Castles: Inside story on Man Utd battle between Mourinho and Woodward

[ZenMaster Coltrane]

Doubtful. He’s still in charge of one of the most successful sports clubs on the planet. If, and when, our football starts to match our commercial and financial firepower, I hardly think will be calling him a joke.

His football IQ is a joke. The end.

 

[0161_UNITED]

We have a much better squad than our fans seem to think. It is not as good as City's but is as good as anyone else in the league and with plenty of room for improvement.

Some small changes in the team could bring about a huge change in our dynamic. Maybe Fred, Shaw, Rashford/Martial and Pereira can help with that.

Absolutely, there’s certainly untapped potential within this team. Just raising the white flag and crowning City Champions when barely a ball has been kickedin anger is premature. Hard to look past City as favourites, but wouldn’t it be sweet if we pipped them to the title?

 

[steffyr2]

Doesn't matter how many journos write this up in different words with the same message, the picture is still that Woodward made good calls.

Can't deal with Levy, because he'd demand a ridiculous fee or Martial, and we can't let Martial go to another Prem club. Can also sign Alderweireld for free. Can't sign Maguire because Leicester would not have let him go for less than the VVD fee, which is a joke for a player of Maguire's quality. Can't sign Boateng because it's another case of Bayern trying to flog us busted flushes. Try for Godin, try for Varane.

Beyond those names, there aren't that many centre backs around that fit the profile. Lots of potential out there, but we signed enough potential with Bailly and Lindelof.

Another who's ready to throw this season away, and go for that long term plan!

Players think short term because their careers don't last that long, how do you think they'll feel? It's not just Mourinho.

 

[0161_UNITED]

His football IQ is a joke. The end.

This post is joke. The end.

 

[hobbers]

Another who's ready to throw this season away, and go for that long term plan!

Players think short term because their careers don't last that long, how do you think they'll feel? It's not just Mourinho.

So we sign Maguire, who's barely an upgrade on Jones or Smalling. For £75m. Or we sign Boateng and he spends half the season in the medical center...

Or hey, let's send Levy Martial and some money for Alderweireld. When his contract will be up in 12 months. Genius.

Short termism is great.

 

[Kearnkoff69]

Can I make a suggestion for the Caf? Its specifically in relation to these kinds of articles. Can we make a 'Great Articles/Great Read' thread in the United forum. A thread dedicated to really good reads in the press. Every now and again there's a few but the like of this one gets us nowhere. I'd start the thread myself but don't have an example to hand of what I mean...

This is a great idea - I agree that articles like this get us nowhere. People complained the whole window about how shite it was, had an epic meltdown in the last week of the window, then had another epic meltdown after the window closed. There was so much negativity created from very little. Articles like this just perpetuate that negativity and give people an excuse to continue to spew vitriol about either side involved (Jose v. Board/Woodward). It's like complaining that your cat's litter box smells like shite, then moving the litter box into your room so you can sleep in the smell. It's unhealthy and self-defeating.

 

[0161_UNITED]

Another who's ready to throw this season away, and go for that long term plan!

Players think short term because their careers don't last that long, how do you think they'll feel? It's not just Mourinho.

As far as I know, that poster didn’t say anything about throwing the season away. Bit of a jump in logic to assume that sensibly not being mugged in the market equates to giving up and not wanting to challenge.

 

[steffyr2]

So we sign Maguire, who's barely an upgrade on Jones or Smalling. For £75m. Or we sign Boateng and he spends half the season in the medical center...

Or hey, let's send Levy Martial and some money for Alderweireld. When his contract will be up in 12 months. Genius.

Short termism is great.

So Mourinho had plans for this season, and he put in his request for a range of players in April/May to implement those plans. What amount of money would you be willing to spend so that he could implement his plans for this season, not some other future season when by some magic prices are reduced?
If it's not £75m, what amount?

And why wasn't this conversation had by Woodward in April, May, June, July or August rather than 5 minutes before the trading window closed?

 

[Kearnkoff69]

So Mourinho had plans for this season, and he put in his request for a range of players in April/May to implement those plans. What amount of money would you be willing to spend so that he could implement his plans for this season, not some other future season when by some magic prices are reduced?
If it's not £75m, what amount?

And why wasn't this conversation had by Woodward in April, May, June, July or August rather than 5 minutes before the trading window closed?

Maybe it was. You assuming it happened "5 minutes before the trading window closed" is pure conjecture. All we know comes from media reports, and it's not like Woodward would brief the press at the start of the window about how he was only willing to spend X number of pounds on players this summer.

 

[Catt]

Woodward must not have heard of Bonucci before, cos he's a top class CB that would have improved us.

It was reported last summer that Bonucci wanted to stay in Italy. He also have a child that is/was ill.

 

[#07]

Glazer's target being fourth place is more like a legend created from posters rather than the 'real target'.

