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2022-23 Performances

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6.4 Season Average Rating
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bosnian_red

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Marwood said:
So basically if Madrids scouting team wasn't all that good, if they hadn't signed Kroos, Modric, Ronaldo etc you'd rank Casemiro lower.

It's just nonsense. His ability is what it is.

You shouldn't be altering your opinion of a player based on what his club/manager/scouting department does.
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The question was - who has achieved more.

My opinion on their player ability (Keane and Casemiro) is similar.

When ranking players - achievements of course come into play. So if you have 2 players with similar ability, but one has achieved more, then the one who has achieved more will be ranked higher.

Do you disagree that Casemiro has achieved more? Because that was the original question which you kept avoiding.
 

bosnian_red

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Olecurls99 said:
I can really not understand how a Man United fan would go out of his way to undervalue a United great.

Roy Keane was the best player in England from 1993-2003. Undoubted. Ten years of being the best player and captain of one of the greatest teams in English football.

Please stop
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It's called being objective...

Calling Keane the undoubted best player in england between 1993-2003 is also just plain false, considering we had Cantona for a good bit of that, and there were individual seasons where Beckham or Giggs were more important. And there were others from Arsenal for example who could compete, in their eyes. No player in the history of football was the "mostly" undisputed best player in a country for 10 years other than Messi, and he was disputed with Ronaldo even.

So yeah. This is an example of not being objective. I'm not undervaluing Keane. I said before he signed that Casemiro was modern day Roy Keane. But when we talk about what a player has achieved... Well there are almost no players out there who can stack up with Casemiro. Keane doesn't in terms of achievements, even if as players they were a similar level for me.

Besides this all started out with someone comparing Carrick to Casemiro, which is a bit ridiculous if we are being fair and objective, as good as Carrick was at his best. Fair comparisons for Casemiro at their best with their careers are guys like Keane and Robson. Not Carrick.
 

bosnian_red

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OrcaFat said:
Out of interest, take Alan Shearer - no CLs, only one Prem title and compare him to our own Andrew Cole. Would you really use the “look what he’s won” argument there?
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Again - the question is if the players are of very similar quality, you then move to achievements and their roles in those achievements. Isn't that just pretty standard?

Also for strikers there's a pretty easy barometer for measuring how they did if they were pure goalscorers. Defensive midfielders is much more based on watching them and their impact over time - and then yes like Keane and Casemiro, if you rate them equally as individuals, you then move on to what they achieved.
 

Lights Out

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Did somebody just say Nicky Butt was better than Paul Ince?!
This forum is fecking mental.
 

Olecurls99

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bosnian_red said:
It's called being objective...

Calling Keane the undoubted best player in england between 1993-2003 is also just plain false, considering we had Cantona for a good bit of that, and there were individual seasons where Beckham or Giggs were more important. And there were others from Arsenal for example who could compete, in their eyes. No player in the history of football was the "mostly" undisputed best player in a country for 10 years other than Messi, and he was disputed with Ronaldo even.

So yeah. This is an example of not being objective. I'm not undervaluing Keane. I said before he signed that Casemiro was modern day Roy Keane. But when we talk about what a player has achieved... Well there are almost no players out there who can stack up with Casemiro. Keane doesn't in terms of achievements, even if as players they were a similar level for me.

Besides this all started out with someone comparing Carrick to Casemiro, which is a bit ridiculous if we are being fair and objective, as good as Carrick was at his best. Fair comparisons for Casemiro at their best with their careers are guys like Keane and Robson. Not Carrick.
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Look, you were born in 1994. I'm just gonna tell ya that there was no season that Beckham or Giggs were more important than Keano unless you're talking about when he was injured and we didn’t win the league, because that's what happened.

You need to give yourself a history lesson. Start with the career of one Roy Keane.
 

bosnian_red

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Olecurls99 said:
Look, you were born in 1994. I'm just gonna tell ya that there was no season that Beckham or Giggs were more important than Keano unless you're talking about when he was injured and we didn’t win the league, because that's what happened.

