It shows we need a new midfield, it doesn’t show we need Baleba.
Carlos Baleba
- Thread starter dinostar77
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It shows we need a new midfield, it doesn’t show we need Baleba.
Him and Fernandes are probably the most likely midfield signings for us this summer. I guess we'll try for Anderson and Tchouameni first though and then try to wrap this up, if they're too expensive/unavailable.
I'd take it to be honest. Both good players with the right profile and awesome potential.
I'd take it to be honest. Both good players with the right profile and awesome potential.
Are Mateus Fernandes and Baleba different enough so that it would be reasonable to sign both of them?
I'm no expert, I've basically just looked them both up on DataMB and watched compilations, but it looks to me like Fernandes should be targeted before Baleba.
I'm no expert, I've basically just looked them both up on DataMB and watched compilations, but it looks to me like Fernandes should be targeted before Baleba.
I'm posting in the Baleba thread for a reason. Evidently I'm speaking of a player with his qualities. I shouldn't need to add disclaimers or accommodating language for context that should be pretty easy to read
The reality, which is an absolute obvious one to me that many don’t want to address - is the real problem is Kobbie Mainoo.
Baleba is plenty comfortable enough on the ball for a defensive midfielder. The problem is, due to the idea that whoever we bring in needs to partner Kobbie Mainoo - nobody wants Wharton because he can’t run, and nobody wants Baleba because he ‘can’t pass’. The reason these are big issues is because Mainoo doesn’t do either of them well enough. As such, people seem to have resigned themselves to anything other than some unicorn midfield hybrid of Kante and Toni Kroos cannot work.
If Mainoo were say, Jim Thwaites - people’s would say Baleba was cool as what we need is legs. The problem is, as an 8, Mainoo needs both legs and passing to be carried by tis Casemiro replacement. Nothing wrong with Baleba, nothing wrong with Tchouameni etc. Go to Tchouameni’s thread and all you’re seeing is ‘progressive passing’ this and that. One of the top DMs about.
The fact is, there are huge questionmarks over whether Mainoo offers enough juice for the squeeze. People are saying we can bring in two - one runner, one passer. Let’s say we do so and they are both good players - what real justification would Mainoo have to keep either of them out of the team? The obvious partnership would be to pair the top physical DM with the top passing midfielder over whatever Mainoo offers. I like Mainoo a lot, but I think these questions are valid. They are not massively dissimilar to some of the questions over balance that arose when Pogba was here.
Baleba is plenty comfortable enough on the ball for a defensive midfielder. The problem is, due to the idea that whoever we bring in needs to partner Kobbie Mainoo - nobody wants Wharton because he can’t run, and nobody wants Baleba because he ‘can’t pass’. The reason these are big issues is because Mainoo doesn’t do either of them well enough. As such, people seem to have resigned themselves to anything other than some unicorn midfield hybrid of Kante and Toni Kroos cannot work.
If Mainoo were say, Jim Thwaites - people’s would say Baleba was cool as what we need is legs. The problem is, as an 8, Mainoo needs both legs and passing to be carried by tis Casemiro replacement. Nothing wrong with Baleba, nothing wrong with Tchouameni etc. Go to Tchouameni’s thread and all you’re seeing is ‘progressive passing’ this and that. One of the top DMs about.
The fact is, there are huge questionmarks over whether Mainoo offers enough juice for the squeeze. People are saying we can bring in two - one runner, one passer. Let’s say we do so and they are both good players - what real justification would Mainoo have to keep either of them out of the team? The obvious partnership would be to pair the top physical DM with the top passing midfielder over whatever Mainoo offers. I like Mainoo a lot, but I think these questions are valid. They are not massively dissimilar to some of the questions over balance that arose when Pogba was here.
No one said you need to add disclaimers!! It’s quite clear I don’t rate him, today’s game showed nothing we don’t already know - the new midfield should not include Baleba.
