Carragher article in The Telegraph

Bastian

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"Since Ferguson retired in 2013, United have spent in greater excess than when he was there. They have paid over £600 million on new recruits under David Moyes, Louis Van Gaal and Mourinho.
This shows the biggest difference between City and United this season is nothing to do with money."

A pretty one-sided article that reads more like a piece meant to support a specific view than any neutral overview of sorts. That paragraph above indicates the lack of thought succinctly.
Enjoy Carra more than I thought I would, but daft, for sure.
 

Kush

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Same regurgitated bullshit yet again, every man and their dog knows our biggest problem isn't the money we've spent in the last 5 years. It's that the money has been spent very poorly, blame lies with all of the managers. Perhaps van Gaal more than any other.

Only thing I agree with him is that Mourinho is being more prickly than necessary and it doesn't bode well for the future.

Let’s be real here, back in 2015/16 a combined XI of City and United would have looked something like this:

Martial - Aguero - De Bruyne
Silva - Fernandinho - Herrera
Shaw - Smalling - Kompany - Valencia
De Gea​

That’s 6 United players and 5 City players. Shaw was the only debatable pick since he had just came off a leg injury, but City were so poor in the fullback areas so he still gets picked. I would even have Darmian over Kolarov and Clichy. Players like Sterling, Otamendi, Delph and even Fernandinho were not considered anywhere near as good as they are now. Martial was considered a future Ballon D’Or winner and rated much higher than Sterling.

City and United finished level on 66 points that season, with City ahead only on goal difference.

People can revise history as much as they want, talk about how much harder Mourinho’s job has been and how great City’s team was in 2015/16, but that just isn’t true.
Not the 2015/16 season again to beat us over again, City were 2nd favorites for PL even before a ball had been kicked. They made 3 big signings in de Bruyne, Sterling and Otamendi. United were 4th favorite in the same season and City made a perfect start to the PL with 5 wins out of 5. There are a variety of factors as to why City dipped that year.

1. Aguero injuries, they got rid of Dzeko and Negredo and that meant the only backup to him was Iheanacho. Aguero picked a lot of injuries that season and as a result they spunked £30m on Bony in January.
2. de Bruyne became a key player for them and did his MCL, which meant missing 3 months of football.
3. Announcement of Pep succeeding Pellergrini mid season, City were only 3 points off the top when this announcement was and their form tailed from there in.

Even with all that, once de Bruyne was back fit City made a deep run in CL. Only losing to eventual winners in Real Madrid over 2 legs due to an own goal in SFs. While for us I don't need to say anything how horrific that year was for us, we failed to get out of a group containing Basel, PSV and Wolfsburg. In Europa we lost to a Danish side no one had ever heard of and then got outclassed over 2 legs by a Liverpool side. We scored just 49 goals in PL that year, City finished level on points but take a look at their GD.

2015/16 season in itself is a bit of anomaly, especially with what Leicester achieved. Chelsea finished 10th 31 points off them, City 25 points and Liverpool 21 points adrift. Yet I don't see you making an argument for them, it was a bizarre season in general with a lot of lesser sides punching above their weights and lots of big clubs severely under performing. The respective league position of a number of clubs was not reflective of quality in the squad. 10th placed Chelsea would romp to a PL title a year later under Conte.

I doubt this will change your view tiny bit though considering your post history so continue.
 

DdeGoat

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Good article.

The starting couple of paragraphs & the last paragraph are bang on.
If Pep Guardiola was in charge of the United squad I believe they would win the title.

Rewind to the start of this season and assess the head-to-head qualities of the United and City squads. Player-for-player, which would you argue was superior?

Was Ederson considered better than David De Gea? Were City’s centre-backs Nicolas Otamendi and John Stones preferable to Eric Bailly and Phil Jones? Did United fans want Fernandinho or Nemanja Matic?

United broke the world transfer record to sign Paul Pogba, and then made Romelu Lukaku the most expensive Premier League player of last summer. Which English clubs made bigger statements of intent?

How many United or England fans would have swapped Marcus Rashford for Raheem Sterling a year ago? And when Anthony Martial first arrived from Monaco, was his reputation greater than that of Leroy Sane when he joined City?
That is what separated Sir Alex Ferguson from the rest. For all his success at United when he could bully rivals in the transfer market, it was Ferguson's latter years when Chelsea and City were capable of outspending him that impressed me most. He not only kept United competitive, but ensured they were title winners because of their brand of football. Since Ferguson retired in 2013, United have spent in greater excess than when he was there. They have paid over £600 million on new recruits under David Moyes, Louis Van Gaal and Mourinho.
Used to hate Jamie as a player but very much like him as a pundit. It's the opposite feeling with Gary Neville, loved him as a player but hate him as a pundit.
 