You need to give yourself a history lesson. Start with the career of one Roy Keane.
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Yeah I think you need a history lesson if you genuinely think Keane was undisputedly the best player for 10 years in England. It's just not true. At all. He had years that yes he was. But he was not seen as so, undisputedly. Maybe in your eyes. But if it was undisputedly, then he would rank above United players in ballon D'or rankings every year. Which wasn't the case.

Undisputed best would mean Arsenal fans accepting he was better than Vieira (not the case). Undisputed best would mean that there wouldn't be multiple premier league players ranked in the Ballon D'ors every year, when he wasn't... Or in 1999, where Beckham was ranked #2 and Keane in his biggest year was #6. In fact Keane was only in the top 30 twice, in 1999 where he was 6th, and then he got 1 vote in 2000. While Beckham, Giggs, Schmeichel, Cantona all got multiple years of good rankings. Let alone other PL players. Call Ballon D'or rankings what you want, but your statement is a pile of horseshit and you know it.

Anyway - like I said. Keane was fantastic. Casemiro is fantastic and IMO as similar a player as there has been to him in modern football. It's fair to compare them - and it's fair to say that in terms of achievements, Casemiro has surpassed pretty much any United player.
 
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OrcaFat

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bosnian_red said:
Again - the question is if the players are of very similar quality, you then move to achievements and their roles in those achievements. Isn't that just pretty standard?

Also for strikers there's a pretty easy barometer for measuring how they did if they were pure goalscorers. Defensive midfielders is much more based on watching them and their impact over time - and then yes like Keane and Casemiro, if you rate them equally as individuals, you then move on to what they achieved.
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Ah okay, if you really can’t split them as individuals, you could use it as a tie breaker, but then you could be into a debate about the relative merits of their achievements!

If I can’t split them individually, I’d probably just declare a draw. However I personally think Keane was very slightly better.
 

OrcaFat

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Djemba-Djemba said:
Still can't quite believe he's ours.

World class
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I totally agree. It’s surreal. He is the best we’ve had since Keane at the very least and that was such a long time ago. What a difference it makes!

I think of all the money we spent in other parts of the pitch and yet - what a shock - as soon as the midfield is properly addressed we look like a good team again.

PS I hope all the posters who were defending McT or Fred (both of whom I like a lot) can see why we wanted better players brought in for the starting 11.
 

Long Time Red

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Hands down the most transformational signing in history.

It's partly due to us never being that shit in one position but he's not only a massive upgrade on what we already had but he's making everyone else better.

Give him the armband ETH.
 

Red the Bear

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I think he will become the second player to have won 6 European cups hopefully by next season.
 

arnie_ni

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Is there a better midfielder in the league? He's so class. I really didn't appreciate him enough at Madrid. Thought he was just a disruptor
 

Atheist

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He’s like Paul Scholes + Roy Keane combined with their best qualities.
 

NotoriousISSY

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This isn't to start a who's better than who debate, but having someone at least as good as prime Carrick makes a team so much better.

There's no pissing about with this guy. Ball comes to him and he knows where it's going. I feel like it's 2008 again, but then I realise we don't have a good striker :(
 

mu4c_20le

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Atheist said:
He’s like Paul Scholes + Roy Keane combined with their best qualities.
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His passing definitely surprised me.

We've always been looking for a midfielder with unrealistic expectations, someone who could do it all. Can't beleive we actually landed one.
 

Stadjer

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This guy is amazing. City and Liverpool had excellent defensive midfielders from Brazil (Fabinho and Fernandinho) but this guy is the best of those defensive midfielders from Brazil.
 

Regulus Arcturus Black

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Someone mentioned in the match thread that he’s our modern day Cantona moment, couldn’t agree more, the effect is absolutely astonishing and why oh why his previous club sold him to us I’ll never get my head around.

What a player.
 

Shai-Hulud

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One of the very best players in the past decade for us. I'd watch him read the dictionary.
 
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