Having no cover for him is crazy. We know he can’t do 90 minutes and gasses towards the end of games. I have no idea why we didn’t even try to get Ugochukwu as part of the Garnacho deal, 23 million for a solid premier league player.
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Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 21
- Goals
- 3
- Assists
- 1
- Yellow cards
- 7
- Red cards
- 1
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In the latest edition of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood), Imran (@Annihilate Now!) & Jamie (@Vault Dweller) celebrate a fantastic victory as Manchester United won 2-0 in the Derby. They celebrate the changes Carrick has made, discuss our new coaching team and find time to play a Stupid Game. Enjoy!
We do have cover for him. It's Ugarte and he does have more legs than Casemiro and is in fact a better tackler and defender. The thing Ugarte doesn't have and needs to develop quickly is the defensive awareness that Casemiro has honed after years of being a world class player. Ugarte still runs around like a dog off his leash and has a tendency of making our back three nervous. It happened against Brighton the first 5 minutes he seemed discombobulated and the overall team looked shaky. But once he settled down he actually did fine in the last 10-12 minutes along with the rest of the subs.
Ugarte isn’t a holding defensive midfielder, he can be used alongside Casemiro, but not as a replacement. He’s more a Fred than a Casemiro. He won’t ‘learn’ as it’s not his position, nor is it Mainoo’s, hence we have no body as cover. Like I said Ugochukwu would have been a very astute signing, low fee low risk and proven in the league.
Ugarte is a ball winning defensive midfielder mate. He's not a one to one replica of Casemiro. He doesn't have to be for Amorim's system where one midfielder is generally defensively minded, and the other is offensive. Hence Ugarte comes on for Casemiro and Mainoo comes on for Bruno. I'm not saying either of the replacements offer ALL the same qualities. I doubt that's even possible.
It's not weird, it's Erik Ten Hag suicide ball!
ETH playing Mount as a CM. Case closed.
Ugarte is no where near good enough for cover. He is an absolutely horrendous footballer. There’s not many teams in the league where he would be a starter. His overall game is horrific and should be moved on in the summer.
Tell us how you really feel about him.
But seriously, I disagree. He's not that bad and there are plenty of teams who would absolutely have him as a first teamer. Some of them even play in the Premiere League.
He's no N'golo Kante, but the guy does put in a good tackle, does a good job with interceptions and is overall our best ball winner on most days. Could he improve in other areas of his game -- sure, but calling his game horrific is a bit strong...
It's not that weird. Simply down to the context.
He has the quality, because he was a great player. But he's also very obviously and predictably declined physically, which was why spending what we did on him at 30 years old was always unbelievably stupid.
That leaves us with a player who looks dogshit if played in a way that places too much pressure on his weak points, or if asked to play too many minutes.
But in the context of this season's reduced fixture load, heavy focus on league games, the adjustments Amorim has spoken about making to accomodate him, and the lacklustre alternatives....
We're getting a crucial 60 min out of him every game.
I would keep him on (significantly) reduced wages if possible. He's still too important to us.
He’s not a holding defensive midfielder, never has been, never will be. I didn’t say he wasn’t a ball winner. He chases the ball, Casemiro anticipates where the ball is going and what areas to move into to intercept. Completely different players.
The sinister side of me is thinking that he's trying to get a new contract or attract new suitors and we've been in this situation with Martial, Shaw, and Rashford before.
He will be gone end of the season no matter what. Ineos aren’t keeping those wages around as even with a reduction from £350k he would still be wanting £200k per week.
Casemiro is a proven winner and fierce competitor, harsh to compare him to any of those names.
Going to be a huge miss next season and he will be tough to replace. If we get into Europe we will need 2 players in his position
Has been really good in the last few games. Must replace him next season.
Think it’s crucial he’s replaced with PL proven players - too important a part of the pitch to gamble with.
Yep agree on both counts.
Ugarte simply not good enough to ever be considered a regular starter for Manchester or even a squad rotation player . He is just a very limited footballer. Anyway it would be to good to see Casemiro get a one year extension at a reduced wage for next season. Looking forward to our midfield been completely overhauled in the summer anyhow with some top players coming in.Tell us how you really feel about him.