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lex talionis

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A train wreck of an article.

Think about it...how many of our first XI would Pep would replace his XI with? De Gea, full stop.

The better argument is the obvious: Over the last four seasons City have done much better than United have in player acquisition/purging.

Pep may or not may be the better manager -- I would give him the edge -- but there's no chance he could have made this squad into one that has gone unbeaten with only one draw this season in league play.
 

acnumber9

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Good article.

The starting couple of paragraphs & the last paragraph are bang on.




Used to hate Jamie as a player but very much like him as a pundit. It's the opposite feeling with Gary Neville, loved him as a player but hate him as a pundit.
He quite deliberately chooses players that anyone would prefer from Utd over City. Why not mention De Bruyne, Silva, Aguero or Jesus? They’re the key difference. No mention of the full backs either. It also ignores the rather key fact that Pogba has missed almost half the season for one reason or another.
 

acnumber9

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A train wreck of an article.

Think about it...how many of our first XI would Pep would replace his XI with? De Gea, full stop.

The better argument is the obvious: Over the last four seasons City have done much better than United have in player acquisition/purging.

Pep may or not may be the better manager -- I would give him the edge -- but there's no chance he could have made this squad into one that has gone unbeaten with only one draw this season in league play.
They also spent more money on a squad that finished above ours for 4 seasons in five of the last 6 seasons. He’s trying to push a narrative that doesn’t exist.
 

acnumber9

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That's not a fact, it is an opinion. The article addresses this very opinion and does quite a good job at it. Mkhitaryan was player of the year in a major European league. Pogba is a major league winner, a Euro finalist and a CL finalist. Mata is a WC winner. Matic, Valencia, Young, Smalling, Jones, De Gea, Carrick are PL winners. Lukaku is the highest goalscorer in the history of the Belgium national team. That is not a squad of players that can ever be considered lower than anyone in the league from an individual standpoint. If it is, we have to find a criteria that is not players performances and achievements throughout their career to judge them by.

As for the other fact about winning trophies, do you happen to think Wenger and LvG also did a better job because they won an FA Cup? The former won 3 of the past 4. Surely you also know that City did not even compete for one of the trophies we won. I, like any fan, think there is nothing better than a Cup final but the thrill and glory of it should never be mistaken as an indicator of quality.
What Mkhitaryan did in another league two years ago doesn’t reflect how capable he is in the Premier League, Mata winning the World Cup as a squad player with 20 minutes play time doesn’t mean a lot, Carrick hasn’t played a minute of Premier League football this season and has been ill and Lukaku’s international record means nothing if we’re comparing it against our rivals. City and Chelsea also have a number of Premier League winners and Silva was a World Cup winner as a starter, De Bruyne was player of the year in a major European league, Aguero is the 12th highest scorer in Premier League history etc.
 
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MyOnlySolskjaer

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Is it just me (probably) but when we talk about players that have stepped up under any given manager at United it is usually the same selection: Young, Valencia, Fellani, Lingard etc.

The less fashionable players but generally players who are consistent/nothing fancy
To be honest, that's what most of our squad is besides Martial, Mata and Pogba. I wouldn't trust anyone in our squad to make an accurate 25 yard pass outside of Pogba, Lindelof and Mata.
 

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What Mkhitaryan did in another league two years ago doesn’t reflect how capable he is in the Premier League, Mata winning the World Cup as a squad player doesn’t mean a lot, Carrick hasn’t played a minute of Oremier League football this season and has been ill and Lukaku’s international record means nothing if we’re comparing it against our rivals. City and Chelsea also have a number of Premier League winners and Silva was a World Cup winner as a starter, De Bruyne was player of the year in a major European league, Aguero is the 12th highest scorer in Premier League history etc.
Why exactly what Mkhitaryan did in Germany not count and De Bruyne's does? You do realise they both were player of the year in the same league, no? And why is Lukaku's record insignificant? Maybe you can tell us your criteria of what matters to see how it measures up against our rivals? As for Mata, what about the fact that he was player of the year at Chelsea twice? Is that criteria also not enough to make him be called useless?