Actually it’s not. Woodward informs the investors of the club’s targets and they get reported. The club budgets to finish 3rd and get to the last 8 in the Champions League. Top four is just used as a proxy for that as, in practice, it amounts to the same thing for fans rather than shareholders.

 

[Revan]

Actually it’s not. Woodward informs the investors of the club’s targets and they get reported. The club budgets to finish 3rd and get to the last 8 in the Champions League. Top four is just used as a proxy for that as, in practice, it amounts to the same thing for fans rather than shareholders.

3rd place was always the financial target, even under Fergie. There is hardly much difference between finishing 1st and 3rd when it comes to annual revenue.

 

[steffyr2]

Maybe it was. You assuming it happened "5 minutes before the trading window closed" is pure conjecture. All we know comes from media reports, and it's not like Woodward would brief the press at the start of the window about how he was only willing to spend X number of pounds on players this summer.

Why not? He's doing lots of talking at the end of the season...........certainly he might have mentioned it to Mourinho if he wasn't willing to spend on Mourinho's targets.

 

[Bastian]

I was hoping this "inside" story would explain that Jose wasn't just looking to sign a commanding centre back, but actually 3 players all of whom would walk into the first XI. Unfortunately, the narrative has been narrowed into one measly extra player when of course we are lacking quality and balance in a few positions and it was reported early on that we were after a left back, right sided attacker and the experienced centre back. Even a backup striker option.

Neville referred to the list being given to Edward Woodward as weeks before the deadline, when of course it was months ago and Castles says here was months before the season ended. Seem to recall that this has been reported as being as early as March.

 

[Kearnkoff69]

Why not? He's doing lots of talking at the end of the season...........certainly he might have mentioned it to Mourinho if he wasn't willing to spend on Mourinho's targets.

Why not? Think about it, mate. Woodward isn't going to go to the press and say "yeah so this summer we've got X amount to spend and we're interested in X, Y, and Z players, but we won't pay over X amount for them." Showing your hand is a terrible negotiating tactic and completely destroys any leverage you might have when attempting to drive prices down for those players that you don't want to pay over the odds for.

Again, I ask, how do you know he didn't have a conversation with Mourinho about his dealings in the transfer market? How do you know he didn't mention that prices were ridiculous but he was working on multiple targets, etc.? As I said, your moaning is based on pure conjecture.

 

[yumtum]

It was reported last summer that Bonucci wanted to stay in Italy. He also have a child that is/was ill.

Ah, fair enough then!

 

[#07]

3rd place was always the financial target, even under Fergie. There is hardly much difference between finishing 1st and 3rd when it comes to annual revenue.

Yeah and if Mourinho was here for 10 years and hit the financial target without winning anything do you think the Glazers would care? Woodward already told the last investors call that on field performance doesn’t affect the bottom line.

The Glazers aren’t fans. Hence why I am surprised by Castles implying the board cares about targets in addition to the ones that feed the Glazer dividends.

 

[Revan]

Yeah and if Mourinho was here for 10 years and hit the financial target without winning anything do you think the Glazers would care? Woodward already told the last investors call that on field performance doesn’t affect the bottom line.

The Glazers aren’t fans. Hence why I am surprised by Castles implying the board cares about targets in addition to the ones that feed the Glazer dividends.

Glazers aren't fans, but United doing well on pitch means more fans, which in long term means more revenue and most importantly, a higher value for shares. Stocks and shares are what Glazers care, considering that United is by far their biggest fortune.

 

[0161_UNITED]

This is a great idea - I agree that articles like this get us nowhere. People complained the whole window about how shite it was, had an epic meltdown in the last week of the window, then had another epic meltdown after the window closed. There was so much negativity created from very little. Articles like this just perpetuate that negativity and give people an excuse to continue to spew vitriol about either side involved (Jose v. Board/Woodward). It's like complaining that your cat's litter box smells like shite, then moving the litter box into your room so you can sleep in the smell. It's unhealthy and self-defeating.

It has nothing to do with the articles themselves, the problem is the Caf, not the articles.

There have been raging debates post-SAF about our managers, and for some odd reason some people seem to take more joy from a manager sacking than the success of the team.

You have to counter this with a more purist approach, namely that the style of football which represents Manchester United. This preceded SAF. I count myself in this camp, I value the style of attacking football which defines United, but I won’t go overboard. I may not love Jose’s football at times, and I loathed it against Sevilla. But calling for his head and hoping we might not be successful is heresy, for me.

Finally you’ve got the whole:
FM/FIFA Muppet crowd
The City/Liverpool/Pep/Klopp fawners
The Martial fanclub

But it’s really these Pro-Mourinho / Anti-Mourinho factions that pervade everything on here.

Pro-Mourinho: Didn’t get backed in the market, Woodward and the Glazers are evil, Willian would’ve made a difference, players are crap, sell Martial, sell Pogba, no other manager options...

