]

How is he doing in Franch anyway?

Injured I think. Not that it has any bearing on the fact we lost our best pressing player

 

[Allas8]

Injured I think. Not that it has any bearing on the fact we lost our best pressing player

Lingard, Andreas, Mata and McTominay was our best pressing players last season, and they still are here.

 

[lex talionis]

The thing with a 4-2-3-1 is, these days it's not very efficient for high pressure. It's better for counterattacking, which is why we always end up sitting deeper and deeper each match, as the first block gets bypassed very easily.

I'd prefer the exact same lineup, but with a 4-3-3.

Pretty much this. I have no idea how good Fred can be, but we paid a fortune for him and he put in a pretty decent shift against PSG so let's give him a run of matches to find his rhythm.

Freeing Pogba is still the single most important tactical adjustment we can to wring the most we can out of this squad at this time. Pogba does orchestrate the transition from deep positions brilliantly but we need him further forward orchestrate the final phase of play and create scoring chances. Whether it's Fred or Pereira, someone needs to take over that deeper role to push Pogba up. Lingard can come of the bench or handle RW duties while Greenwood grows into the job.

 

[Ekeke]

Lingard, Andreas, Mata and McTominay was our best pressing players last season, and they still are here.

And we're doing a bad job of it. Because they werent our best pressing players. Ander was

 

[amolbhatia50k]

What's would change fundamentally if we switched to a 433. My understanding is that instead of two deep midfielders and one very advanced midfielder (the 10), you have three midfielders playing off each other with one deeper than the other two. I suppose the issue with the 4231 is that you should have a 10 who excels in tight spaces as he'll always be surrounded by a cluster of defenders. And Mata is lacking in physicality for that, and Lingard/Periera are lacking in everything for that.

Correct? If so, what the arguments for the 4231 and why does Ole prefer it?

 

[Allas8]

Correct? If so, what the arguments for the 4231 and why does Ole prefer it?

Playing with two holding midfielders and wide wingers is Manchester United DNA. There is no Champions League this season, so we don't have to switch to a less attacking formation to secure a result over 2 games. Gone are the days where we worry about how the opponents play, and react to that, we just focus on our own play and develop that, so we will be sticking with 4-2-3-1 this season.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Playing with two holding midfielders and wide wingers is Manchester United DNA. There is no Champions League this season, so we don't have to switch to a less attacking formation to secure a result over 2 games. Gone are the days where we worry about how the opponents play, and react to that, we just focus on our own play and develop that, so we will be sticking with 4-2-3-1 this season.

So how is 4231 more attacking? Didn't Barcelona ar their peak/under Enrique, City under Pep, Liverpool under Klopp, Madrid under Zidane all play 433?

 

[Allas8]

So how is 4231 more attacking? Didn't Barcelona ar their peak/under Enrique, City under Pep, Liverpool under Klopp, Madrid under Zidane all play 433?

Barcelona plays more possession football, its just that their players tend to be brilliant. Like United want to move the ball forward quickly, playing at high tempo, attack attack attack. While Barcelona plays slower, builds the game more, sideways passes, backward passes and so on. Its not like this is mutual exclusive, but 4-2-3-1 is a high pace, high press, counterattacking formation, maybe that's how I should have worded it.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Barcelona plays more possession football, its just that their players tend to be brilliant. Like United want to move the ball forward quickly, playing at high tempo, attack attack attack. While Barcelona plays slower, builds the game more, sideways passes, backward passes and so on. Its not like this is mutual exclusive, but 4-2-3-1 is a high pace, high press, counterattacking formation, maybe that's how I should have worded it.

What formation does Klopp play at Liverpool?

I suppose you're right but I dont see many of the succesful teams of recent times playing 4231.

 

[davidmichael]

Unless we play Fred as the out and out defensive midfielder or take a chance on Garner us playing 4-3-3 right now means relying on Matic and to be honest I’d take a traffic cone over Matic these days, he plays like he’s got concrete blocks on his feet preventing mobility.