As for your points about the City players, what exactly is your argument? It sounds like you are trying to say they have top players which as far as I can see no one tried to argue against. The point is we both have top squads, the difference if there is any, is not decisive, certainly not decisive enough to warrant a 15 pts gap. For such gap to be explained by individual quality, the difference in said individual quality would need to be gigantic, the type of gap between top clubs and mid table ones.
 

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Silva, Sterling, Sane, KDB, Aguero is like cheating. They don't even need a class keeper or backline.

They simply need defenders to be good on the ball.

He makes some good points but let's be realistic - city's attack is insanely good and Pep inherited immense attackers and added a few too. It comes down to money mostly.
 

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I am not too sure about Mourinho improving your defense as a system this season. You are still conceding way too many shots.
These are the shots conceded per game by the Top 6 so far this season. Yours is almost double that of City and comfortable worse in the Top 6.

City: 6.1
Liverpool 7.6
United: 11.8
Chelsea: 9.8
Arsenal: 9.7
Spurs: 9.2

The key difference for United has been DDG. He has made 70 saves (2nd highest in the league) and conceded 16 goals. Contrast this to someone like Mignolet with 33 saves (2nd lowest in the league) and 23 goals conceded.

Even if you compare against last few seasons, you will have to go back to the Moyes season for worse performance.

16-17: 9.5
15-16: 10.8
14-15: 10.1
13-14: 11.9

Now, I know this is just one stat which cannot capture the entire picture. But still, I feel for a good defensive unit, limiting the number of shots conceded is quite important.
 

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It's a spot on article. It's exhausting supporting a Mourinho team, the bloke keeps on starting a fight when there's none.
This is the main gripe I have with him. Yes the quality of football could be better but if he would start being more positive then it will be a heck of a lot better to endure. He has been sulky of late and it is tiring to see his demeanor after every poorish performance. Throwing players under the bus regularly is also another thing he is engaging in regularly.

I knew these were traits of his but I was hoping - incorrectly as it now seems - that he would mend these parts and actually be a more bearable man now that he is our manager.

SAF too had teams not doing well. Players who weren't good enough but I barely remember him cribbing about money and transfers all the time. Nor would be throw players under the buses at the drop of a hat.

I really wish Mourinho just focuses on the players he has rather than cry about ones he cannot afford.
 

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Silva, Sterling, Sane, KDB, Aguero is like cheating. They don't even need a class keeper or backline.

They simply need defenders to be good on the ball.

He makes some good points but let's be realistic - city's attack is insanely good and Pep inherited immense attackers and added a few too. It comes down to money mostly.
Like cheating? You're talking as though they are Real Madrid. What did Sane, Sterling or even De Bruyne ever do before this season for them to be classified as so good it's almost cheating? One arrived with a reputation no better or worse than Martial. The other had a good season at Liverpool like so many other English players only to be considered a waste money after moving to City with the third standing out in the German league at a non top club. Even Mikhitaryan arrived with more achievements in his career than De Bruyne. Agüero is brilliant and has been for years in the PL but it's not like anybody considered him on par with Suarez or Lewandowski. As for Silva, I am personally a fan and think of him as one of the best playmakers in PL history but let's be real here, having Iniesta is like cheating, having David Silva is not. Why are you exaggerating the level of their players to the point you'd think they have been Balon d'Or short listed and multiple CL winners?
 

DdeGoat

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He quite deliberately chooses players that anyone would prefer from Utd over City. Why not mention De Bruyne, Silva, Aguero or Jesus? They’re the key difference. No mention of the full backs either. It also ignores the rather key fact that Pogba has missed almost half the season for one reason or another.
He is comparing each position on the field from GK to the striker and saying that did anyone consider City having much superior players in any of that positions? He is not wrong.

As for full backs, Jose and our team darling Herrera last season said that Valencia is one of the best in his position. And at LB they play Fabian fecking Delph.
 