But seriously, I disagree. He's not that bad and there are plenty of teams who would absolutely have him as a first teamer. Some of them even play in the Premiere League.
He's no N'golo Kante, but the guy does put in a good tackle, does a good job with interceptions and is overall our best ball winner on most days. Could he improve in other areas of his game -- sure, but calling his game horrific is a bit strong...
That's kinda of the thing here, Case is the only midfielder we have who can position well. He's not a DM, just a CM who knows the actual role.
Positioning is so damn important.
Completely different for everybody who has the exact same understanding of the term "holding defensive midfielder" as you. Good on you for adding the "holding" because I personally can see where you are going at but lets not act as if thats some industry standard or something.
And for the record - the current iteration of Casemiro is probably not the archetype for such a holder anyways.
I see it coming... A few other 0.02 xG shots that end up in goal due to huge deflections and we'll meet here discussing if 250k for another year of might still be useful since "he can still contribute". edit: same stuff happening in the Shaw thread... infuriating.
I'd agree, plus even in a season where we aren't in europe, he can't play 90 mins, let alone 2 games per week if we get back in. He played well on Saturday, but once he came off the midfield kind of fell apart. Is Amorim overprotecting him, he's been subbed every game he's started this season. I understand if he's on a yellow, then yeah sub him like we did v Liverpool, as he can be a liability in that scenario. But he'd no card v Brighton and was looking very good.
Yeah the previous manager didn't help in that second season but there was definitely a period where he wasn't fit enough and was generally messing about on the pitch. Trying stuff and playing in a way that wasn't serious.
He’s been really good for a lot longer than that. People just haven’t wanted to see it. Now they’re noticing.
Were we ever getting exposed in midfield because he lacked legs or because the centerbacks failed to track their man dropping into midfield.
Yep, you can see when the wide CB's are intense and tight, we win the ball back further up the pitch.
We struggle when the CB's doing follow their man and the opponents have time to turn on the ball.
We saw from Brighton that when the ball is in the opponents build up, both Bruno and Casemiro are told to press high up, Bruno for the 3rd goal was our furthest pressing player. Shaw tracked his man into CM and won the ball.
When this works, Casemiro and Bruno are not exposed and they usually have good games, when it doesn't it makes our midfielders look foolish really.
He is a class act, whose time here threatened to be undermined by a lunatic who didn’t know how to set up a midfield.
He is a fantastic player and if we had used him properly previously, we would be so grateful for his time here.
Hoping he stays fit and continues to smash it this season, and maybe even wants to stay on reduced terms.
He is a fantastic player and if we had used him properly previously, we would be so grateful for his time here.
Hoping he stays fit and continues to smash it this season, and maybe even wants to stay on reduced terms.
Talk of a new contract will be on the cards before xmas, personally I would offer him £150k-£175k and allow a clause that if someone comes along and wants to offer £300k+ in the Jan27 window, he can walk away. This is on the basis of nobody offering him that in the summer. It will all depend on whether he wants to go to Saudi or not I suppose, but I’d keep him around another year.
I think the team downfall after he was subbed was a big wake up call, he’s important to us, as is shaw, amad.
But he was excellent under Ten Hag in his first season too, and he’s pressing just as aggressively in Amorim’s system as he did back then. The real difference, I think, lies in the structure behind him - having three centre-backs provides extra cover when the midfield line is bypassed, which, if we’re being honest, happens fairly often. The biggest change, especially in yesterday’s game, was how brave our centre-backs were in pushing high up the pitch, leaving very few gaps in midfield. By contrast, against Liverpool we sat in a mid-to-low block and played on the counter, which naturally meant there was much less space to cover.
I personally don't think he's been really good for a lot longer but I guess it all comes down to standards and opinions.
Yes, whenever he is taken off the pitch we look like a different team. It's scary.
That stat that we've only conceded 3 goals with him on the pitch, 16 without him, out of the total 19 says a lot. It shows we are so reilant on him, he is the only player in the squad who can do what he does.