If we signed an out and out defensive midfielder like Declan Rice and played any of McTominay, Fred or Garner alongside him with Pogba allowed to do his own thing then I’m all for a 4-3-3 especially if we manage to sign Sancho, I think if we signed Rice and Maddison/Eriksen then we’d be very tactically flexible and strong playing either 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1.

I do think Pogba later in his career will be great in a midfield 2 but right now he wouldn’t be used to his best playing in a midfield 2, I think playing alongside a defensive midfielder (Rice) and playmaker (Maddison/Eriksen) in games against smaller teams who park the bus then a defensive midfielder and a disciplined box to box midfielder (McTominay) in hard away games is how we’d get the best out of Pogba in a 4-3-3.

 

[Allas8]

What formation does Klopp play at Liverpool?

I suppose you're right but I dont see many of the succesful teams of recent times playing 4231.

That just goes back to my other point, why should we care how other teams play. We are Manchester Untied, we know how to play football our self, we don't need other teams to teach us how to play football. We are in a rebuild phase, where we are trying to get back to what have succeeded for us in the past, so just wait and see how it goes.

Football is evolving, after SAF retired our football philosophy have been all over the place. The fact that Manchester United stopped playing with 2 holding midfielders might also have contributed to 4-3-3 taking over as the dominant formation. And at the end of the day, we want a formation that is tailored to winning the League, not at beating Barcelona.

And just one more time, I hold zero care for what liverpool does.

 

[romufc]

What formation does Klopp play at Liverpool?

I suppose you're right but I dont see many of the succesful teams of recent times playing 4231.

Yes, that is the way to success try copy another team when.

We need to have our own style of play that suits the squad and manager.

 

[Amerifan]

I get why Ole is playing the formation he is. He wants to play it in the future and needs to get everyone used to it. The challenge with 4-2-3-1 currently is he doesn’t have a proper #10 in the squad. One could argue we would benefit from a poacher #9 as well.

So he either plays to his current team’s strengths with a 4-3-3, or continues building towards the future at the risk of results this season. I like that he is thinking long term.

 

[Amerifan]

I believe Ole plays Mata as #10 this season, so no excuse on poor performance. Mata is simply too slow, not just about running but in every movement as well. may be OK after 90min when everyone is tired.

I think Mata is fine when playing on a short pitch. It’s when the other team doesn’t park the bus that his lack of speed becomes a liability.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Yes, that is the way to success try copy another team when.

We need to have our own style of play that suits the squad and manager.

It is important to be aware of trends and what is working in today's day and age. Obviously nothing like doing something original but ignorance does no good. And picking a 433 is not copying just like picking a 4231 is not original in itself.

 

[AneRu]

Playing with two holding midfielders and wide wingers is Manchester United DNA. There is no Champions League this season, so we don't have to switch to a less attacking formation to secure a result over 2 games. Gone are the days where we worry about how the opponents play, and react to that, we just focus on our own play and develop that, so we will be sticking with 4-2-3-1 this season.

Problem is we don't have the two wide players and a No.10 to make it work, whereas in midfield we don't have two top midfielders needed for that. Without genuine threat from wide areas we are just not playing to our strengths.

 

[Allas8]

Problem is we don't have the two wide players and a No.10 to make it work, whereas in midfield we don't have two top midfielders needed for that. Without genuine threat from wide areas we are just not playing to our strengths.

So are you suggesting we should revert back to 'park the bus' strategys, as that's clearly the strength of our squad that the former manager was trying to build.

This squad strength is not in 4-3-3 either, if you don't think we have top midfielders, playing more of them is not to our strength. And what sort of wide threat do we have in 4-3-3 that we don't have in 4-2-3-1?