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Like cheating? You're talking as though they are Real Madrid. What did Sane, Sterling or even De Bruyne ever do before this season for them to be classified as so good it's almost cheating? One arrived with a reputation no better or worse than Martial. The other had a good season at Liverpool like so many other English players only to be considered a waste money after moving to City with the third standing out in the German league at a non top club. Even Mikhitaryan arrived with more achievements in his career than De Bruyne. Agüero is brilliant and has been for years in the PL but it's not like anybody considered him on par with Suarez or Lewandowski. As for Silva, I am personally a fan and think of him as one of the best playmakers in PL history but let's be real here, having Iniesta is like cheating, having David Silva is not. Why are you exaggerating the level of their players to the point you'd think they have been Balon d'Or short listed and multiple CL winners?
I have always rated Silva extremely high and consider KDB to have amongst the best final ball outside of the box in the world. Then you add the deadliest striker in PL history and a young player in Sterling that has pace and can beat players and greatly improved finishing.

Their attack is historically good so far and most of it comes down to buying expensive attackers.

Credit to pep for getting them all to click but I don't buy that pep would win the league with our squad.
 

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Gabriel Jesus was a top 5 wonderkid in the world for his age group, if not the # 1. If Carragher didnt know that then he needs to take his head out of his fecking arse. Comparing him to a young player we bought that has suffered a broken leg is also very stupid on Carraghers part. Yes, Jesus was cheaper which is proof that United pay above the odds for players.

Also, he makes no reference to any of the players that were already at City when Guardiola arrived, or that they had won the fecking league! Where were we when Mourinho arrived? Playing two geriatrics well past their sell by dates, Schwinsteiger and Rooney.

Kevin de Bruyne was shit at Chelsea, lets not pretend that he was anything else just because he is playing well under Guardiola, being sold back to Germany was probably the kick up the arse he needed. And the way he was playing at Wolfsburg its hard to suggest his current form is just because of Guardiola, City bought him for a reason.

Saying Guardiola has developed players rather than relying on ready made talent is so fecking stupid I now understand why Carragher is a pundit and not involved in football. Here are the names of players Guardiola has aparently developed...

Otamendi, signed because he made Messi look average on several occasions in La Liga.

Silva, Kompany, Aguero...

Sterling never had that outstanding season under Rodgers at Liverpool apparently.

KDB didnt win the league at City before Guardiola arrived and didnt have an amazong season at Wolfsburg. All Guardiola.

John Stones was not an excellent CB at Everton, showing the kind of form a yound Ferdinand showed. No one wanted to sign him apparently...

Players improve, thats what happens.

And yes Jamie, we know that Guardiola and Mourinho have different styles, we've known that since 2008, glad you could finally join the rest of us. Scouse twat!
 

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Have to agree with most part of the article.
 

roonster09

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I am not too sure about Mourinho improving your defense as a system this season. You are still conceding way too many shots.
These are the shots conceded per game by the Top 6 so far this season. Yours is almost double that of City and comfortable worse in the Top 6.

City: 6.1
Liverpool 7.6
United: 11.8
Chelsea: 9.8
Arsenal: 9.7
Spurs: 9.2

The key difference for United has been DDG. He has made 70 saves (2nd highest in the league) and conceded 16 goals. Contrast this to someone like Mignolet with 33 saves (2nd lowest in the league) and 23 goals conceded.

Even if you compare against last few seasons, you will have to go back to the Moyes season for worse performance.

16-17: 9.5
15-16: 10.8
14-15: 10.1
13-14: 11.9

Now, I know this is just one stat which cannot capture the entire picture. But still, I feel for a good defensive unit, limiting the number of shots conceded is quite important.
Number of shots conceded wont tell which team has better defense.
 

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Great article. Good to see people aren’t buying into the “we need to sign more players” bullshit. Pep has coached good movement and decision making into City, and has improved his players. Jose has failed to do the same to any degree of similarity. It’s a coaching problem.
 

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A train wreck of an article.

Think about it...how many of our first XI would Pep would replace his XI with? De Gea, full stop.

The better argument is the obvious: Over the last four seasons City have done much better than United have in player acquisition/purging.

Pep may or not may be the better manager -- I would give him the edge -- but there's no chance he could have made this squad into one that has gone unbeaten with only one draw this season in league play.
Spot on. Not one United player barring DDG would get into the City squad at the moment.

Come to that, some of our players would struggle to get into the Swansea squad.
 

fredthered

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Number of shots conceded wont tell which team has better defense.
It kind of does.. If teams are shooting at Uniteds goalie, it means they have the ball which you could argue suggests they are attacking us far more than they are other teams.

Its like when United used to apparantly always get penalties, and no one ever got them against us. Of course they didn't because they never got into our penalty area, and we were always in theirs.

If we're letting teams get close enough to shoot, defensively we're failing.
 

