For the outlay he has been disaster of a signing and it beggars belief some actually want to keep him beyond summer .
Casemiro (out)
- Thread starter Samid
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Right now, he's essential to us.
But that doesn't change the fact that he regularly and visibly flags when playing 70+ minutes even with our relatively few fixtures this season. And that's with Amorim having adjusted our approach to pressing to accomodate him. And he's only getting older.
And, contrary to what someone said on the previous page, what he provides in those 70min isn't "world class". Start playing him regularly against top level CL opposition and you'd quickly see the gulf.
If he's anywhere near the starting eleven next season, we'll have botched the summer's recruitment, as there's no higher priority than fixing midfield. And while he'd certainly be nice to have on the bench, the odds on him accepting the drastic reduction in both playing time and wages that would be required to make that worthwhile seem remote.
Just take the opportunity to get his ludicrous contract off the club's books, and move on to players without those obvious limitations.
But that doesn't change the fact that he regularly and visibly flags when playing 70+ minutes even with our relatively few fixtures this season. And that's with Amorim having adjusted our approach to pressing to accomodate him. And he's only getting older.
And, contrary to what someone said on the previous page, what he provides in those 70min isn't "world class". Start playing him regularly against top level CL opposition and you'd quickly see the gulf.
If he's anywhere near the starting eleven next season, we'll have botched the summer's recruitment, as there's no higher priority than fixing midfield. And while he'd certainly be nice to have on the bench, the odds on him accepting the drastic reduction in both playing time and wages that would be required to make that worthwhile seem remote.
Just take the opportunity to get his ludicrous contract off the club's books, and move on to players without those obvious limitations.
I remember looking at this a while back and my conclusion was that with some of the prize money he helped us get (a CL qualification and sponsor contracts, mostly) and how poorly we spend money, it was a positive move for us. Next 2 big midfield buys were Mount and Ugarte. That's about 120M on far less than Casemiro has given us.
You think we got a return on £130-140m?
Casemiro has been one of the few sources of joy in our football since his arrival. I love the player. It would of course be wise to seek out a younger version but I think having Cas in the team has been an overall benefit.
Will be on that hill with you, as it won't be as popular an opinion.
He’s been good for us but boy wouldn’t it have been just better to spend that extra £30m or so and tried to entice Rice when still at West Ham, and actually have a player to build around longer term.
Agree with every word. He pops up with important goals so he appears important but he’s a big part of the reason we can’t control the midfield.
Maybe he wanted to stay in London
Not keeping Casemiro means losing a player for free. Unlike last summer we may hope to get some scrumb selling him to Saudi. This coming summer with Sancho, Rashford off the book, saving one year of Casemiro wage is not as priority if we have European football. The squad depth is thin. Casemiro wage unlikely is enough to cover for the purchase of midfield cover. Having an experienced player that can perform for the odd game, odd cameo is useful. See Maguire for the last two seasons. It’s not like Casemiro is the bad apple, whom is causing issue for the team when not having adequate playing time.
There are many positions to fill in this squad rebuilding. Making the same mistake like this past summer would leave a gap in the squad without money to replace them. Midfield is top priority doesn’t mean a left wing attacker, a back up capable forward, upgrades in the defense is not urgent matter if we have more games next season.
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Casemiro for his faults and his age is by far and away the best midfielder we currently have at the club. Probably the second best post Fergie midfielder after Pogba but also playing in a flawed midfield. Fergie used to be able to start O Shea, Neville or Park and get worldies out of them. We dont seem to be able to identify and assemble a really top midfield. It's been another of the clubs blind spots. Our two major midfield signings have clearly been good players but then we also expect them to do everything and they inevitably fall short of that
It wasn't because we have only made Champions league once during his time here and crashed out in group stage even then and just because we have wasted money on the others doesn't mean Casemiro hasn't been colossal waste of resources either .
Completely agree. Some people miss the actual issue here I think - of course Casemiro, even at his current state, can still be of use. With a team set up around him in a specific way. But is he worth such a hussle? Thats the question we have to ask ourselves. It is the exact same issue with Maguire - people want to stick with them because "they can still contribute" but they miss that for them to contribute, the team has to play significantly different, than how it should play with players that are physically up to scratch. Also, experience at this point is vastly overrated for where we are as a club. Experience is important for competing for titles but we don't do that. The main objective these days should be to create an environment, where the next "spine" of the team is able to emerge from this group of players - potentially consisting of Lammens, Yoro, Heaven, Mainoo, Amad and Sesko. Those are players worth investing time and energy into because they have the future ahead of them. Both older players I mentioned have shown good professionalism, no doubt, but they also don't have much to teach young players since you can't teach being very tall and heavy to win headers or to be determined. They have to leave to make sure, the next manager won't just opt for experience over youth due to "less risky" and they have to be replaced with players that are physically up to scratch and at least have the potential to have a role in a United team going forward.
