Carragher article in The Telegraph

Leif GW

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Guardiola simply is the better manager these days. It is what it is. But I'll concede that we lack a lot of firepower up front compared to Man City. We need to get a couple of proper wingers and a good passing midfielder who's also mobile to complement with Matic and Pogba.
 

Mozza

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Carragher making a common mistake, players in a team doing well doesn't necessarily mean they have improved
 

Jim Beam

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You can "blame" Mourinho for having the current squad though. Blame isn't really the correct word but Mourinho made choices that created a squad that he struggles to make his. And I don't really follow your time argument they joined their current teams at the same time, Mourinho even had the luxury of being out of job and able to analyze his future squad.

Also I don't think he is wrong, the problem with our team isn't that we have bad players, it's that they don't correspond to Mourinho, they are not made to play his football.
Pep agreed on City job long before and had a luxury of the club buying some of his players long before he joined. One of them being De Bruyne for certainly, arguably even Sterling.
 

JPRouve

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Pep agreed on City job long before and had a luxury of the club buying some of his players long before he joined. One of them being De Bruyne for certainly, arguably even Sterling.
You just made that one up, the only thing you can say is that the DOF knows him and that's about it.
 

Greck

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Pep agreed on City job long before and had a luxury of the club buying some of his players long before he joined. One of them being De Bruyne for certainly, arguably even Sterling.
Keep reading Pep requested KDB and Sterling before joining. True or speculation rubbish?
 

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You just made that one up, the only thing you can say is that the DOF knows him and that's about it.
It's obvious that Guardiola would've been having a say on citeh's recruitment the moment he knew he was coming - he's good friends with the 2 DOF, who were brought in because of him, it wasn't a coincidence.

Mourinho has inherited a squad filled with 2nd rate possession players signed by LvG and leftovers from Moyes and SAF.

Guardiola's job has been significantly more easy, and he's spent about a hundred million more!
 

Jim Beam

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You just made that one up, the only thing you can say is that the DOF knows him and that's about it.
He was in line for that job, announced as City manager that season and they've been waiting for him from Barcelona job (4 years to be more precise).

You don't think he made plans and was looking over the shoulder for the job that was waiting for him. Even if that was DOF signing, Pep was well aware of it and it was a player that fits his way of playing. I'm not making anything up, it's common sense.

The real difference isn't that the managers joined or didn't join their current teams at the same time what you were arguing. It's the fact that City was waiting and planning for Pep arrival long before.
 
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JPRouve

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It's obvious that Guardiola would've been having a say on citeh's recruitment the moment he knew he was coming - he's good friends with the 2 DOF, who were brought in because of him, it wasn't a coincidence.

Mourinho has inherited a squad filled with 2nd rate possession players signed by LvG and leftovers from Moyes and SAF.

Guardiola's job has been significantly more easy, and he's spent about a hundred million more!
Yeah that's still bullshit. Conveniently people mention Sterling and De Bruyne but not Otamendi, Delph, Roberts and others. The reality is that City like every other clubs in the world try to buy good players, De Bruyne and Sterling are among them and it has nothing to do with Guardiola.
 

United!!

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The names in bold are ridiculous claim. Rashford had scored 8 goals in his half season under LVG as a striker. Now he's playing as a wide forward and scored 9 and assisted 8 in half a season so far. Herrera won POTY under Mourinho, while he was a bench player under LVG. Smalling is having a good current season so far and Mata form has been the same since he joined under Moyes. Pogba is on the same form as Juve. He has always been the kind of player to score 9-10 goals and assist about 11-12 through the season and he's doing this so far. Revise his numbers in Juve before talking. Lukaku is having a regular season and on the march of scoring his usual 25 goals. Zlatan scored 28 goals in his first season in EPL which was impressive and mentioning Bailly is a real joke really. Lindelof was normal to take time to settle in the league and his form has been raising these last few matches.

Only Martial from your list is the arguable one as his season under LVG was better, but even currently he's on 8 goals and 8 assists in a half of a season so this point doesn't stand as strong as it was last season. I won't give Blind a shot as he was always a mediocre overrated player.