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It kind of does.. If teams are shooting at Uniteds goalie, it means they have the ball which you could argue suggests they are attacking us far more than they are other teams.

Its like when United used to apparantly always get penalties, and no one ever got them against us. Of course they didn't because they never got into our penalty area, and we were always in theirs.

If we're letting teams get close enough to shoot, defensively we're failing.
Or most of the shots are just hopeless punts which has nothing to do with defense.
 

fredthered

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Or most of the shots are just hopeless punts which has nothing to do with defense.
To shoot, you have to have the ball.

The reason City are so good this season, in many ways much like Barca, is they stop teams having the ball. If the opposition don't have the ball they can't threaten you. If however you are constantly being attacked in your half of the pitch, then it means somewhere your defensive tactics are not working.

If our opponents don't have the ball they cannot score. Simple as that. City are the best team in the country by a mile and more because once that whistle blows you know they will get the ball and play it around. If they don't they harass the opposition so much they make mistakes and then steal the ball from them.
 

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To shoot, you have to have the ball.

The reason City are so good this season, in many ways much like Barca, is they stop teams having the ball. If the opposition don't have the ball they can't threaten you. If however you are constantly being attacked in your half of the pitch, then it means somewhere your defensive tactics are not working.

If our opponents don't have the ball they cannot score. Simple as that. City are the best team in the country by a mile and more because once that whistle blows you know they will get the ball and play it around. If they don't they harass the opposition so much they make mistakes and then steal the ball from them.
Defense is not just having the ball. It's also about maintaining shape and aware of runners, not allowing runners get past the line and all that. It's like saying shots on goals means best attack without even checking clear goal scoring chances created.
 

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United-City points gap, H2H, and net spend gap (+ for United on top):

12-13: +11, 4-4, +36m
13-14: -22, 1-7, -23m
14-15: -9, 4-3, +54m
15-16: 0, 1-0, -45m

16-17: -9, 1-2, -63m
17-18: [-15], [1-2], +18.5m

Coloured according to the United manager at the time. 1st season was Fergie vs Mancini, next was Moyes vs Pellegrini, next 2 were LvG vs Pellegrini, and finally Jose v Pep in the last 2.

For a superficial analysis: This is the only year where a spending advantage has not translated to a relative improvement in the points. LvG was the only manager who narrowed the gap and won the H2H...
More generally, not many 1st team survivors remain from the 12/13 sides for both. Aguero and Silva vs DDG, Valencia, Young, Smalling, Jones. Our midfield and attack have been revamped while their entire team has been. The overall spending isn't equal but is very comparable. (they've spent net 30m more over 6 seasons).

IMO this shows that the problem has been in recruitment and then in management.
 
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Jeffthered

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Come on, we can all see it. This article is pretty much spot-on.

Look at and listen to Mourinho's Press Conference yesterday. It's embarrassing. He has spent the week talking about Man City and Liverpool.

Why?

I think it's a poor reflection and representation of a great club. Manchester United deserve better. Show some class and dignity.

He should be more interested in explaining why we can't beat Leicester, Burnley or Bristol City, despite a £300m outlay.
 

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The whole premise of the article is so wrong-headed (that the two Manchester clubs started the season with equally strong squads) that it’s impossible to take any of the rest of it seriously.

Also, re improving players, Rashford and Martial have both been much more productive this season than last. They’re having a wobble now but that’s what young players do. We’ve already seen stats showing how similar their productivity is to Sane, who is lucky to be playing in a team at the peak of its powers while our lads have been in a team shorn of its best player for most of the season.

Which leaves us with the improvement of Ottamendi and Stones. And you could easily argue this has been matched by what we’ve seen from Jones and (pre-injury) Rojo.
With you until Rojo I’m not convinced and never have been.
 

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That's not a fact, it is an opinion. The article addresses this very opinion and does quite a good job at it. Mkhitaryan was player of the year in a major European league. Pogba is a major league winner, a Euro finalist and a CL finalist. Mata is a WC winner. Matic, Valencia, Young, Smalling, Jones, De Gea, Carrick are PL winners. Lukaku is the highest goalscorer in the history of the Belgium national team. That is not a squad of players that can ever be considered lower than anyone in the league from an individual standpoint. If it is, we have to find a criteria that is not players performances and achievements throughout their career to judge them by.