If we’re not in Europe next season, let him go. If we are, we do need numbers to eat up minutes.
If we’re in the Europa next season, I’d just chuck him the armband every Thursday and ask him to lead out the second string.
If we’re in the Europa next season, I’d just chuck him the armband every Thursday and ask him to lead out the second string.
Agree with both of you.
We all know his shortcomings at this stage of his career and yet he’s still had far more good games than bad to my eyes.
Outside of the chat on his tactical deployment, he’s one of the few in the team who actually takes responsibility and tries to make an impact on the game.
Of course it doesn’t always come off as he’s not a final third number 10, yet still, he’s often trying through balls, clips around the corner, late runs and the aerial presence of course.
Has he been a roaring success? No
Has he tried his absolute best? Yes
Has he had more good games than bad? Yes
Has he been key in some big moments? Yes
Have our failures been largely down to him? No way
Personally, if he was comfortable earning less money and a reduced role then I’d have him next season. Massive assumption here that we actually address midfield properly next summer - and lord knows we have little evidence that our execs are capable of that so there’s also a world where we need Casemiro again.
Clearly was the wrong signing, all things considered. Fact is, we just signed him way too late - especially when factoring in the league and the state of our other midfielders. He was a panic signing after those two trashings (or was it just the Brentford trashing - I can’t remember?) early on in the season.
His signing lacked any type of long term vision, and he came with huge wages. I like the player, I like his attitude. He was also one of the best in the world in his position during his prime, but yeah, outside of possibly his first year when he was really good, he’s been a combination of “past it” or “just about good enough” (and even then, I think his good periods were made to look even better because when his replacements came on, they were infinitely shite).
Assuming we shift urgarte, and sign two “starting mids” in the summer, I wouldn’t keep him, instead I’d try and sign someone like Neves on a free instead - unless Casemiro was to cut his salary by 2/3. He’s best off going to Saudi. But no bad feelings towards him. Really like him.
His signing lacked any type of long term vision, and he came with huge wages. I like the player, I like his attitude. He was also one of the best in the world in his position during his prime, but yeah, outside of possibly his first year when he was really good, he’s been a combination of “past it” or “just about good enough” (and even then, I think his good periods were made to look even better because when his replacements came on, they were infinitely shite).
Assuming we shift urgarte, and sign two “starting mids” in the summer, I wouldn’t keep him, instead I’d try and sign someone like Neves on a free instead - unless Casemiro was to cut his salary by 2/3. He’s best off going to Saudi. But no bad feelings towards him. Really like him.
I'm not some big Kant guy, but if every signing we made was equal to value in Casemiro since the new regime came in or since Covid or start at whatever manager you want to start counting at, as long as it's post-Fergie, our return on investment in Casemiro was good enough for us to be a hell of a lot better than we've been.
Also, I think with sponsorships and gate and TV it ended up being well over 100M+ for that one group stage when I added all the numbers up.
We probably would have signed Kalvin Phillips that summer and not Vitinha, or we'd have signed Vitinha and somehow ruined him.
Hell of a lot more return than on our next 2 big midfield signings, even once we get back 20-30M each for Mount and Ugarte or whatever and Casemiro leaves on a free, yeah. That's gonna be 130M+ on less return, right?
I could be wrong about the CL money, I'm not Swiss Ramble, but a lazy AI search agrees with me and I remember someone or me did take a genuine look at one point a while back and post it.
The below replacement output we got (did recoup some loan fees and some wages covered) on guys like Sancho and Antony, who were worse than if we'd done nothing and just played other guys on the team or youth (say not loaning Amad and playing Pereira or Garner as a Carillero/shuttler/Matuidi type side midfielder) was far more damaging than buying Casemiro and him being very good for a bit then bad then okay again, assuming we would have eventually spent the money.
You could argue that there's little correlation between United transfer spend and the club making or losing money. I don't really feel like I've read enough about that to have a take.
TLDR: Casemiro expensive, did some good stuff. Normal post-Fergie signing, maybe half as expensive, does far less than half as much.
Agreed
For sure, attitude wise he is a great rolemodel that I'd love to keep around for young players to learn from. But FOR SURE not on his wages, not even half of it, probably not even at half of the half of the half of it.
Debatable.
Thats definitely something, he has a knack for. Being switched on in big moments. But this comes at a cost. In games like today, its his environment, he'll sit deep, have his team mates close to each other and he'll be fine. But nobody wants us to play every match like we did today - with 32% possession. And lets face it, there would be enough fans to accept even that if it meant better results but our opponents simply won't allow it.