I said it previously and I'll say it again. Those who believe we had a great squad with its only problem is the manager are up to a big disappointment when Mourinho leaves and the next manager comes with exactly similar problems present. Those are the same people who thought the problem was 100% in Moyes alone, so got disappointed under LVG and thought he was the problem alone 100%, so now are disappointed under Mourinho, and will be disappointed again under the next manager and so on.

We had a good squad, with some very good names but obviously we have problems in the players in the forward line. We have 2 good talents who are normally inconsistent in this age so their form is always up and down, and no good senior players to depend on in the attack and to relieve pressure from the youngsters. Only solution for this is to either wait till Martial and Rashford grow up some more years and acquire enough level of consistency or go on and buy some already elite players in the attack from now till both develop.

I will disagree with you. You can't compare the Rashford's performance with LVG than with Jose. You can compare numbers, but not performance. LVG handed Rashford his first few games and the impact was incredible. He looked to be a world top class in almost no time and that thought has been fading away as time with Jose went on. Herrera might have been fine last year, but this year he is not good at all and every game looks worse. Smalling and Mata are debatable.

I think Mata was better suited and performed better under LVG. Adding Pogba and Mhki next to him, he should be doing even better. Pogba is not at all the one he was at Juve. You must have not watched Juventus at all. Incredible box to box and at United he hasn't found his position and the company to move the ball that he had at Juve. Lukaku's numbers hide the fact he played at Everton last year. He should have at least 30-40% more goals this year at United. Bailly and Lindelof are debatable, but same as Lukaku, Villareal and Benfica were much lesser teams and they were incredible players there. You would expect them to shine more than what they had at United.

And Zlatan, well I don't know what to say. I know he had an injury but if you tell me that he has been better at United than what he was at Milan or PSG you must have not follow the leagues. Zlatan was the best player in the league the year before coming and has not had a great impact here. When he is in the pitch, I feel like he can't connect with the rest of the team. It is like the entire team is disjointed and that hurt his game a lot.
 
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Jim Beam

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Keep reading Pep requested KDB and Sterling before joining. True or speculation rubbish?
Look, nobody knows for sure, but it's common sense that he had saying in such transfers especially considering his relationship with City board and going into the job so close from those transfers.

I'm not discrediting his job as City manager. My opinion is he made a great job there, but he had an advantage because of better planning from City and clearer vision where the club wants to be while we made a mess during that same period.
 

Greck

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It's obvious that Guardiola would've been having a say on citeh's recruitment the moment he knew he was coming - he's good friends with the 2 DOF, who were brought in because of him, it wasn't a coincidence.

Mourinho has inherited a squad filled with 2nd rate possession players signed by LvG and leftovers from Moyes and SAF.

Guardiola's job has been significantly more easy, and he's spent about a hundred million more!
this works in favour and against him if we're to compare his stay to Mourinho's. On one hand Mou didn't have the benefit of having a predecessor help build his team before he even stepped foot in the club. Quite the opposite infact thanks to LVG. On the other hand, we can't say he lucked into a better team to discredit him when it was his recruitment of those players that helped make them that way. Was great foresight to see those two would reach this level
 
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Infordin

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Let’s be real here, back in 2015/16 a combined XI of City and United would have looked something like this:

Martial - Aguero - De Bruyne
Silva - Fernandinho - Herrera
Shaw - Smalling - Kompany - Valencia
De Gea​

That’s 6 United players and 5 City players. Shaw was the only debatable pick since he had just came off a leg injury, but City were so poor in the fullback areas so he still gets picked. I would even have Darmian over Kolarov and Clichy. Players like Sterling, Otamendi, Delph and even Fernandinho were not considered anywhere near as good as they are now. Martial was considered a future Ballon D’Or winner and rated much higher than Sterling.

City and United finished level on 66 points that season, with City ahead only on goal difference.

People can revise history as much as they want, talk about how much harder Mourinho’s job has been and how great City’s team was in 2015/16, but that just isn’t true.
 

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I agree with most of what he is saying to be honest. Mourinho has improved a few players though I would say. Guardiola has his improved his attackers the most whereas Mourinho has improved his defenders the most, which is natural given our styles of play.
Has he?
 

