Cancel Culture

[NotThatSoph]

@Soph I've not seen you around before and your username is a thing I associate mainly with a neo-nazi teenage girl on Youtube. This is gonna take some getting over.

I know and I hate it, I've heard what happens if I ask for a change though.

 

[Revan]

I think one solution is to stop talking about anything particularly complex on the internet. Keep your opinions to yourself and just treat people how they'd like to treated.

Treating people how they like to be treated is a good advice and people should do so.

Keeping the opinions to yourself is kinda bullshit though. There is the freedom of speech thingy. And also, only some opinions seem to be needed to be kept to yourself, with a vocal minority deciding what are those opinions.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Sure. And as soon as they stop breeding together they have mixed race children.

Sure but it's called race because of our innate need to classify things. At the basic level we are all homo sapiens sapiens with minor variations in our DNA.

 

[BobbyManc]

• Race Is a Social Construct, Scientists Argue, from Scientific American.
• How Science and Genetics are Reshaping the Race Debate of the 21st Century, Harvard University.
• Is Race Real?, American Scientist.
• There’s No Scientific Basis for Race—It's a Made-Up Label, National Geographic.
• Race Is Real, But It’s Not Genetic, Sapiens.
• Biology of Race, Biology Reference.
• Race: a Biological or Social Concept, Kwabi-Addo B. (2017) Race: a Biological or Social Concept. In: Health Outcomes in a Foreign Land. Springer, Cham
• Biological Races in Humans, Templeton A. R. (2013). Biological races in humans. Studies in history and philosophy of biological and biomedical sciences, 44(3), 262–271. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.shpsc.2013.04.010
• THE RISE AND FALL OF THE BIOLOGICAL CONCEPT OF RACE, Omoto, K. (1997). THE RISE AND FALL OF THE BIOLOGICAL CONCEPT OF RACE. Japan Review, (9), 65-73. Retrieved July 8, 2020, from www.jstor.org/stable/25791001

I tried to find varied sources. Different fields, peer-reviewed scientific articles, opinion pieces, from scientists and Pulitzer Price winning journalists, in the hope of at least one of them are outside of the uber-woke hole.

He can't lose face now so he's going to continue to peddle his pseudoscience in spite of the overwhelming evidence and scientific consensus against his view. There is as strong a consensus on this within the field of genetics and biology as there is about evolution. The idea it's simply 'woke' nonsense only shows how woefully ill-informed some people still are.

 

[dumbo]

I can't help but feel that J.K. Rowling isn't helping herself with irritating and sarcastic responses like this (tweeted to someone who now regrets signing the 'cancel culture' letter):

She's a nasty bully. Putting aside the rights and wrongs of the definitions of sex/gender row, the way she goes at people and with the following she has is despicable, not to mention the hate accounts she promotes and encourages.

 

[JPRouve]

I’m using race and ethnicity interchangeably, as I don’t think the difference matters to the point I’m making. Ditto with my use of “black” and “white”. I would have thought that a wee bit of charity and common sense would get what I mean, without crucifying me over semantics. Although this would be the perfect thread for that to happen!

But yeah, a restricted genetic pool is the most important factor for biological differences between “races”. Ashkenazi jews have some really interesting genetic quirks, likewise Irish travellers (who have extremely rare metabolic disorders) mainly down to an extremely restricted gene pool.

On a larger scale, the differences are more subtle but they’re still important. At the end of the day it’s preposterous to try and claim that races/ethnicities that have phenotypical differences that are blatantly obvious to the naked eye don’t have important differences “under the hood” as as well. Almost as preposterous as the idea that these differences don’t exist at all.

I get your first paragraph, it makes things easier but these terms have no reality. I won't crucify you on that because we all do it, I think that I know a bit about the subject and still lazily go with the easiest terms. Now if we are talking about science and medical implications then we really shouldn't mix them and we should ditch the term race because it has no meaning, no reality. Identifying ancestries and genetic pools is on the other hand important but race and ethnicities are social constructs.