Thats true. But he is a good example for why this club is struggling - they brought him in, instead of FDJ. Both completely different type of players. He came with a big fee, especially for a player at his age. He is on a ridiculous wage. And he is slowing down for quite some time. There aren't many teams in the PL that afford themselves to play with players in the centre that struggle with mobility. For a reason. Casemiro can still have moments, just like Maguire can. They can even post pretty good performances like they did today. But thats individual moments - and have to make sure, that we don't get overwhelmed - let me rephrase, every fan is of course allowed to be as overwhelmed as they want after a nice watch like today, but it shouldn't influence decisions going forward.
Very fair standpoint, I don't share it but I can see why one would go down that route.
I would not be against one year extension. As a sub of course if he's ok with that. Especially when Ugarte might be leaving.
I’m not against Casemiro staying BUT not on the contract he’s on, if he won’t agree to new terms on a much lower wage then we let him go.
Feeling sentimental towards him today, so one or two more seasons on a lower wage and reduced dependency, and then a coaching role if he fancies calling it a day?
Seems like a great character to have around, and his family have been reported to be very settled in Manchester
Seems like a great character to have around, and his family have been reported to be very settled in Manchester
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I agree to an extent, however, he seems like a player that needs to be playing consistently to keep up his fitness and sharpness so playing more of a bit part role and not starting every week might not suit him as a player. I'm open to it if his wages are reduced to max 150k but there's still some risk attached.
We need to keep him next season and lower his wages if we can. Even if we invest in our midfield, we still need squad depth and he’s our only midfielder who can progress the ball. He does have his weaknesses but he’s our best midfielder at the moment.
This thought crossed my mind today as well. I think he is an amazing character.
Love the passion he has despite winning everything 5 times over with Real Madrid.
Love this
We can't keep paying him what he's on right now, but I'd absolutely keep him for a year or two if he'll take a big pay cut.
Clearly we'll buy at least one new CM in the summer, but having to displace Casemiro is the sort of competition we need at the club.
Brilliant player. We should keep him for another season, no doubt.
He is on 350k a week, anyone offering him a new contract needs their head checked.
I wouldnt be against it offering him a new 1 year contract on much lower wages, offload Ugarte and get a top midfielder in. Let him go next year and bring in another one in then.
Wouldn't be against a 1 year deal on the understanding that there'll be a wage cut and he'll be more of a squad player especially if we end up in Europe.
I think the idea would be that we offer him a new contract, but on wages that would reflect his current ability. Don think anyone thinks it’s a good idea to offer him the same terms again.
Given his experience, and the lack of experience winning trophies in our squad, if he would agree to more reasonable wages, he’s a must keep. But whether he’d be happy to stay around for ~£130k-£150k a week is a completely different story.
I hope he's ready for pay cut because it would be good to extend him for one more year. Yeah he'll turn 34 soon but is quality player and can still contribute, like Maguire who is year younger.
Not sure you've quite understood how contract negotiations work here.
He is never worth 150k a week. And i doubt that he will even accept that when he can get 250k at a Saudi club.
Please enlighten me how will you convince someone like Casemiro who only came for the money here to continue play for 100k a week when he can get triple of that playing somewhere else. And I don’t think he will be worth 100k a week to us next January. He will continue declining like he has from the moment he signed.
Hyperbole. He was top class in his first year, but was badly exposed in his second year in ETH’s system, which was suicidal for a midfielder like him. This year has been very good again.
I’ve got massive admiration for him. It would be easy for a player like him, who’s won it all, to down tools with how poor we’ve been over the last 18 months. After winning everything, he could just show up and pick up a pay cheque, but instead he shows genuine care for the club.
And while he has moments of madness that have you pulling your hair out, he’s conducted himself like a top-class professional unlike a vast amount of the unsavoury individuals we’ve signed, as well as some of the academy products we’ve produced.
Hard to justify the money spent on him but I’d say as a signing other than that he’s been a success. Think there are some intangibles with him too, it’s already been discussed his level of effort and commitment, but he was also a signing that was seen as being beyond us in our current state and we still had the clout to make it. I would imagine he’s also seen as a positive for other players wanting to join us or on the fence too. His profile definitely contributes towards raising the profile of the club currently, aside from Bruno we have no other world superstars.
Completely agree. His first 6 months was the best defensive midfielder we’ve had since Keane.
I’d happily keep him on a 1+1 on reduced terms, possibly with some chunky incentives based on appearances and CL qualification. As I’ve said previously, if we’re in Europe we need a squad. We currently have zero depth and we can’t sign 10 in a single summer. We’ve seen how much the likes of Villa and Newcastle have struggled juggling Champions League and if it’s Europa/Conference League next term, he can captain a rotated side.
He’s currently our best midfielder and has incredible experience which will be invaluable to our younger players. I think most fans would be happy to offer him another year at 150k per week. You clearly wouldn’t and that’s fine.
As for him not accepting, again, that’s fine. If we value him at around 150k per week and offer that but he chooses to go elsewhere, well then, fine. We explore other avenues.