[Oranges038]

Eh? He quite obviously put both of his hands around Hughes' neck. Only Casemiro and Hughes will know the severity and force used, but it did happen.

Ah yes, the image VAR was shown.

Where as the full clip shows him briefly grabbing him by the collar and then they laugh and walk away. Meanwhile in another section of that clip the Palace player has a Utd player by the throat.

Yet they only decided to focus on that still image and punish one player out of about 10 who were involved in all the pushing and shoving.

 

[Berbaclass]

Eh? He quite obviously put both of his hands around Hughes' neck. Only Casemiro and Hughes will know the severity and force used, but it did happen.

 

[DWelbz19]

I don't think Casemiro's legs have gone, I think that's a bit of a lazy remark. I think his issues are for multiple reasons.

• The players he's playing next to in midfield. He's playing in midfield by himself a lot due to the other two going wandering.
• He doesn't seem to look after himself well off the pitch. He really enjoyed himself over pre-season. Not to stereotypes but a lot of Brazilians are like this.
• He doesn't suit Ten Hag's system. He seems to do better in more tactically free teams.
• He's a bit lazy. I don't mean he won't run, I mean he often seems to take the easiest option so he doesn't have to work as hard. For example, trying to smash someone to end the attack immediately so he doesn't have to track back.
• Not fully adjusting to the PL. It might sound weird, but I don't think he has yet.

There are lots of positives to having him around but it's sad to say that we have to think about replacing a 60M player that we got last season already.

I think his legs are going rather than totally gone already -- but the things you mention above are exacerbating it. At least, bullet points 1, 3, and 4.

I think it's mostly the fact that he is:
1. a 31 year old defensive midfielder who is mostly having to play behind two slight no.10s. Mount and Fernandes might press and cover distance a lot but they're both non-entities for defensive work when compared to actual central midfielders. Eriksen is even worse.

2. What @Brwned said on page 33 and what your third and fourth bullet point allude to. Casemiro is at the stage of his career where he's done all the water carrying at an elite level to win all the silverware he can. He's now just out there vibing; sometimes defending, sometimes having bizarre runs where he's the furthest forward, sometimes crazy fouls, sometimes bagging 20 G/A's in 60 matches.

If we put him in a disciplined no.6 role with a disciplined balanced midfield around him, we could definitely preserve his shelf life for a little longer.

I don't think we, nor him, actually will do that though. A reckless blaze of a final season this year before a move next summer seems likely in my mind.

 

[Sky1981]

Another Matic. Another deadwood to clear next season

This is why i against buying 30 and above player during a rebuild. They add minimum while creating 3-4 years of headache of trying to move them on.

Madrid reject. And we lap it up hook line sinker

 

[redcucumber]

Ah yes, the image VAR was shown.

Where as the full clip shows him briefly grabbing him by the collar and then they laugh and walk away. Meanwhile in another section of that clip the Palace player has a Utd player by the throat.

Yet they only decided to focus on that still image and punish one player out of about 10 who were involved in all the pushing and shoving.

What am I missing here? Casemiro puts his hands around Hughes' throat. I don't give a shit, it was last season etc., but I was under the impression it was a fairly obvious red card.

 

[Cloud7]

Another Matic. Another deadwood to clear next season

This is why i against buying 30 and above player during a rebuild. They add minimum while creating 3-4 years of headache of trying to move them on.

Madrid reject. And we lap it up hook line sinker

Every time this is pointed out the people pointing it out get laughed at and yet we keep on seeing evidence of us signing players around 30 and above not going well for us past a few months or so

 

[jem]

When you look at the other angle, it's more a grabbing of the lapels. Silly from Casemiro as you just can't put your hands in that area, but in no way was he throttling him ala Duncan Ferguson.

 

[mintyred]

Another Matic. Another deadwood to clear next season

This is why i against buying 30 and above player during a rebuild. They add minimum while creating 3-4 years of headache of trying to move them on.