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Carragher is spot on.

It is frustrating seeing how many United supporters think the difference between the two sides is down to mere spending. I'm not concerned about the current points gap as much as I am about the fact that most of our players are stagnating in an immobile system of play. We don't look like a fortress. Neither do we look like a consistently great counter attacking side. I'd be more sympathetic with Jose if he seemed to be maxing out the performance of the current players.
 

Rhyme Animal

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Oh yes.

Jones
Smalling
Valencia
Young

Are all better under José - the mistake he's made imo though, is ditching the back 3. When that was starting to gel, we were looking really nice at the back (@SteveJ pun incoming...), but since he ditched it, we've lost a lot of that.

But in terms of their performances, all those players look better under José.

People would well to actually remember that last season under LvG - going out of CL, how boring it was to watch.

José's doing a good job. Needs to get back to 352 fecking asap imo, but he's rebuilding a European giant and winning trophies while doing so.
 

Kevin

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Let’s be real here, back in 2015/16 a combined XI of City and United would have looked something like this:

Martial - Aguero - De Bruyne
Silva - Fernandinho - Herrera
Shaw - Smalling - Kompany - Valencia
De Gea​

That’s 6 United players and 5 City players. Shaw was the only debatable pick since he had just came off a leg injury, but City were so poor in the fullback areas so he still gets picked. I would even have Darmian over Kolarov and Clichy. Players like Sterling, Otamendi, Delph and even Fernandinho were not considered anywhere near as good as they are now. Martial was considered a future Ballon D’Or winner and rated much higher than Sterling.

City and United finished level on 66 points that season, with City ahead only on goal difference.

People can revise history as much as they want, talk about how much harder Mourinho’s job has been and how great City’s team was in 2015/16, but that just isn’t true.
Pep is very good indeed. And it's our turn to become Liverpool and have a barren period. Let's hope it isn't as long and desolate as theirs.
 

adexkola

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Oh yes.

Jones
Smalling
Valencia
Young

Are all better under José - the mistake he's made imo though, is ditching the back 3. When that was starting to gel, we were looking really nice at the back (@SteveJ pun incoming...), but since he ditched it, we've lost a lot of that.

But in terms of their performances, all those players look better under José.

People would well to actually remember that last season under LvG - going out of CL, how boring it was to watch.

José's doing a good job. Needs to get back to 352 fecking asap imo, but he's rebuilding a European giant and winning trophies while doing so.
Good point regarding the defense... Our last few games are a bit worrying though in that regard.
 

Jim Beam

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Just read that whole article and I really don't agree with many of those things. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and seeing City playing great it's easy (and stupid at the same time) to come out with such claims that he would be first with United squad. At the start of the season, it was clear that United has a big problem with width and a RW or proper number 10 who could make a difference with his individual brilliance.

City's only problem was coming down to having the same defence which could cost them like last season. To Pep's credit, he solved that problem with a help of his system, while we still struggle in attacking phase of the game, when talking about where we want to be as a top team.

I blame Jose only for bringing this money card on the table and giving ammunition to the press. He made enough progress to just point at results or where United was in last few years and solve the money issue with the board alone.
 

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Let’s be real here, back in 2015/16 a combined XI of City and United would have looked something like this:

Martial - Aguero - De Bruyne
Silva - Fernandinho - Herrera
Shaw
- Smalling - Kompany - Valencia
De Gea​

That’s 6 United players and 5 City players. Shaw was the only debatable pick since he had just came off a leg injury, but City were so poor in the fullback areas so he still gets picked. I would even have Darmian over Kolarov and Clichy. Players like Sterling, Otamendi, Delph and even Fernandinho were not considered anywhere near as good as they are now. Martial was considered a future Ballon D’Or winner and rated much higher than Sterling.

City and United finished level on 66 points that season, with City ahead only on goal difference.

People can revise history as much as they want, talk about how much harder Mourinho’s job has been and how great City’s team was in 2015/16, but that just isn’t true.
Herrera was a bench player and Shaw was injured the whole season, so not so sure tbh.