We need to get him to sign a new contract 2 year deal with the option of a 3rd. He deserves it. Would be great if he was willing to accept around 275k p/w.
Plus we need to faze him out over the next 2 years, who are we signing to replace him?
World class experienced player!
That stat that we've only conceded 3 goals with him on the pitch, 16 without him, out of the total 19 says a lot. It shows we are so reilant on him, he is the only player in the squad who can do what he does.
We need to get him to sign a new contract 2 year deal with the option of a 3rd. He deserves it. Would be great if he was willing to accept around 275k p/w.
Plus we need to faze him out over the next 2 years, who are we signing to replace him?
World class experienced player!
This isn’t about standards, it’s about not jumping to sweeping generalisations or being a sheep and buying into narratives pushed by others. Read my posts recently on him, he’s playing exactly the same way these last few games as he has been for a long time. You’ve just not recognised it. And then people question why Mainoo doesn’t start, or Ugarte etc. the answer was always there but a lot of people just couldn’t see it.
Let’s not kid ourselves about Casemiro this season. His performances have been… okay. And no, I’m not saying he hasn’t been good - he has - but let’s not get bogged down debating whether it’s just a few games here or there. The fact is, there have been far too many moments where our midfield has been completely outbattled. Sure, it’s not all on Casemiro, but he’s very much part of the picture.
If we want to genuinely compete with the top teams, we should be seeing far more from both Bruno and Casemiro than what we’re currently getting, and that's why I mentioned standards. Right now, Amorim feels the need to sit in a mid-to-low block against stronger opponents because, let’s be honest, he knows these two struggle to match the intensity. A team like Manchester United should be dominating most games. That doesn't happen, and hasn't done in a while.
Despite his solid season it makes zero sense to extend his contract. He is struggling to play once a week for more than 60 minutes, this will only get worse next season
Elite mentality.
Rubbish! Casemiro has been much better than okay. The pick of adjectives ranges between "outstanding" and "good" -- he's been better than good, but without question short of outstanding.
Casemiro can't shield the back three by himself and let's not kid ourselves into thinking that Bruno is either capable of or has any interest in being a shield with Casemiro. Bruno just doesn't have the on-switch in his head in his own third. In the final third, the man is a maestro. The point is, too much falls on Casemiro to protect Maguire, who is slow of foot although gloriously slab of head.
Whether Casemiro has enough in the tank to perform at this level for an entire season is open to question, but so far...so good. Not just okay, but good.
They're both quality players if used in the right way, as is Maguire. I find peoples determination to ditch them pretty infuriating..
Think a lot of it has to do with the massive wages they're on. I'd be happy to keeping both as squad players on significantly reduced wages, though my hopes for that are slim, at least for Casemiro.
Not so much a determination against players but one for positive change. There aren't many players in most countries top leagues that you wouldn't be able to get any tune out of. Somehow. So that we get something out of those 3 isn't some sort of wonder. They were never as bad or terrible as their loudest critics have made it look like. But they are the past and at some point, we have to let players go. I mean, if not when contracts run out, when? Do you really want to make sure they are here when their inevitable downfall comes? Where were Rooney, Rio or Vidic - where were they when they slowed down and weren't up to speed anymore? And they did infinitely more for the club and were infinitely better players than Shaw and Maguire.
Reminder: of the 20 teams in the league, 10 conceded less than we do - which is kind of fortunate since there are 5 teams sitting on 14 goals against. So a goal conceded more and we'd be down to the 5th worst defence. Our xGA is the 7th worst based on Understat values, 4th worst when it comes to fbref. Yet we score from a good header for a good feeling win and a big deflection and suddenly we talk about extending contracts for two CBs and a defensive midfielder... Doesn't seem the most sensible thing to me.
If he'll take a reduced salary on a 12 month rolling contract while we sign other midfielders to be first team players it's a no brainer to keep him. Letting him go in the summer and gambling on new signings could be problematic - remember our Schmidfield overhaul under LVG?