I'm not going to try to convince you beyond this post. We need two mids. A passer/controller and someone that covers ground like Baleba, he's a decent tackler, and a surprisingly good dribbler and adept at escaping pressure - with a strong physique. He's not had the best of seasons, but he's young and his head's seemingly at United. If we get the passer/controller we need, with Mainoo also returning to his best, someone with Baleba's attributes is a must, and they would have less pressure whilst acclimatising
You have a squad and Mainoo is part of it along with multiple other midfielders. The complaints from the fans earlier in the season was because that Amorim would not play Mainoo at all because of how limited his system and ideas were. Mainoo probably shouldn't be starting every game but should be a really useful member of a good United squad. Whether I'd want to add someone like Baleba, who has been mostly dreadful this season and who also has multiple clear flaws, I'm not so sure unless it was a very cut price deal
I think Baleba will be the first signing this summer. Others such as Anderson / Tonali will be harder to land.
I can see Baleba being a squad man for us but I hope we can aim higher than Carlos for both of the two central midfield positions that need to be filled...and I'm not even counting on anyone buying Ugarte given his wages.
I think we will probably move to a 4-3-3 when Bruno packs it in. Then I think Mainoo is perfect for that formation. In the meantime yeah I do agree with you but he's still developing. I think his passing can and should improve a lot over the next season or two. He's just getting his confidence back too. He's clearly a very gifted player
Very likely. The club tried to sign him last summer and in January and he's not involved in the world cup.
There’s having a squad and there’s this continued conversation of how player x will work with Mainoo in a partnership. The reality is, if we are building a midfield 3 from scratch and looking at ingredients - assuming Bruno gets in as one of them, what qualities of Mainoo’s would really justify him being one of the other two? Not the passing, the running, the goals. He’s talented and good at a lot of things, but I’m not sure there is a net positive as such.
And this isn’t about Baleba. If you think he has had a poor season then fine, but even Tchouameni has had many question marks in his own thread. The problem is, most traditional DMs are not seen as suitable because they either don’t pass like Kroos or run like Kante. If we are being ruthlessly honest, it would be far easier to just have a partnership without Mainoo. Of course, he can be in a squad, but many fans seem to be discussing from the perspective of finding the right partner for him.
Probably.
That being said, Mainoo has changed alot in a short time span. While I shared this concern earlier, I’m not so sure anymore.
I also think the «ideal» midfielder is basically gone. It struck me when someone mentioned Hayden Hackney. You dont see many midfielders with stats like that in the PL any more.
- I think Mainoo can continue to develop, adjust and adapt.
- I think Baleba can decelop, adjust and adapt
And I think Carrick or the next coach will have to set up the team in a manner that get the best out of them. The most important attribute for a midfield partner for Mainoo is probably pace.
Romano saying we’re going to have a very big summer this evening with players being offloaded and UCL football, let’s hope Baleba is wrapped up quickly and we can move onto others.
The ideal midfielder definitely doesn’t exist if the mandate is to cover the weaknesses of Mainoo. You can’t do that in one midfielder.
But I agree, Mainoo can improve, and has done so lately. He has a role to play here, but as a regular - we need to answer the question of whether what we are sacrificing is worth what we are getting.
Completely different as Fernandes reminds me of the period in Pirlo’s career where he was moved from a 10 to a deep lying playmaker who sat in front of the defence dictating whilst Baleba is a high stamina ball winner so in theory would compliment each other very well.
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That sounds like a great duo, and also Mainoo would fit with both too. I’d be delighted with that.
I think we have clearly backed Mainoo as the future, with all that went on and the new contract. So for me, it's a shit or get off the pot moment. Baleba will work with lots of different midfielders, so Mainoo should be given the responsibility and opportunity to be one. If he doesn't do enough, we'll bring someone in or promote someone who will.
Isn't Fernandes an 8 who can defend? Our primary midfield signing has to be with Kobie in mind, we need someone that compliments him so a player that excels physically will do that. After that we then sign someone who can play both 6 and 8 for depth.
Fernandes is the guy you buy to compete with Mainoo but I wouldn't spend £70 - £80m on competition for the latter given what we need elsewhere.
This is a good summary.