Also that bold part again. City reached the semi-final of CL this season, beating PSG and losing to the champions of this year ( Real Madrid ) 1-0 in two legs by an own goal, meanwhile, we got eliminated from an easy group and got eliminated later in the Europe League against Liverpool.
 

JPRouve

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Herrera was a bench player and Shaw was injured the whole season, so not so sure tbh.

Also that bold part again. City reached the semi-final of CL this season, beating PSG and losing to the champions of this year ( Real Madrid ) 1-0 in two legs by an own goal, meanwhile, we got eliminated from an easy group and got eliminated later in the Europe League against Liverpool.
A PSG without most key players.
 

el3mel

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I will disagree with you. You can't compare the Rashford's performance with LVG than with Jose. You can compare numbers, but not performance. LVG handed Rashford his first few games and the impact was incredible. He looked to be a world top class in almost no time and that thought has been fading away as time with Jose went on. Herrera might have been fine last year, but this year he is not good at all and every game looks worse. Smalling and Mata are debatable.
Or on the contrary, Rashford and Martial were the only bright spots in that shite teams at the moment that we only looked up to their performance because of the dross served next to them. With addition of other very good players as Pogba, Zlatan ..etc they're no more the main bright spot of the team and it's obvious you won't see their performance as they were in a shite team as LVG's one. Numbers are speaking and Rashford this season had 9 goals and 8 assists in the first half of the season despite playing wide forward all the time, while under LVG season he was playing as the main striker all the time, so how didn't he improve ? We can say Martial didn't improve but I'm sure as hell Rashford improved a lot from LVG season to the one he's currently, albeit becoming more selfish now.

So you're discarding Herrera's last season and taking the current only to to support your claim ? Herrera was a bench player under LVG. He wasn't playing much and always got benched for the slightest mistake. Mourinho is the one who saved his career here and gave him an important role last season.

I think Mata was better suited and performed better under LVG. Adding Pogba and Mhki next to him, he should be doing even better. Pogba is not at all the one he was at Juve. You must have not watched Juventus at all. Incredible box to box and at United he hasn't found his position and the company to move the ball that he had at Juve. Lukaku's numbers hide the fact he played at Everton last year. He should have at least 30-40% more goals this year at United. Bailly and Lindelof are debatable, but same as Lukaku, Villareal and Benfica were much lesser teams and they were incredible players there. You would expect them to shine more than what they had at United.
What did Mata do exactly under LVG that he didn't under Mourinho in this one and half season ? Your problem is you're speaking as if he was scoring 20 goals under LVG and suddenly only scoring 5 or 6. Mata scored 10 goals in all his seasons here, in both LVG's seasons and Mourinho last one, so he's providing his usual numbers we used to see. His start to the campaign last season was great as well.

Pogba role in the team this season is immense and has been a key player in our system and we struggled massively in building our attack without him so I'm not so sure. Considering he has taken a different role to suit United system than Juve's, as in Juve he was a LCM in a 3 men midfield but here he's mostly an attacking CM in a 2 men midfield with more responsibilities, and considering the EPL is actually harder and more demanding for the midfielders than Serie A, he has been doing absolutely fine here and again, Pogba has always been the kind of midfielder to score 9-10 goals per season and put around 11-12 assists. He's not your Lampard type of midfielder, and his numbers have been similar here to that of Juve, except he should have gotten more assists last season if we actually the thousands of chances he created for his teammates.

Your point of how improved players are proved is flawed. The pressure at United is x10 times more than at the likes of Everton and Benfica. It was normal for Lindelof to take a time to settle in EPL at a club like United more than at a club like Benfica, and it's normal for Lukaku to get a heavy pressure on him when he passes through a drought even though any one who follows EPL regularly knows Lukaku had similar periods under Everton but no one was caring because he's under zero pressure here, but Lukaku is having his regular 25 goals season, nothing more nothing less.

I don't know how you see Bailly hasn't improved from his times as Villareal.