 

[Teja]

The problem then is that Pogba goes missing in games because he's marked out and none of our deeper midfielders can actually control a game. We're sacrificing some creativity for control which is probably the right tradeoff right now. We should either buy a #10 (or maybe try out different players there) or buy a deeper lying playmaker in the Carrick mould who can dictate games and free up Pogba to play further forward.

 

[AneRu]

So are you suggesting we should revert back to 'park the bus' strategys, as that's clearly the strength of our squad that the former manager was trying to build.

This squad strength is not in 4-3-3 either, if you don't think we have top midfielders, playing more of them is not to our strength. And what sort of wide threat do we have in 4-3-3 that we don't have in 4-2-3-1?

A 4-3-3 uses three forwards as opposed to a central striker flanked by two wingers. The three midfielders also cover for each other's weaknesses.

 

[tenpoless]

Pogba----Mc T---
-------Fred-------

and Fred will get destroyed

---Fred-----Mc T---
-------Pogba-------

and Pogba will play like a headless chicken

---Pogba-----Fred---
----------Mc T--------

is probably best since Matic apparently cannot play football anymore, for some reason. But Mc T will spend most of the time playing in his own half...

 

[Allas8]

A 4-3-3 uses three forwards as opposed to a central striker flanked by two wingers. The three midfielders also cover for each other's weaknesses.

So since our midfield is so weak, we need to play more midfielder to make it stronger? Sounds to me like we end up playing with a player down with a weak midfield, but whatever.

 

[keener]

For people that say they cant understand why Pogba is touted as a 10, he is one of our most creative players and can go forward to help produce chances better than most players on our team. On a high press team, Mata (the best creator on the team) lacks that defensive intensitiy so we need Pog further forward. Additionally, he tends to lose too many balls for a deep lying midfielder. While I'm not in love with the idea of Fred as a starter, we are not very deep in the midfield and until Gomes earns his way into the squad, I'd go with McTom, Fred and Pogba.

I like a 433 and prefer an inverted triangle with only one more defensive midfielder.... but maybe this is semantics because a 433 can take many shapes during a game.

 

[He'sRaldo]

I was messing about trying to think of the best formation to fit our good players, while limiting the cloggers. This is what I came up with:

Talking Points:


- With the departure of Lukaku and Sanchez, we're going to need as much firepower as possible. Playing Pogba high up, along with 2 high energy box-to-box midfielders, can make up for some of the goals we'll inevitably lose in the absence of other strikers.


- Martial, Rashford, and Greenwood all seem to operate better as wide strikers in the half-spaces rather than touchline hugging wingers or central strikers. This formation ensures that they play in those favourable positions. It also has the added bonus of shifting Rashford to the right but not as a winger; that way he can focus on what he does best: runs behind the defence instead of dribbles into cul-de-sacs. When Dan James plays, he can play his usual game on the left, with Pogba and one of the other midfielders providing a target in the box for crosses, along with the other striker.


- The midfield diamond is perfect for both Pogba and Matic, as they will have high work-rate midfielders who can cover for them while they try to cover passing lanes. If they can free Pogba to focus on attacking, and Matic to operate in a Carrick-like role, we'll be better for it. They can also cover the flanks for the wide strikers so they don't have to track back too much.


- The defensive line needs to be very high and brave, even in the absence of very quick defenders. Pogba and Matic due to their large frames don't have the acceleration and stamina for long-distance running, so we need to operate in a much smaller area defensively. Additionally, if we're to do a high press we need to be very compact as we're pressing; we can't press high only to run back into our half every time, we'll burn out. Bravery is required, to stand their ground against attackers instead of running back into a low block. If the opposition beat our high line and score, we take it on the chin.


- With 2 box to box mids, the intent must be very aggressive and attacking. They'll need to chip in with goals to help the 2 and a half strikers, so no hesitating to get into the box.


Any additional thoughts?

 

[wolvored]

If we dont start playing Gomes regular this season he will be gone in the summer. He is in his last season here, unless he re-signs. This will only happen if Ole agrees to play him more in the first team imo.