As for the other fact about winning trophies, do you happen to think Wenger and LvG also did a better job because they won an FA Cup? The former won 3 of the past 4. Surely you also know that City did not even compete for one of the trophies we won. I, like any fan, think there is nothing better than a Cup final but the thrill and glory of it should never be mistaken as an indicator of quality.

Let’s address your first point but we really need to look at squads that were inherited, Pogba Matic and Lukaku were all bought by Jose so not sure we can take this as a good squad that he took over. It was more DDG Rooney Mata and Carrick our mainstays in comparison to City team being Augero Silva Fernandinho Sterling it’s easy imo to see who took over the strongest squad.
 

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United-City points gap, H2H, and net spend gap (+ for United on top):

12-13: +11, 4-4, +36m
13-14: -22, 1-7, -23m
14-15: -9, 4-3, +54m
15-16: 0, 1-0, -45m

16-17: -9, 1-2, -63m
17-18: [-15], [1-2], +18.5m

Coloured according to the United manager at the time. 1st season was Fergie vs Mancini, next was Moyes vs Pellegrini, next 2 were LvG vs Pellegrini, and finally Jose v Pep in the last 2.

For a superficial analysis: This is the only year where a spending advantage has not translated to a relative improvement in the points. LvG was the only manager who narrowed the gap and won the H2H...
More generally, not many 1st team survivors remain from the 12/13 sides for both. Aguero and Silva vs DDG, Valencia, Young, Smalling, Jones. Our midfield and attack have been revamped while their entire team has been. The overall spending isn't equal but is very comparable. (they've spent net 30m more over 6 seasons).

IMO this shows that the problem has been in recruitment and then in management.
The way I would interpret that analysis is that any season where we get out-spent results in us falling behind the following season. Which makes sense when you consider new signings usually take a season to bed in. So we’re currently feeling the pinch from the -65m last season (biggest deficit in that analysis).

And the elephant in the room is that City have had a DoF throughout, so every signing was part of a grand plan. We’ve had to tear everything up and start again, three times over. Hundreds of millions of pounds wasted makes the head to head spend comparison essentially meaningless.
 
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He has Good arguments but based on false premised:


1. Premise 1: Mourinho has no patience to improve what he has:
Rojo, Valencia, Young have all gone up a level defensively. Darmian returned to form last season, though he is off the boil again. Jones is fit again and one of the best defenders in the league after years of injury woe and mockery. Rashford is now an effective presence on the wing, which he wasn't before. Martial is now excellent defensively and no longer runs into cul de sacs. Fellaini has got even more effective under Mourinho. Herrera had his best season last year since leaving Bilbao, in spite of his current strange loss of form . Lingard is now
one of United's key players. Mhikitatryan had a night mare start to his United career, yet Mourinho patiently nursed him into one of United's top performers in their Europa campaign last season and looks like he has to redo the trick. He has waited patiently for Shaw to return to fitness. Rather than doing a Guardiola and replacing his fullbacks. Matic who is the toast of the town was told 'good riddance, "you're past it' by his own fans in the summer.
Verdict: False

2. City are good this season because Guardiola has developed players:

Were Fernandinho, Otamendo, Stones, De Bryune, David Silva, Bernardo Silva, Mendy, Walker, Gabriel Jesus, Ederson, Sterling and Sane all class before Pep signed them? Yes
Are they still class? Yes

Did Sterling show this form in his first season at Liverpool ? Yes

Isn't he replicating it because of maturity due to age in a performing team? Yes

Wasn't Otamendi once voted LA liga defender of the year? Yes. Was it down to Pep? No. Isn't he showing that form again? Yes.

Verdict : False

3. Pep has patience to improve what he has:

Tell that to Jesus Navas, Gael Clichy, Mangala, Bravo, Nitcham, Iheanacho, Nolito and Fernando. Delph survived due to being injured in the summer.

Verdict: False
4. United fans wouldn't have swapped Sterling for Rashford:

Yes. Just not for the reasons Carragher is arguing. Rashford is seen as a future CF and symbol of United's local grown talent. Sterling is just a super English talent like one Wayne Rooney. Fans love the earlier ones more always.

Verdict: true but misleading
5. "If you want to evolve a club you don't call Mourinho'

Chelsea and Abramovich say hi. Mourinho left foundations that won the champions league years after he left. He built the bulk of the Real squad that has now conquered Europe 3times. Even back to back.