And Zlatan, well I don't know what to say. I know he had an injury but if you tell me that he has been better at United than what he was at Milan or PSG you must have not follow the leagues. Zlatan was the best player in the league the year before coming and has not had a great impact here. When he is in the pitch, I feel like he can't connect with the rest of the team. It is like the entire team is disjointed and that hurt his game a lot.
How are you simply expecting a 35 years old striker to put a similar performance at Premier league like the one he had at Ligue 1. I told you, your point of proving the players are improved or not is totally flawed and built on a nothing logic. Scoring 28 goals in your first season in England at the age of 35 is nothing short of impressive. Zlatan was 6 goals short of equalizing Rooney's best record of goals in a season here. Now you see how flawed your logic is. If you're expecting Zlatan to put 50 goals in his first season in England like what he did in France then there's no point in dragging this any farther.
 

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A PSG without most key players.
Ok. Ignore them losing to the champions of this year with an own goal in 2 legs, and that our team in the same tournament got knocked out of the group that its best team was Wolfspurg.
 

Jim Beam

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Let’s be real here, back in 2015/16 a combined XI of City and United would have looked something like this:

Martial - Aguero - De Bruyne
Silva - Fernandinho - Herrera
Shaw - Smalling - Kompany - Valencia
De Gea​

That’s 6 United players and 5 City players. Shaw was the only debatable pick since he had just came off a leg injury, but City were so poor in the fullback areas so he still gets picked. I would even have Darmian over Kolarov and Clichy. Players like Sterling, Otamendi, Delph and even Fernandinho were not considered anywhere near as good as they are now. Martial was considered a future Ballon D’Or winner and rated much higher than Sterling.

City and United finished level on 66 points that season, with City ahead only on goal difference.

People can revise history as much as they want, talk about how much harder Mourinho’s job has been and how great City’s team was in 2015/16, but that just isn’t true.
You can't revise history.
City's finish before Pep: 4th, 2nd, 1st
United: 5th, 4th, 7th

City would never even finished 4th that last season that they haven't made a mess and said Pellegrini is gone in the middle of the season and from then on results in the league suddenly dropped (they were placed 2nd, 3 points from the top when Pellegrini announced he is going). As @el3mel said they went to the semi-final of CL. Comparing that to where we were and the fact we had to change our whole playing style is nonsensical.

You could say that Pep did a great job, I don't have any problem with that, but I'm not sure why people have to use that measure and where City team are atm as a stick to beat our team who also made evident progress.
 

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Mourinho needs to start buying up and coming talent and turning it into the finished article as what Pep is doing with Sane/Jesus as opposed to demanding 100 million every time he needs to sign a player if he wants to be taken seriously as having claims to being one of the best in the business. His purchase of Bailly was brilliant but so far he has yet to convince that he can develop the best kids and not just be a check-book manager
 

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What is more baffling is how little criticism there is of Chelsea in the media this season. Yes we're the big name that generates clicks etc but whilst the criticism of Utd like in this article has it's fair points a load of it is nonsense. This is our best season points wise for years.

Chelsea were champions last season and won the league easily. They're behind us and city now yet not a peep in the media. Their regression not worth an article from Carragher?
 
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BluesJr

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Carragher is spot on.

It is frustrating seeing how many United supporters think the difference between the two sides is down to mere spending. I'm not concerned about the current points gap as much as I am about the fact that most of our players are stagnating in an immobile system of play. We don't look like a fortress. Neither do we look like a consistently great counter attacking side. I'd be more sympathetic with Jose if he seemed to be maxing out the performance of the current players.
This is spot on. Jose simply hasn't done enough so far on the training pitch in my opinion. If his weakness is attacking, which it's generally accepted to be, why not be a professional and bring someone who can help? That's how you become successful and continue to develop.
 

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Always helps when you start of with a better squad and then spend more money than your neighbors. Plus think Jose has actually won a few trophies in his one season at United. Not taking anything away from Pep but keep to the facts.
 

parkthebuslads

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I agreed with it. Jose needs to look in the mirror and see that he's making this job harder than it needs to be with his attitude.
 

El Jefe

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I think its a silly question to ask what would Pep do with our current squad. Its obvious that he would not have spent the £300m or so that Jose has spent in the same way. In saying that I do believe Pep would have spent the money better in getting the team to where he wants it. Mourinho looks like he's still far away from having his ideal team.

Players like Lukaku, Young, Valencia and Fellaini are crucial to his attacking setup and more gifted players are seen as less important. Under Pep only Valencia would still be at this club and the more talented players would thrive much better.
 