 

[DOTA]

I know and I hate it, I've heard what happens if I ask for a change though.

Wise. I only dared ask for my name change given there was a global pandemic and 'disease of the age' didn't seem fun for anyone anymore.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I get your first paragraph, it makes things easier but these terms have no reality. I won't crucify you on that because we all do it, I think that I know a bit about the subject and still lazily go with the easiest terms. Now if we are talking about science and medical implications then we really shouldn't mix them and we should ditch the term race because it has no meaning, no reality. Identifying ancestries and genetic pools is on the other hand important but race and ethnicities are social constructs.

Ok, yes. Ancestries, genetic pools, whatever. Perhaps those are better terms to use. And I absolutely agree that lumping all “Africans” together is reductive.

Anyhoo. Now we’ve mapped the genome - and any individual can get their own genetics analysed for a pittance - we’ll be able to focus on the genetic differences that really matter when it comes to treatment decisions. Without trying to decode people based on their physical appearance.

Whatever, if it’s important to people that the very concept of race/ethnicity gets cancelled then by all means, crack on. As a linguistic shorthand I can’t see the problem, but as I said this is the perfect thread for people to sneer at other people over semantic differences. If it’s good enough for twitter...

 

[JPRouve]

Maybe. But people who know a hell of a lot more about this than you and I seem comfortable with classifying “African-American“ as a category of patients with their own unique therapeutic needs (they also use “black” and “white” liberally in that publication - stone them!).

The UK equivalent would be “Afro-Caribbean” I presume that mainly means West African descent but they don’t seem to think it matters whether or not this population would be exclusively of that heritage.

Because African-Americans aren't simply sub-saharians or "blacks", they are almost exclusively west Africans and come from three major ethnicities(Fulani, Yoruba and Igbo) that are then divided in smaller groups, these are to some extent mixed with each others.

 

[DOTA]

any individual can get their own genetics analysed for a pittance

I think it's probably important to point out that these tests aren't scientific and they just make shit up to appease whatever fantasies their target demographic have regarding their ancestry.

 

[NotThatSoph]

Ok, yes. Ancestries, genetic pools, whatever. Perhaps those are better terms to use. And I absolutely agree that lumping all “Africans” together is reductive.

Anyhoo. Now we’ve mapped the genome - and any individual can get their own genetics analysed for a pittance - we’ll be able to focus on the genetic differences that really matter when it comes to treatment decisions. Without trying to decode people based on their physical appearance.

Whatever, if it’s important to people that the very concept of race/ethnicity gets cancelled then by all means, crack on. As a linguistic shorthand I can’t see the problem, but as I said this is the perfect thread for people to sneer at other people over semantic differences. If it’s good enough for twitter...

I think we can better summarize what happened here.

People were talking about social constructs, then race came up. Different people posted things about why race is a social construct, what race means in a biological sense et cetera. Then you waded in saying that race is definitively real, and laughed at the "uber-woke". You were wrong, so a bunch of people corrected you.

Instead of acknowledging that, you say whatever and talk about semantic differences and how the concept of race have been "cancelled", when reality is that it's not semantic at all. In fact, that's why biologists are very careful when talking about this subject, because the differences matter and are important. Scientists want to get things right, which is why race is rejected. Twitter, though, haha people are getting worked up. Not you, though.

You're basically doing the middle age white guy routine @DOTA described earlier.

 

[2 man midfield]

Treating people how they like to be treated is a good advice and people should do so.

Keeping the opinions to yourself is kinda bullshit though. There is the freedom of speech thingy. And also, only some opinions seem to be needed to be kept to yourself, with a vocal minority deciding what are those opinions.

This is just my own strategy tbh. If everyone's opinions/past activities were on public display, would anyone have a job next monday? The difference comes in the fact you choose to put these things in the public domain.

Of course the freedom of speech point is a valid one, but I also tend to subscribe to the view that if you don't want members of the public to disagree with you, don't engage with them in the first place. No-one is going to track you down to call you a cnut.