Madrid reject. And we lap it up hook line sinker

The funny thing is Matic gave us a good few years and we felt it immediately when he left. He’s loved in Roma. Whilst you can’t build around older players, saying no 30+ year olds is a bit “fifa logic”.

A player doesn’t automatically decline massively at 30, plus there are more aspects they can off that a young player can’t.

 

[Sky1981]

The funny thing is Matic gave us a good few years and we felt it immediately when he left. He’s loved in Roma. Whilst you can’t build around older players, saying no 30+ year olds is a bit “fifa logic”.

A player doesn’t automatically decline massively at 30, plus there are more aspects they can off that a young player can’t.

They did decline, not every midfielder is Andreas Pirlo, the way we're playing, ETH should know better. You can afford a luxury 30+ players if you have the legs to cover it, but not as the sole DM.

Plus Roma bought Matic for ? I guess it's only a miniscule of what we paid for him. I don't mind having a few old guards sprinkled here and there as stop gap, but for 60M we could have just go for the young and coming midfielder

 

[Trezeguet17]

I think his legs are going rather than totally gone already -- but the things you mention above are exacerbating it. At least, bullet points 1, 3, and 4.

I think it's mostly the fact that he is:
1. a 31 year old defensive midfielder who is mostly having to play behind two slight no.10s. Mount and Fernandes might press and cover distance a lot but they're both non-entities for defensive work when compared to actual central midfielders. Eriksen is even worse.

2. What @Brwned said on page 33 and what your third and fourth bullet point allude to. Casemiro is at the stage of his career where he's done all the water carrying at an elite level to win all the silverware he can. He's now just out there vibing; sometimes defending, sometimes having bizarre runs where he's the furthest forward, sometimes crazy fouls, sometimes bagging 20 G/A's in 60 matches.

If we put him in a disciplined no.6 role with a disciplined balanced midfield around him, we could definitely preserve his shelf life for a little longer.

I don't think we, nor him, actually will do that though. A reckless blaze of a final season this year before a move next summer seems likely in my mind.

That's such a good point.
He won everything, was considered arguably the best player at his position, and despite outstanding performances, he wasn't the standout star. And that's simply because the position he plays in doesn't allow him to decide many games or set highlights.

Why should he leave arguably the biggest club in the world, which plays for every title year after year at his own request?
Because he is now the biggest star of his team in a huge club and wants to prove that he can win when all eyes are on him an not as the disciplined water carrier for Kroos and Modric and you can see that in his style of play which is all over the place.
He still has it in him, but he is a different player than he was at Madrid.

 

[OrcaFat]

What am I missing here? Casemiro puts his hands around Hughes' throat. I don't give a shit, it was last season etc., but I was under the impression it was a fairly obvious red card.

This went round and round for ages at the time. It wasn’t obvious because dozens of people disagreed. It was a huge melee with all sorts going on and when you watch the whole clip Case is clearly not being aggressive and as loads of people said at the time, the two players are fine about it. It is a classic case of some jobsworth ignoring context, and using one incriminating angle to justify picking out one random guy from the ruck and sending him off. It was totally unnecessary and against the spirit of the game. So you can stick your obvious red card somewhere dark.

 

[Member 117152]

The funny thing is Matic gave us a good few years and we felt it immediately when he left. He’s loved in Roma. Whilst you can’t build around older players, saying no 30+ year olds is a bit “fifa logic”.

A player doesn’t automatically decline massively at 30, plus there are more aspects they can off that a young player can’t.

Agree with this totally. Casemiro is still one of our best players anyways. He affects a game more times than not.

When we played well last season it’s was because of Casermiro not in spite of him. Maybe if he had an actual back four and a partner in midfield we wouldn’t expect him to be a box to box, attacking CDM midfielder he seems to be this season.

Dude is trying to score goals, cover both sides of midfield and be a deep lying playmaker all wrapped into one.

He’s been judged to impossible standards. Why don’t the other players like Dalot dominate games in their own way? Ahhh that’s right because they aren’t very good so get a free pass.