United!!

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Or on the contrary, Rashford and Martial were the only bright spots in that shite teams at the moment that we only looked up to their performance because of the dross served next to them. With addition of other very good players as Pogba, Zlatan ..etc they're no more the main bright spot of the team and it's obvious you won't see their performance as they were in a shite team as LVG's one. Numbers are speaking and Rashford this season had 9 goals and 8 assists in the first half of the season despite playing wide forward all the time, while under LVG season he was playing as the main striker all the time, so how didn't he improve ? We can say Martial didn't improve but I'm sure as hell Rashford improved a lot from LVG season to the one he's currently, albeit becoming more selfish now.

So you're discarding Herrera's last season and taking the current only to to support your claim ? Herrera was a bench player under LVG. He wasn't playing much and always got benched for the slightest mistake. Mourinho is the one who saved his career here and gave him an important role last season.



What did Mata do exactly under LVG that he didn't under Mourinho in this one and half season ? Your problem is you're speaking as if he was scoring 20 goals under LVG and suddenly only scoring 5 or 6. Mata scored 10 goals in all his seasons here, in both LVG's seasons and Mourinho last one, so he's providing his usual numbers we used to see. His start to the campaign last season was great as well.

Pogba role in the team this season is immense and has been a key player in our system and we struggled massively in building our attack without him so I'm not so sure. Considering he has taken a different role to suit United system than Juve's, as in Juve he was a LCM in a 3 men midfield but here he's mostly an attacking CM in a 2 men midfield with more responsibilities, and considering the EPL is actually harder and more demanding for the midfielders than Serie A, he has been doing absolutely fine here and again, Pogba has always been the kind of midfielder to score 9-10 goals per season and put around 11-12 assists. He's not your Lampard type of midfielder, and his numbers have been similar here to that of Juve, except he should have gotten more assists last season if we actually the thousands of chances he created for his teammates.

Your point of how improved players are proved is flawed. The pressure at United is x10 times more than at the likes of Everton and Benfica. It was normal for Lindelof to take a time to settle in EPL at a club like United more than at a club like Benfica, and it's normal for Lukaku to get a heavy pressure on him when he passes through a drought even though any one who follows EPL regularly knows Lukaku had similar periods under Everton but no one was caring because he's under zero pressure here, but Lukaku is having his regular 25 goals season, nothing more nothing less.

I don't know how you see Bailly hasn't improved from his times as Villareal.



How are you simply expecting a 35 years old striker to put a similar performance at Premier league like the one he had at Ligue 1. I told you, your point of proving the players are improved or not is totally flawed and built on a nothing logic. Scoring 28 goals in your first season in England at the age of 35 is nothing short of impressive. Zlatan was 6 goals short of equalizing Rooney's best record of goals in a season here. Now you see how flawed your logic is. If you're expecting Zlatan to put 50 goals in his first season in England like what he did in France then there's no point in dragging this any farther.

Well if Jose has done so well with these players, I would like to get your opinion on the improvement of players like Coutinho, Salah and Alonso who came from the Italian league or Firminho from the German league. Or players like Otamendi, Delph, Fernandinho, Stones or even players like Silva and De Bruyne who were great players and now look like best in the world in their position. Or the City strikers Sane and Jesus coming from other smaller leagues and scoring a lot of goals in the mighty premier league. Or Sterling, who is playing great and scoring lots of goals and who I really don't think is more talented then Martial or Rashford. I would love to know what Guardiola or Klopp can do with the amazing talent of the United current squad.

United has two of the best young talents in the world in Martial and Rashford. Mata, the best player of Chelsea's title winning team a few years ago and still under 30. Lukaku, 25 goals with Everton last year. Mhki and Zlatan, best players in the french and german leagues before united and Pogba, amazing talent, finalist in the CL and probably the best young product in Italy before United. Amazing attacking force but United cannot put three passes together in the rival's half. But that is ok. Just keep blaming the players after every game just like Jose. Or the board for not buying even better players. I am having a lot of fun with that actually.
 