 

[KirkDuyt]

@Soph I've not seen you around before and your username is a thing I associate mainly with a neo-nazi teenage girl on Youtube. This is gonna take some getting over.

This made me google "soph"

What the feck is wrong with the world.

 

[DOTA]

This made me google "soph"

What the feck is wrong with the world.

My money is on her being a revolutionary anarchist in a few years. Parents can be bad.

 

[BobbyManc]

I think we can better summarize what happened here.

People were talking about social constructs, then race came up. Different people posted things about why race is a social construct, what race means in a biological sense et cetera. Then you waded in saying that race is definitively real, and laughed at the "uber-woke". You were wrong, so a bunch of people corrected you.

Instead of acknowledging that, you say whatever and talk about semantic differences and how the concept of race have been "cancelled", when reality is that it's not semantic at all. In fact, that's why biologists are very careful when talking about this subject, because the differences matter and are important. Scientists want to get things right, which is why race is rejected. Twitter, though, haha people are getting worked up. Not you, though.

You're basically doing the middle age white guy routine @DOTA described earlier.

I expected to read some funny views on this thread but the idea that it’s ‘woke’ to believe in the fields of genetics and biology and it’s part of ‘cancel culture’ to acknowledge the scientific consensus that race is purely a social construct...yeah I didn’t see that one coming.

 

[Revan]

This is just my own strategy tbh. If everyone's opinions/past activities were on public display, would anyone have a job next monday? The difference comes in the fact you choose to put these things in the public domain.

Of course the freedom of speech point is a valid one, but I also tend to subscribe to the view that if you don't want members of the public to disagree with you, don't engage with them in the first place. No-one is going to track you down to call you a cnut.

Oh, I agree that for self-preservation this is the right thing. What I don't really understand though, is that the opinions which might be said in public seem to need to be approved from a small group of people.

I mean saying in TV that there are only two genders gives you a Salem witch trial (I don't have a strong opinion on this, and I am fine with whatever number of genders people want) instead of a proper discussion. On the other hand, a batshit crazy opinion like 'sex is not a biological thing' seems perfectly okay to say.

I brought a simple example but I can bring many. As I mentioned yesterday, I was at the end of receiving hate for simply saying facts. Finally, there is using the racism card to advance your career, which IMO is as bad as racism itself, but try saying it on the public.

 

[nimic]

I mean saying in TV that there are only two genders gives you a Salem witch trial instead of a proper discussion. On the other hand, a batshit crazy opinion like 'sex is not a biological thing' seems perfectly okay to say.

Not exactly a nuanced description.

 

[Revan]

Not exactly a nuanced description.

Explain.

 

[DOTA]

On the other hand, a batshit crazy opinion like 'sex is not a biological thing' seems perfectly okay to say.

I think you may be confusing 'sex is actually more complicated than a binary' which is by far the majority opinion in science, with 'sex is not a biological thing'.

 

[nimic]

Explain.

It's just that you act neutral, but your language is not very neutral.

There's also this, which IMO is a really silly thing to say:

Finally, there is using the racism card to advance your career, which IMO is as bad as racism itself

 

[DOTA]

It's just that you act neutral, but your language is not very neutral.

There's also this, which IMO is a really silly thing to say:

I didn't read that far. For the love of...

 

[2 man midfield]

Oh, I agree that for self-preservation this is the right thing. What I don't really understand though, is that the opinions which might be said in public seem to need to be approved from a small group of people.

I mean saying in TV that there are only two genders gives you a Salem witch trial (I don't have a strong opinion on this, and I am fine with whatever number of genders people want) instead of a proper discussion. On the other hand, a batshit crazy opinion like 'sex is not a biological thing' seems perfectly okay to say.

I brought a simple example but I can bring many. As I mentioned yesterday, I was at the end of receiving hate for simply saying facts. Finally, there is using the racism card to advance your career, which IMO is as bad as racism itself, but try saying it on the public.