Casemiro and Bruno are the problem though obviously… Neither gets a break either at our club because we have zero depth despite spending 1 billion on footballers.

Go to City it’s rotation and be in peak physical shape most weeks. Come to United it’s just we’ll play you into your body breaks basically.

 

[Strats]

Matic was done with dealing with the intensity of the Premier League. Think Casemiro would look much better in Italy as well.

Part of me wonders how he’d fair as a CB. He just looks way too slow to be what we need in a DM at the moment.

 

[lex talionis]

The simple diagnosis is that Case cannot go twice at 90+ a week now. Just play him less and we’ll get a lot more out of him.

 

[ArmaDino]

Another Matic. Another deadwood to clear next season

This is why i against buying 30 and above player during a rebuild. They add minimum while creating 3-4 years of headache of trying to move them on.

Madrid reject. And we lap it up hook line sinker

Come on mate, he is a Madrid reject the same way David Beckham was when we sold him.

Even though he is old, the problem with him is that he is asked to do something he never did before. Hold together the defensive side by himself and as such he get's exposed becuase he's lost a yard of space.(kind of like Matic)

The only way to mitigate that is to pair him with a very energetic high pressing CM. We had Fred last year in this role. This year though it might be one of Mainoo/Hannibal to provide the energy/ball carrying ability.

We've seen him in the Crystal Palace game that he can still offer a lot, even in the build up phase as long as he has someone else doing the running. The problem is ETH willing to go with 2 8's in Mount/Bruno which complicates things.

If we were to go to a 4-2-3-1 with Casemiro/Mainoo/Mejbri in the double pivot, I imagine his performances would improve dramatically.

 

[Sky1981]

Come on mate, he is a Madrid reject the same way David Beckham was when we sold him.

Even though he is old, the problem with him is that he is asked to do something he never did before. Hold together the defensive side by himself and as such he get's exposed becuase he's lost a yard of space.(kind of like Matic)

The only way to mitigate that is to pair him with a very energetic high pressing CM. We had Fred last year in this role. This year though it might be one of Mainoo/Hannibal to provide the energy/ball carrying ability.

We've seen him in the Crystal Palace game that he can still offer a lot, even in the build up phase as long as he has someone else doing the running. The problem is ETH willing to go with 2 8's in Mount/Bruno which complicates things.

If we were to go to a 4-2-3-1 with Casemiro/Mainoo/Mejbri in the double pivot, I imagine his performances would improve dramatically.

There's nothing wrong with being Madrid's reject. They are still top 3 teams in the world and looking at where we are we cant compete head to head with Madrid allure.

And we're banking too much on Kobie, he's just a trainee he has so much to prove when even Amrabat fails to make a grand improvement on the team

And... If Casemiro needs the tactics to suit him, 2 able body to play to his weakness, it further reinforces my point that he's past it and more of a net negative for the team with all his shortcomings

 

[ArmaDino]

There's nothing wrong with being Madrid's reject. They are still top 3 teams in the world and looking at where we are we cant compete head to head with Madrid allure.

And we're banking too much on Kobie, he's just a trainee he has so much to prove when even Amrabat fails to make a grand improvement on the team

And... If Casemiro needs the tactics to suit him, 2 able body to play to his weakness, it further reinforces my point that he's past it and more of a net negative for the team with all his shortcomings

Oh no, I'm not saying that he is like Pogba, in the sense that he needs some miracle X Factor player to unleash him. Far from it.

Our problem is that our entire set up is flawed and we leave him exposed far too often. We also expect him to play like prime Makelele or Kante, when in reality he never played like that during his prime. If anything, he is more like Roy Keane, but the sad reality is that he doesn't have the equivalent of Paul Scholes next to him.

Case is a very aggressive DM that relies on positioning, timing and reading the game to be effective. He needs a very energetic partner for the moments he get's bypassed or he overcommits to a tackle in an attempt to win the ball.