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Theonas

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Carragher making a common mistake, players in a team doing well doesn't necessarily mean they have improved
That's a good point. I think they usually overlap and maybe people express each of those two things in the same way. It is usually easier to play for a well functioning tactical setup, especially when said setup is about playing on the front foot and having possession of the ball, since most footballers actually like to have a football at their feet. Look at the likes of Busquets for example and his performances under Guardiola and after him. The likes of Fernandinho, Otamendi, Stones, Walker, Delph and even De Bruyne and Silva are certainly benefiting from his coaching but also from all the movement and action around them which you can attribute to coaching too but not from an individual standpoint.
 

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I think its a silly question to ask what would Pep do with our current squad. Its obvious that he would not have spent the £300m or so that Jose has spent in the same way. In saying that I do believe Pep would have spent the money better in getting the team to where he wants it. Mourinho looks like he's still far away from having his ideal team.

Players like Lukaku, Young, Valencia and Fellaini are crucial to his attacking setup and more gifted players are seen as less important. Under Pep only Valencia would still be at this club and the more talented players would thrive much better.
I am not sure Guardiola even has as much of a control on transfers as any Manchester United manager does. He always gives the impression that he leaves all of that to his board or DoF. Obviously he gives names and has to approve every recruitment but it is not the same way we allow our managers to work. What Guardiola benefits from though is that at Barcelona, Bayern and now City, everyone in the club has the same vision for how they want to play making that selection of targets more precise and fitting.
 
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Theonas

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Always helps when you start of with a better squad and then spend more money than your neighbors. Plus think Jose has actually won a few trophies in his one season at United. Not taking anything away from Pep but keep to the facts.
That's not a fact, it is an opinion. The article addresses this very opinion and does quite a good job at it. Mkhitaryan was player of the year in a major European league. Pogba is a major league winner, a Euro finalist and a CL finalist. Mata is a WC winner. Matic, Valencia, Young, Smalling, Jones, De Gea, Carrick are PL winners. Lukaku is the highest goalscorer in the history of the Belgium national team. That is not a squad of players that can ever be considered lower than anyone in the league from an individual standpoint. If it is, we have to find a criteria that is not players performances and achievements throughout their career to judge them by.

As for the other fact about winning trophies, do you happen to think Wenger and LvG also did a better job because they won an FA Cup? The former won 3 of the past 4. Surely you also know that City did not even compete for one of the trophies we won. I, like any fan, think there is nothing better than a Cup final but the thrill and glory of it should never be mistaken as an indicator of quality.
 

Jim Beam

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I am not Guardiola even has as much of a control on transfers as any Manchester United manager does. He always gives the impression that he leaves all of that to his board or DoF. Obviously he gives names and has to approve every recruitment but it is not the same way we allow our managers to work. What Guardiola benefits from though is that at Barcelona, Bayern and now City, everyone in the club has the same vision for how they want to play making that selection of targets more precise and fitting.
And people underestimate these things. Having clear vision and direction in a world where everyone now can pay 100million+ for a player can make a world of difference.

Pep was sealed from City 3 years before he joined. Jose had a pre-contract signed with United which consisted penalty clause in case we back off from it or in other words if LVG manages to lift the results by the end of the season. Which club has thinking in advance advantage? This kind of things do seem small but indicate how detailed their business and planning is. And if do not take it in the same manner, we may end up a few years from now, asking ourselves the very same questions we do today. They not only have money, they very well know how to run this business.
 

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Well if Jose has done so well with these players, I would like to get your opinion on the improvement of players like Coutinho, Salah and Alonso who came from the Italian league or Firminho from the German league. Or players like Otamendi, Delph, Fernandinho, Stones or even players like Silva and De Bruyne who were great players and now look like best in the world in their position. Or the City strikers Sane and Jesus coming from other smaller leagues and scoring a lot of goals in the mighty premier league. Or Sterling, who is playing great and scoring lots of goals and who I really don't think is more talented then Martial or Rashford. I would love to know what Guardiola or Klopp can do with the amazing talent of the United current squad.