I'm comfortable with Mainoo just being one of our midfield options. And I see fans saying that's fine, but in reality he has a massive cult who will be very unhappy if he started next season on the bench for example.
I think Tchouameni is in a different category to Baleba, he can actually pass forward, he's just not Kroos as you said.
I also think it's different from Pogba situation. Pogba had different weaknesses in his ball retention, decision making, game intelligence and defensive awareness were not suited to a deep midfield role despite having the passing ability that we needed there. He really needed to be shoved higher up the pitch but once Bruno came in that option disappeared too. Mainoo on the other hand excels in the ball retention and game intelligence but doesn't have the passing.
I’d still want a third midfielder brought in too so maybe Bouaddi who looks to be potentially great all round but would accept a squad role for us, that would give us four midfielders including Mainoo that all offer something different but all compliment each other too although none offer Casemiro’s aerial ability or goal threat.
I’d love to see it, but I can’t. The only way I can see it working is if Bruno goes. Mainoo does not work as one of the first two midfielders for me, but he can work as the third. The first two midfielders have physical and passing requirements that he doesn’t really have. It is almost identical to Pogba - who was a fair bit more gifted.
If Mainoo wants to be one of the first two mids, there’s either a degree of workload and ground coverage he needs to offer, or game controlling ability. Even Pogba couldn’t do that. He has only ever blossomed with two other midfielders behind/adjacent who excelled at these things. If we ultimately decided that even Pogba’s talents didn’t serve a winning team then I’m not optimistic on Mainoo if I’m being honest. He can’t run back quickly enough, and we will need to decide if neat and tidy is enough to compensate, or whether we can also get neat and tidy elsewhere without sacrificing the running ability.
Someone like a prime Matic, or Carrick would be a good partner for Mainoo. Someone with defensive ability of a #6, and decent passing range. Its a rare profile, but not unfindable.
Mainoo is a 6/8 hybrid, so you can pair him with both a #6 and a #8 depending on the kind of game. When we are playing 2 games a week, there is no fixed 11. We needed Fletcher, Carrick, Scholes, Anderson all of them, all different profiles for example.
Last summer they wanted “Caicedo money”We balked at those prices last summer. We'd be idiots not to press that home. ~50m or thereabouts would be a great deal though
Yes 50 or thereabouts is a great deal, for US.
That’s just not how these things play out though.
You would need someone who can cover a lot of ground and is very athletic next to him.
I have tried - as many of my posts on here on the subject will testify. It is indeed a stupidly rare profile at the moment.
The only ones at a really high level who could be in any way feasible are Tchouameni, and Locatelli (who is probably too old for Ineos). Anderson also just about makes it in to the equation; I think he just about scrapes over the threshold required for defensive ability, and then on the plus side has a really good passing range.
Beyond those three, basically everyone else has some major question marks, or further elements of compromise. In most cases you get the defensive ability of a #6 but missing the passing range (a la Baleba, Scott), or the passing range but not the defensive ability (a la Bruno G, Wharton).
Think Brighton have lost alot of the bargaining power now.
Having a player who wanted to leave last summer, ends up having a below standard season compared to last.
But having said that, the only trump card they have is that if Baleba goes on strike or decides to play awfully bad in retaliation, the club are only paying him 16k a week. It's not really going to break the bank to call his bluff and drop him permanently to make an example.
Mateus Fernandes?
Fully agree on Tchouameni as he’s far better on the ball than some give him credit for and probably the closest thing to a like for like Casemiro replacement out there in terms of physicality, ball winning but passing also has high stamina and a great fitness record too so I’m all in for Tchouameni
Tchouameni is also a decent header. Ability we are going to miss after Casemiro is gone. But i still can't see why Real would be ready to sell him. Has there even been any serious rumours about his potential transfer?
I don’t watch a lot of Real these days but from what I gather Perez wants more flair and creativity over being workmen like, Vinicius and Mbappe aside there’s no galatico style players at Real which is probably why they’re being heavily linked with Enzo and Rodri which in turn makes moves for Tchouameni and Camavinga very likely.