Matic was a less mobile version of him though, and just like Case, he relied on a midfield partner that was very energetic and good at recycling possession. In his case that was Herrera. It's not a coincidence that once Herrera left, everyone thought he was finished. Also not a coincidence that once Herrera got injured, Ole's winning run came to a halt in his interim stint. The balance of the midfield was off. Pogba good passer, but no energy. And Fred, lots of energy, but sloppy on the ball, hence would put unnecessary pressure on both Matic and Case when he was playing.

The reason I am excited right now is because we have a Herrera regen in Hannibal. He is very combative, energetic and good in possession. We've got a glimpse of how we could look during that EFL Crystal Palace match. It was also in that match that Case had arguably the best performance in our shirt.

I only hope ETH realizes this sooner rather than later, because as of right now, nobody in that midfield of ours is being played to their strengths.

 

[redcucumber]

This went round and round for ages at the time. It wasn’t obvious because dozens of people disagreed. It was a huge melee with all sorts going on and when you watch the whole clip Case is clearly not being aggressive and as loads of people said at the time, the two players are fine about it. It is a classic case of some jobsworth ignoring context, and using one incriminating angle to justify picking out one random guy from the ruck and sending him off. It was totally unnecessary and against the spirit of the game. So you can stick your obvious red card somewhere dark.

Christ. I know people on the internet are getting increasingly upset over the smallest things, but this made me laugh. It's going some to get hostile over an incident on a football pitch that happened months ago, during a previous season which has zero bearing on anything right now. Ho hum.

 

[RuudTom83]

I'd like to see Casemiro rested for the Sheffield United game after travelling back from internationals...keep him fresh for Kobenhavn.

 

[RedUnited86]

Arguably our best player last season.
This season thus far bloody hell he has got to be the most frustrating player to watch.

Maybe it's because of his role change this season? which is more of a box to box player... He's definitely roaming forward a lot more these days.

Sometimes he has been good, other times he has been absolute dogshit!

No chance.

8 games missed through suspension alone, and a very poor second half of the season (at least from the cup final). He had some stellar performances, but not our best consistently.

 

[VP89]

The simple diagnosis is that Case cannot go twice at 90+ a week now. Just play him less and we’ll get a lot more out of him.

I agree. Hes also a player always invested in the team so I feel like he tries to do stupid things to force games and make a difference, but collapses in them at times.

 

[MadDogg]

The funny thing is Matic gave us a good few years and we felt it immediately when he left. He’s loved in Roma. Whilst you can’t build around older players, saying no 30+ year olds is a bit “fifa logic”.

Not really. I always find it strange how well Matic is remembered when compared to his actual performances. People were already talking about him being physically finished towards the end of his first season.

In his first season of 17/18 he was really good for the first half then struggled in the second as his performances basically got worse and worse every month. Then in 18/19 he was unbelievably bad for the first few months until Mourinho was fired (the only thing stopping him being clearly our worst player was that Lukaku was somehow even worse), then had a good couple of months after Ole took over but dropped back off. 19/20 he struggled badly until after the Covid lockdown, after which he was good for a month or two before again struggling later on. Then in his last two seasons he'd have the occasional good few matches but the majority of the time he really struggled.

So basically his first season was by far his best, and even then he was only good for half of it. After that he was poor the majority of the time with just the odd month or two each season of good performances. So the comparison to Casemiro is absolutely perfect at the moment who so far can be described identically, albeit we are still only early on in his second season so we can hope he turns it around.

 

[MadDogg]

No chance.

8 games missed through suspension alone, and a very poor second half of the season (at least from the cup final). He had some stellar performances, but not our best consistently.

I'd say he was clearly our most important player, but not our best. In saying that, he was still one of our best as his up and down season could be said for all of our players. Martinez and Rashford were probably the other two players that could be rated ahead of him, and both of them had periods of greatness and periods where they struggled as well. Nobody was good consistently.