United has two of the best young talents in the world in Martial and Rashford. Mata, the best player of Chelsea's title winning team a few years ago and still under 30. Lukaku, 25 goals with Everton last year. Mhki and Zlatan, best players in the french and german leagues before united and Pogba, amazing talent, finalist in the CL and probably the best young product in Italy before United. Amazing attacking force but United cannot put three passes together in the rival's half. But that is ok. Just keep blaming the players after every game just like Jose. Or the board for not buying even better players. I am having a lot of fun with that actually.
Amazes me how you somehow bring Liverpool in this while they are setting already behind us by 5 points and and their only objective this season is to secure 4th position like last season as well. I can understand talking about City due to their strong position in the league but Liverpool ?!

No, let's arrange our attack in its best perspective, 2 inconsistent youngsters normally due to their age, a flop from Bundasliga who has been given thousands of chances in different positions and still pretty inconsistent, Mata who is past his peak by years a 36 years old Zlatan that has just returned from ACL tear injury, then Lukaku and Pogba. See it's easy.

We have a good team, no one said otherwise, or we wouldn't have been second in table for that long, but we have obvious flaws in our attack because our senior players aren't that good leading to us overly dependent on our 2 inconsistent youngsters. If you believe we had a great team and our attacking players are great and just missing a manager to unlock their potential, then you're clearly deluded and I have nothing to say except good luck with the massive disappointment you'll get when the next manager arrives and you see the exact same problem got repeated again. Don't forget to blame the new manager as well.
 

ghagua

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He is not too far off with his assesment. Give Pep this squad and he will have the team playing much better attacking wise and competing for the trophies.

Always been in favor of letting the manager choose his transfer targets, but after the mess with Moyes and LvG, I want to see a DOF in charge of United's transfers and long term planning, and a suitable manager to manage them. I want to see techical players with a but of grit in them instead of purchasing giants who cannot trap a ball if their lives depended on it.
 

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And people underestimate these things. Having clear vision and direction in a world where everyone now can pay 100million+ for a player can make a world of difference.

Pep was sealed from City 3 years before he joined. Jose had a pre-contract signed with United which consisted penalty clause in case we back off from it or in other words if LVG manages to lift the results by the end of the season. Which club has thinking in advance advantage? This kind of things do seem small but indicate how detailed their business and planning is. And if do not take it in the same manner, we may end up a few years from now, asking ourselves the very same questions we do today. They not only have money, they very well know how to run this business.
No argument there, it makes a gigantic difference. Fans focus way too much on the players quality instead of their profile. I think with the exception of Barcelona because of Messi, Real Madrid and maybe PSG, the other top clubs have very equal level of top quality players. Maybe some are slightly better than others but certainly not a decisive difference. Profile of players and how incorporated they are within the team becomes more of an influential factor as a consequence of this relative equality.

Having said that, Mourinho has very little if any history of having a clear vision of how he wants his teams to play. In fact that's one of the pluses about him according to his fans which is an argument not without merit. The other side of this potential advantage is he is hired almost exclusively to win trophies using every trick in the book to navigate each test. You don't hire him if you have a specific vision of how you want to play because he's never shown a particular commitment to that. So in a way, the man has already done what he came here for, he relatively stabilised us, won us a couple of trophies which whereas they do not indicate high quality, are still great memories and help the status of the club, and got us on course to reaching 80+ points in the PL. Unfortunately for him, his approach will always have a lower ceiling and will need others to not be at their best.
 

ghagua

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And people underestimate these things. Having clear vision and direction in a world where everyone now can pay 100million+ for a player can make a world of difference.

Pep was sealed from City 3 years before he joined. Jose had a pre-contract signed with United which consisted penalty clause in case we back off from it or in other words if LVG manages to lift the results by the end of the season. Which club has thinking in advance advantage? This kind of things do seem small but indicate how detailed their business and planning is. And if do not take it in the same manner, we may end up a few years from now, asking ourselves the very same questions we do today. They not only have money, they very well know how to run this business.
Absolutely this! City plan long term while we seem to be planning here and now. Was astonished we let De Bryune go to City without much of a peep from us. As much as I love to hate LvG, thank feck he had the sense to sign Martial, but then again, after reading the article where Giggs recommended both Jesus and Mbappe to LvG, but hatred for him surfaces again.