Next season we will have a minimum of 48 games (that’s if we lose both domestic cups in the first leg and don’t qualify for CL playoffs) and a maximum of over 60 if we do well in cups and CL. There will be plenty of game time for all of them
Because they are aiming for Rodri in the summer
They are being linked with Rodri and Enzo because they need a replacement for kroos/modric. Someone who can provide control in the centre of midfield.
Perez doesn't want galacticos he's got enough issues with dressing room arguments and Mbappe being disrespectful to Madrid at staff and. being disliked by team mates for being unprofessional. He flew off to holiday in Italy while he was "injured" and it's gone down like a lead balloon in Madrid.
He's got a contract standoff with Vini. Who's on £20mil a year in wages and wants £30mil a year for a renewal.
Perez doesnt give two cents about style, flair or any of that. All he cares about are winning trophies, how they are winning doesn't matter either. That why he's entertaining the idea of mourinho. Get a grip of the dressing room and win either the league or CL, no matter how bad the one field football will be to the eye.
if we want to play high press, high line football, first of all, we need the players at least some that can cover the vast areas that be vacated. Baleba be that one, a fast CB is another with Fullbacks. The main DM is the focal point of purchase right now as i was saying before because of Mainoo. Baleba and Tchouameni (if there is any leg at all) is the standout candidates to fill that. Then we can look for a all-rounder that can come in and compete/back up with the new DM and Mainoo. Scott, M. Fernandez, or J. Gomes are all names that looks a good composite of the MF.
I just dont think there is any room for a passer (unless they have the athleticism like names above but looking through all most all of them are not what we can have re our situation now. Moreover, i think PL as a whole just play more with speed and end to end, rarely no one can control like 3-5yrs ago.
I just dont think there is any room for a passer (unless they have the athleticism like names above but looking through all most all of them are not what we can have re our situation now. Moreover, i think PL as a whole just play more with speed and end to end, rarely no one can control like 3-5yrs ago.
The way he covers the ground if fantastic, reminds me of the impact Dorgu has - suddenly the pitch looks smaller and gaps between players close.
This is a fantasting trait but also changes the way we play, like somebody mentioned if we invest in dynamic fullback we can become a good pressing side and the midfield is much tighther. We will definitely miss Casemiro passing/decision making in the middle, there's no escaping that unless we get Anderson.
This is a fantasting trait but also changes the way we play, like somebody mentioned if we invest in dynamic fullback we can become a good pressing side and the midfield is much tighther. We will definitely miss Casemiro passing/decision making in the middle, there's no escaping that unless we get Anderson.
Really ?
The real problem is Kobbie.
You think Kobbie can’t run (most distance covered again yesterday) or pass (most successful passes out of all United players yesterday) well enough ?
His close control and ability to play one touch football (passing) under pressure on the edge of his own box, middle of the park or especially in and around the oppositions box is brilliant.
He’s covering more distance than any other player in most matches he’s played under Carrick and playing as part of a double pivot with Cass who has no legs but elite positional awareness.
Maybe I’ve read your post wrong bud but Kobbie is not the problem at man united as your post claims.
Fernandes is good at ground duels, and could help to stop counter attacks, but he's not very good at box defending in the way you'd want from an out and out 6 - he's lacking in blocks, clearances, headers etc.
In addition to them seemingly wanting either Rodri or a more creative midfielder, they have Chema Andres ready to come back who can perform a similar role to Tchouameni.
This is an excellent post, I've been saying the same thing, it's an unpopular thing to state as it's an uncomfortable truth for most of the caf.
The other thing with mentioning is that, even with Casemiro doing superhuman amounts of defensive work and being almost solely responsible for trying to progress the ball, we're playing like underdogs against most opposition, and Mainoo's performances have been better when we've had our lowest shares of possession. So it's fine to bring in this unicorn midfielder as a direct Casemiro replacement if we're planning to stick with the low-block-and-vibes approach, but not if we have any ambitions of controlling matches.
I'd be delighted if we can bring in Baleba as one of our midfield signings, he's got the legs, the carrying ability, can retain possession, and seemingly wants to be here too.