 

[Ali Dia]

It seems now in hindsight someone like Rice or Caciedo (at that age) would have been a much smarter investment. We are going to be looking for his replacement next summer.

 

[dubplate warrior]

There's nothing wrong with being Madrid's reject. They are still top 3 teams in the world and looking at where we are we cant compete head to head with Madrid allure.

And we're banking too much on Kobie, he's just a trainee he has so much to prove when even Amrabat fails to make a grand improvement on the team

And... If Casemiro needs the tactics to suit him, 2 able body to play to his weakness, it further reinforces my point that he's past it and more of a net negative for the team with all his shortcomings

It's difficult being a reject when the club doesn't want you to go.

 

[arthurka]

It seems now in hindsight someone like Rice or Caciedo (at that age) would have been a much smarter investment. We are going to be looking for his replacement next summer.

We should've done that this summer.

 

[tomaldinho1]

It seems now in hindsight someone like Rice or Caciedo (at that age) would have been a much smarter investment. We are going to be looking for his replacement next summer.

Both too expensive given we were clearly right on the cusp of our spending limit hence the structure of the Amrabat deal.

 

[Ali Dia]

We should've done that this summer.

my main worry when he signed him was that we’d leave him there for the duration of his contract and ignore the position like we did with Matic and the strikers while the opposition got the best young players but he was so good last year that once he started looking energetic on the pitch again I saw the value in the signing, the older player or two to guide the younger ones over the next season or two.

Now I’m back to just thinking we don’t ever seem to plan for any longer than the season in front of us. We are in constant transition anyway so we may as well be bringing in the best young players we can find. Madrid can do it but we can’t seem to? We aren’t going to get much more erratic than we currently are either way so I don’t see the issue beyond poor planning and scouting or the owners possibly not wanting to spend even when there was a good deal to be had. If we were smart we probably could have got both 3 years ago for the same price as Casemiro cost us.

 

[arthurka]

my main worry when he signed him was that we’d leave him there for the duration of his contract and ignore the position like we did with Matic and the strikers while the opposition got the best young players but he was so good last year that once he started looking energetic on the pitch again I saw the value in the signing, the older player or two to guide the younger ones over the next season or two.

Now I’m back to just thinking we don’t ever seem to plan for any longer than the season in front of us. We are in constant transition anyway so we may as well be bringing in the best young players we can find. Madrid can do it but we can’t seem to? We aren’t going to get much more erratic than we currently are either way so I don’t see the issue beyond poor planning and scouting or the owners possibly not wanting to spend even when there was a good deal to be had. If we were smart we probably could have got both 3 years ago for the same price as Casemiro cost us.

It was a typical post Fergie signing. Funny how I think this wasn't a ETH signing he was brought in after we lost the first matches last season. Another name signing that comes here to retire.

 

[OrcaFat]

Christ. I know people on the internet are getting increasingly upset over the smallest things, but this made me laugh. It's going some to get hostile over an incident on a football pitch that happened months ago, during a previous season which has zero bearing on anything right now. Ho hum.

I know. I’m a weirdo sometimes. No harm intended.

 

[redcucumber]

I know. I’m a weirdo sometimes. No harm intended.

No worries. All good.

 

[mintyred]

Not really. I always find it strange how well Matic is remembered when compared to his actual performances. People were already talking about him being physically finished towards the end of his first season.

In his first season of 17/18 he was really good for the first half then struggled in the second as his performances basically got worse and worse every month. Then in 18/19 he was unbelievably bad for the first few months until Mourinho was fired (the only thing stopping him being clearly our worst player was that Lukaku was somehow even worse), then had a good couple of months after Ole took over but dropped back off. 19/20 he struggled badly until after the Covid lockdown, after which he was good for a month or two before again struggling later on. Then in his last two seasons he'd have the occasional good few matches but the majority of the time he really struggled.