Verdict False
6. Mourinho doesn't use the raw material he has. Only loves ready made talent:
Porto, Chelsea and Inter. 3 times he built teams on either young players or cobbling existing resources together with new ones. Besides, like Guardiola he HAS earned the right to only coach clubs that spend heavily on top talent

Verdict: false
 

Jeppers7

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Jamie Carragher sits down with an agenda and then tries to fit his narrative after he starts writing.


Flawed argument here, only explores one side. What about De Bruyne, D. Silva and Aguero? All of them considered top 10 players in the league. He mentions CBs but neglects to mention Kompany who when fit is always straight into the starting lineup.


And Guardiola bought a CB for 50m then next summer shattered the record for a full back only to break it again for another full back 10 days later. 100m for 2 full backs. Pogba's fee is already a "bargain" (brackets because it's still a lot of money) despite him joining less than 2 years ago.



A lot of fans would have swapped the two. But yea, doesn't matter that Sterling has been playing far longer than Rashford does it? Martial's record when he joined was "who is that?". Sané's reputation was "City has bought one of Germany's biggest talents". We did as well with Martial but he didn't have that reputation yet.

Shaw is a 30m full back (not a José purchased) that's pretty much been unfit the entire Mourinho tenure but Mendy gets the injury treatment from Carragher.


Mkhi? No. Some players don't adapt and work out. That happens all the time with transfers. Has Bernardo Silva improved under Pep? Lukaku has been here 6 months. How good was Sterling last season? Pogba has certainly improved and there's a massive difference when he's absent.


Plain bullshit from Carragher. Ederson was a fully established goalkeeper that played well in the CL prior season. Kyle Walker? Never heard of him before? Danilo had played for Porto and Real Madrid, what a shit player he must have been. Mendy was established but not Bernardo Silva? Claudio Bravo was the Barca keeper and Nolito a Spanish international that chose City over a Spanish giant.


Pure speculations. Mourinho always sell players that want to leave. He sold Mata and Lukaku as well. He sold Robben to Real. If players don't want to play for him he sells them. Do other managers do that? Yes, plenty do.


Hazard, Sanchez, D. Silva and Augero are the players that were talked about in the same ilk as De Bruyne is now. Hazard has been largely absent but he's up there with De Bruyne. Pogba could be as well but he's also been largely absent. Sanchez hasn't been as good and neither has Aguero and that leaves De Bruyne and D. Silva as the top players in the league. I'm not going to argue semantics like "Kane is up there", that's irrelevant. David Silva hasn't been revitalized, he's always been great and Pep did nothing special with him, he just got him better players to work off of on either side of him.

Delph and Otamendi would not be worse under Mourinho. Would Young and Valencia be the same players under Pep? What about Rojo or Jones? See how easy it is to turn it around.

Guardiola had to ship out ageing players? Jeez, must have been difficult to let the contracts run out like that. Rooney, Carrick, Schweinsteiger just left. Both the previous manager had to replace ageing players. That's what managers have to do in football. The ageing players Pep got rid off were full backs.

Such a shit article. He should go into politics with words like that. Populist nonsense.

Well said. Carragher has an agenda with Jose that stems from his playing days. He's so scouse he won't even be aware of its existence
 

James Peril

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A train wreck of an article.

Think about it...how many of our first XI would Pep would replace his XI with? De Gea, full stop.

The better argument is the obvious: Over the last four seasons City have done much better than United have in player acquisition/purging.

Pep may or not may be the better manager -- I would give him the edge -- but there's no chance he could have made this squad into one that has gone unbeaten with only one draw this season in league play.
The funny thing is, he would never swap Ederson for de Gea. Sure enough our man is the better keeper and shot stopper, but he is miles behind Ederson in terms of distribution and reading the game. De Gea would save more shots, but he would not «create» anything from the back - which is what Pep wants
 

Nikelesh Reddy

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football...-guardiola-man/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Please read the full thing and not just the headline before responding. I disagree that Guardiola would win the title with this squad, but do agree with the point about player development. Bar Lingard, Fellaini and Young we've not seen big signs of improvement in our players. I also agree with the bit about his press conferences of late too.

I disagree with this bit too:



If Mourinho was purely about the instant hit he wouldn't have signed Bailly or Lindelof and we wouldn't be linked to Malcom.
Apart from Lingard,Fellaini and Young,Phil Jones has really established himself under Jose.Valencia has taken his game to another level,Marcos Rojos performing much better than he ever did under LVG,Rashfords been progressing impressively,so I think Mourinhos brought about huge improvement in a short period of time.We have progressed even compared to last season,let's not forget this fact....Carraghers way off the mark,Guardiola would finish 2nd with this United Squad and Jose would win the title with the current City Squad.