Yeah, but it's a pretty provocative opinion to hold I guess. Anyone who goes on TV and says it probably knows full well the controversy it will generate as well. This is sort of what I mean, does nobody just keep their opinions to themselves anymore? Politics used to be a subject that people kept quite closely guarded, whereas now people will proudly tell you which mast they've nailed their colours to. I guess it shouldn't come as a shock that we see so much vitriol given this combined with the anonymity of social media. People now seem to like living their lives like an open wound, and don't really hold anything back from the public eye. It's all posted online, everything they do, eat, believe, say. They seem to think other people need to accept them 'warts and all or not at all', then act dumbfounded when people say 'well, not at all then'.

Your case is a more nuanced one I'll admit, and you shouldn't be getting abuse for carefully explaining your point of view. But anything relating to identity politics is a loaded subject right now, especially on twitter and it seems to bring out the worst in people. Other than reporting them, I'm not sure what else you can do. As a wider point though, I do think people, especially companies need to have a bit more perspective when they attribute so much power to 5 or 6 idiots on twitter. They're 5 or 6 people out of 7 billion, and you don't need to cave to their demands just because they ask you to.

This is why cancel culture even exists, because business is about minimising risk and they don't want to be the subject of the next boycott. The only surefire way to do that is to placate them and put out the fire. Look at BLM - were companies rushing to champion that because they genuinely cared for black lives? Or did they do it because they didn't want some woke teenager pointing out that they hadn't? These companies tweeting about black lives matter are the same ones running sweat shops in Cambodia. The whole thing is a facade, everyone acts holier than thou on twitter and keeping up appearances is the aim of the game. The only way to win is to just not take part.

I've also realised that I've kind of broken my own rule. Oh well. That Olly guy has it right.

 

[Moby]

Finally, there is using the racism card to advance your career, which IMO is as bad as racism itself,

No it's literally nowhere near as bad.

 

[DOTA]

I've also realised that I've kind of broken my own rule. Oh well. That Olly guy has it right.

Didn't Olly leave because he was fed up of right wing bullshit like you just posted?

 

[entropy]

• Race Is a Social Construct, Scientists Argue, from Scientific American.
• How Science and Genetics are Reshaping the Race Debate of the 21st Century, Harvard University.
• Is Race Real?, American Scientist.
• There’s No Scientific Basis for Race—It's a Made-Up Label, National Geographic.
• Race Is Real, But It’s Not Genetic, Sapiens.
• Biology of Race, Biology Reference.
• Race: a Biological or Social Concept, Kwabi-Addo B. (2017) Race: a Biological or Social Concept. In: Health Outcomes in a Foreign Land. Springer, Cham
• Biological Races in Humans, Templeton A. R. (2013). Biological races in humans. Studies in history and philosophy of biological and biomedical sciences, 44(3), 262–271. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.shpsc.2013.04.010
• THE RISE AND FALL OF THE BIOLOGICAL CONCEPT OF RACE, Omoto, K. (1997). THE RISE AND FALL OF THE BIOLOGICAL CONCEPT OF RACE. Japan Review, (9), 65-73. Retrieved July 8, 2020, from www.jstor.org/stable/25791001

I tried to find varied sources. Different fields, peer-reviewed scientific articles, opinion pieces, from scientists and Pulitzer Price winning journalists, in the hope of at least one of them are outside of the uber-woke hole.

It really shouldn't require citing Pulitzer winning work to understand something so basic. Most of the points being made in this thread are just down to common sense and being a tad bit sensitive towards marginalized communities. It’s not a herculean task by any measure. No matter how many times one complains about it.

 

[2 man midfield]

Didn't Olly leave because he was fed up of right wing bullshit like you just posted?

whatever

 

[Revan]

It's just that you act neutral, but your language is not very neutral.

There's also this, which IMO is a really silly thing to say:

No it's literally nowhere near as bad.

Why not? In one, you're being a dick for thinking that you are superior based on some biological accident, and potentially depriving others opportunities/jobs based in that. In the other, you are doing exactly the same, plus shaming someone to further advance your agenda.

Same shit, different smell.