So basically his first season was by far his best, and even then he was only good for half of it. After that he was poor the majority of the time with just the odd month or two each season of good performances. So the comparison to Casemiro is absolutely perfect at the moment who so far can be described identically, albeit we are still only early on in his second season so we can hope he turns it around.

This isn't true at all I don't know why you wasted your time writing this.

 

[Revaulx]

This isn't true at all I don't know why you wasted your time writing this.

So tell us what the truth actually was then if it bothers you that much?

I certainly can’t remember things to that level of detail, but have no problem in remembering that Matić was pretty inconsistent and had plenty of dodgy spells. I’m not sure the problem was his age though; he seemed to be yet another signing who needed the right player(s) alongside him to excel. I was never a massive Herrera fan, but he did bring the best out of Matić.

 

[Stadjer]

Another Matic. Another deadwood to clear next season

This is why i against buying 30 and above player during a rebuild. They add minimum while creating 3-4 years of headache of trying to move them on.

Madrid reject. And we lap it up hook line sinker

Robben was a Real Madrid reject. Sneijder was a Real Madrid reject. Odegaard was a Real Madrid reject. Being a Real Madrid reject doesnt mean a player is bad and shouldnt be an option to buy.

 

[MadDogg]

This isn't true at all I don't know why you wasted your time writing this.

What isn't true? I've literally broken down each season, so which one am I wrong about?

Matic gets remembered fondly because he kept his head down, seems like a nice guy, and when he actually was playing well he was pretty much exactly what we needed. But cut through all that and judge him purely on his performances and the majority of the time he simply wasn't good at all.

Like Revaulx said above, I also wouldn't put it down to just his age. The poor midfield balance around him (basically expecting him to do all the defensive work alone) simply made it much harder than it should have been, which combined with some physical decline to cause the issues. I think he would have been much more consistent if we'd played a more balanced midfield (such as Matic-Herrera-Pogba) more often. I'd say the same with Casemiro now, where playing him next to either a partner who does little defensive work (Eriksen) or two much more attacking partners (Mount and Bruno) make the problems worse than they really should be. But in both Matic' and Casemiro's cases, the physical decline definitely was an impact as well.

 

[mintyred]

What isn't true? I've literally broken down each season, so which one am I wrong about?

Matic gets remembered fondly because he kept his head down, seems like a nice guy, and when he actually was playing well he was pretty much exactly what we needed. But cut through all that and judge him purely on his performances and the majority of the time he simply wasn't good at all.

Like Revaulx said above, I also wouldn't put it down to just his age. The poor midfield balance around him (basically expecting him to do all the defensive work alone) simply made it much harder than it should have been, which combined with some physical decline to cause the issues. I think he would have been much more consistent if we'd played a more balanced midfield (such as Matic-Herrera-Pogba) more often. I'd say the same with Casemiro now, where playing him next to either a partner who does little defensive work (Eriksen) or two much more attacking partners (Mount and Bruno) make the problems worse than they really should be. But in both Matic' and Casemiro's cases, the physical decline definitely was an impact as well.

You've literally just made stuff up and given your version of the story, I don't know what else you want from me.

 

[MadDogg]

You've literally just made stuff up and given your version of the story, I don't know what else you want from me.

What did I make up though?

As it was happening pretty much everyone was agreeing that his form dropped off significantly as his first season wore on, that he started the 2nd season terribly, that he struggled until the covid lockdown in his 3rd season, etc. It's just that as time passed people would forget the bad and remember the good. Basically the opposite of what they did with someone like Pogba, who in reality was good far more often than Matic was (at least in his first four seasons before the injuries destroyed him).

 

[always_hoping]

Fernando Diniz [Brazil manager]: “Casemiro asked to come off [against Venezuela] due to a blow to his ankle.”

 

[arthurka]

Fernando Diniz [Brazil manager]: “Casemiro asked to come off [against Venezuela] due to a blow to his ankle.”

He should retire

 

[Red Royal]

He should retire

Altogether or for NT? A blow on the ankle is nothing to do with age. Hope it is minor!!