Of course Jose won't play the same brand of football,but he"ll comfortably win the title with this City squad....
 

Needham

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"If Pep Guardiola was in charge of the United squad I believe they would win the title."
It's possible. But if he is implying in the article that there is parity of talent between the City and Utd squads, I fundamentally disagree. The game intelligence and god given footballing ability of our front line in particular does not compare. City are way out in front. Danny Mills keeps using this "Utd have a great squad" as a stick to beat Mourinho with, too. We don't have a great squad. Look hard at the abilities of too many of our players.
 

noodlehair

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The first part of that article is the kind of agenda driven nonsense you get on here. Completely one sided and using a large degree of re-invetionism or basically lies instead of making valid points.

You can't on the one hand say "Mourinho's complaints about the value of the squads doesn't add up" (I mean, this is a factually incorrect statement anyway), then start comparing the two team's defenders wiith a view to showing how Pep has "developed" his better, when City have spent nearly £200m on defensive players since Pep took charge, compared to United spending what, £60m at most?

Pep has signed 13 players in less than 2 years, for £400m. So arguing he has developed a team while Jose has attempted to buy one is completely laughable and to be honest pathetic. You would struggle to find a City fan who would bother attempting to make that argument. You would struggle to find any sane person who doesn't tink United need to spend more money if they want to compete with City.

Claiming only Lingard and Fellaini have improved under Jose...I would like to know how Carragher would explain how United have gone from 6th to 2nd when the only players who have improved according to him, are two who don't even usually get into United's first team.

The more you think about it the stupider it gets.

Although, I do agee that Jose moans and makes excuses far too much, but then, anyone can tell you that.
 

acnumber9

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Why exactly what Mkhitaryan did in Germany not count and De Bruyne's does? You do realise they both were player of the year in the same league, no? And why is Lukaku's record insignificant? Maybe you can tell us your criteria of what matters to see how it measures up against our rivals? As for Mata, what about the fact that he was player of the year at Chelsea twice? Is that criteria also not enough to make him be called useless?

As for your points about the City players, what exactly is your argument? It sounds like you are trying to say they have top players which as far as I can see no one tried to argue against. The point is we both have top squads, the difference if there is any, is not decisive, certainly not decisive enough to warrant a 15 pts gap. For such gap to be explained by individual quality, the difference in said individual quality would need to be gigantic, the type of gap between top clubs and mid table ones.
You were stating these things like that meant nobody could be better than us because we have all those players with those credentials. The point is some of them mean absolutely nothing when comparing the quality of squads. And the same and more can be said about other clubs.

De Bruyne, unlike Mkhitaryan, has proven to be a good player in England also. And that was proven before Guardiola came along. Who said Mata was useless? Him playing 20 minutes of a game against Honduras isn’t evidence that we have a squad on the level of our rivals especially when their equivalent was one of the players keeping him out of their team. Fernando Llorente was part of that squad too does that mean Spurs have a squad on par with Man City? Pochettino must be really shit. He has players who’ve played in Euros finals and somebody who just beat Alan Shearers calendar year record. Lukaku’s international record is insignificant for comparing against our rivals because their strikers aren’t Belgian. If Aguero were Belgian then Lukaku wouldn’t even be first choice much less their record goal scorer.

Guardiola has done a good job and we’re having a sticky patch, coupled with a better squad to begin with and more money to spend, that’s why the gap is what it is. Last years champions are even further behind and Conte is a bloody good manager as well.
 

acnumber9

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He is comparing each position on the field from GK to the striker and saying that did anyone consider City having much superior players in any of that positions? He is not wrong.

As for full backs, Jose and our team darling Herrera last season said that Valencia is one of the best in his position. And at LB they play Fabian fecking Delph.
He isn’t though unless that paragraph quoted chopped out the likes of De Bruyne and Aguero. Man City have finished above Utd in 5 of the last 6 seasons and have been ahead of us in the bookmakers odds for the title in each of them. It’s nonsense to say the majority of people didn’t think they had a better squad. They have done for years.

As for fullbacks, Jose Mourinho hasn’t spent a penny on them while Guardiola spent over £100m on them in the summer.
 
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