 

[Moby]

and potentially depriving others opportunities/jobs based in that.

In what world does racism start and end with depriving someone of a job?

Are you also an All Lives Matter supporter by any chance? I'd honestly suggest you take a pause before continuing your attempts to further trivialize an issue like racism. It's not really a sensible thing to do in a public space.

 

[villain]

Why not? In one, you're being a dick for thinking that you are superior based on some biological accident, and potentially depriving others opportunities/jobs based in that. In the other, you are doing exactly the same, plus shaming someone to further advance your agenda.

Same shit, different smell.

If this is what you've reduced racism to, it's no wonder you think something as trivial as 'using the racism card to advance your career' is worse.

 

[JPRouve]

To be fair I can see it. Being lynched or hanged due to your race is as bad as trying to advance your career through immoral means.

 

[Revan]

If this is what you've reduced racism to, it's no wonder you think something as trivial as 'using the racism card to advance your career' is worse.

No, I did not reduces the racism to that, I gave one example of what racism can affect (and what also playing the racism card can affect).

In what world does racism start and end with depriving someone of a job?


Are you also an All Lives Matter supporter by any chance? I'd honestly suggest you take a pause before continuing your attempts to further trivialize an issue like racism. It's not really a sensible thing to do in a public space.

No.

 

[Moby]

No, I did not reduces the racism to that, I gave one example of what racism can affect (and what also playing the racism card can affect).

That's not in line with your earlier statement where you equated someone using their race to get a job advancement to the entire issue of racism.

 

[Revan]

That's not in line with your earlier statement where you equated someone using their race to get a job advancement to the entire issue of racism.

It doesn't. I can think that using the racism card to pursue some agenda is as bad as racism itself, while also giving an example that is as devastating in both sides without the sentences being not in line with each other.

 

[Moby]

It doesn't.

Can you read what you've written yourself?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I think it's probably important to point out that these tests aren't scientific and they just make shit up to appease whatever fantasies their target demographic have regarding their ancestry.

Are you talking about the likes of “23andMe”? They’re scientific, by any definition, and they’re not making shit up but yeah, they’re flawed. That’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about proper genotypic testing for targetted therapies.

Genetic differences matter in medicine and race (even though the very concept is being denied by some in this thread) can be a helpful proxy. But it’s a crude differentiator, for obvious reasons.

Once we’ve really nailed down the genes that matter for important diseases - and can tailor treatments to specific genotypes - medical treatments will get exponentially safer and more effective. It’s also a game changer for screening and preventative medicine. We’re not quite there yet but we’re very close.

 

[villain]

No, I did not reduces the racism to that, I gave one example of what racism can affect (and what also playing the racism card can affect).

There's many things that affect the ability to get a job, keep a job and advance within a job.
I'm sure there's some people who 'use the racism card' to further their career (I don't believe a racism card exists, and it's a stupid phrase) there's many more people who deprive others of jobs because of x-ism, there's plenty of other people who get jobs because of who they know/friendships they've made.

You're implying that minorities use their oppression as a privilege in a specific example and somehow equating that to racism - whilst not acknowledging or being aware of the effect of racism on said minority to even be put in that position in the first place.

But hey if you are aware of jobs which promote ethnic minorities for no reason other than the fact that they are an ethnic minority - let me know, I have family members who could do with a better job.

 

[DOTA]

Are you talking about the likes of “23andMe”? They’re scientific, by any definition, and they’re not making shit up but yeah, they’re flawed. That’s not what I’m talking about.

My sister is a geneticist and she says they make it up. What's your view?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

My sister is a geneticist and she says they make it up. What's your view?

My view would be a) They don’t make it up and b) You’re either misrepresenting or misunderstanding what your sister actually thinks.

 

[DOTA]

My view would be a) They don’t make it up and b) You’re either misrepresenting or misunderstanding what your sister actually thinks.

She thinks they design their methodology to create the results their clientele want to hear.

 

[dumbo]

Part semantic, part taxonomical, part featherless biped. All internet winning.