Anti-Mourinho: Every match is crap (not true), only parks the bus, board is right not to back him, shouldn’t moan to the media, demotivates players, wants to sell Martial who will be the best player in the world at Spurs, made Pogba want to leave, can’t develop young players...

Everyday, every thread, rinse, repeat.

 

[steffyr2]

Why not? Think about it, mate. Woodward isn't going to go to the press and say "yeah so this summer we've got X amount to spend and we're interested in X, Y, and Z players, but we won't pay over X amount for them." Showing your hand is a terrible negotiating tactic and completely destroys any leverage you might have when attempting to drive prices down for those players that you don't want to pay over the odds for.

That's what he just did for next season.

Again, I ask, how do you know he didn't have a conversation with Mourinho about his dealings in the transfer market? How do you know he didn't mention that prices were ridiculous but he was working on multiple targets, etc.? As I said, your moaning is based on pure conjecture.

Because Mourinho was certain right up to the last day that the new player was coming.

 

[Kearnkoff69]

That's what he just did for next season.

But he didn't want to do that this year so as to completely screw his chances of negotiating better deals for the players Mou wanted. Next season is next season. There may be better value in the market, there may not. But at least there's a chance that the market changes for the better, or players are available within our parameters for more reasonable prices.

Because Mourinho was certain right up to the last day that the new player was coming.

Was he? How do you know that? Because of his pressers? Have you considered the possibility that Mourinho, master of manipulation through the press, was "certain" because he was trying to force Woodward's hand? By saying "I will get one for sure" maybe he knew that Woodward was dilly dallying and he wanted to raise expectations amongst the fans and the press so that it would force Woody to spend big on one of his targets.

Anyway, you clearly just want something to have a moan about, so I'll leave you be. Just keep in mind that there's two sides to every story. It would do our fanbase well to remember that nothing is black and white and that multiple explanations exist for everything.

 

[Irrational.]

The Albino Creme Egg clearly is running out of ideas for articles. Hope Jose shuts him off.

 

[steffyr2]

But he didn't want to do that this year so as to completely screw his chances of negotiating better deals for the players Mou wanted. Next season is next season. There may be better value in the market, there may not. But at least there's a chance that the market changes for the better, or players are available within our parameters for more reasonable prices.[/b]
If the market changes for the better, all the teams that have improved this year will improve some more.



Was he? How do you know that? Because of his pressers? Have you considered the possibility that Mourinho, master of manipulation through the press, was "certain" because he was trying to force Woodward's hand? By saying "I will get one for sure" maybe he knew that Woodward was dilly dallying and he wanted to raise expectations amongst the fans and the press so that it would force Woody to spend big on one of his targets.

Anyway, you clearly just want something to have a moan about, so I'll leave you be. Just keep in mind that there's two sides to every story. It would do our fanbase well to remember that nothing is black and white and that multiple explanations exist for everything.

And Ed's press conference didn't say any differently. Just that Ed was jaunting around trying to buy Varane.

I asked this somewhere, don't think I've gotten an answer yet. How do you see player sales/acquisitions going forward from now on?

 

[Minimalist]

Actually it’s not. Woodward informs the investors of the club’s targets and they get reported. The club budgets to finish 3rd and get to the last 8 in the Champions League. Top four is just used as a proxy for that as, in practice, it amounts to the same thing for fans rather than shareholders.

If that's a minimum which I assume it is, there's nothing wrong that (you don't budget for an exact spot do you?). We're hardly the only big club in the league. It's literally what my expectations are for United - we don't have the money of City but we should finish no lower than 3rd every season (otherwise questions should be asked).

That doesn't mean we don't want to win the league.

 

[beedoubleyou]

For some perspective. Mourinho hasn't complained about not getting players and furthermore he made Pogba captain, played and embraced Shaw and name checked Martial post match.

Maybe wait for it all to go South than sit here frothing in anticipation.

 

[Revan]

If that's a minimum which I assume it is, there's nothing wrong that (you don't budget for an exact spot do you?). We're hardly the only big club in the league. It's literally what my expectations are for United - we don't have the money of City but we should finish no lower than 3rd every season (otherwise questions should be asked).

That doesn't mean we don't want to win the league.

Exactly, and it was the same under Gill and Fergie. As long as I can remember, we always budgeted for third and quarters of UCL.

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

Its a bit of both for me.
The owners only seem to spend big when we are not in the CL as top 4 is all theyre bothered with. Also I do feel they're hesitant at present due to this being crunchtime for Jose....think they are half expecting chaos this season and are waiting to see how it pans out. I personally don't think its got anything to do with the age of Joses targets though.

 

[Kearnkoff69]

And Ed's press conference didn't say any differently. Just that Ed was jaunting around trying to buy Varane.

I asked this somewhere, don't think I've gotten an answer yet. How do you see player sales/acquisitions going forward from now on?

You didn't ask me.

 

[steffyr2]

You didn't ask me.

Yes I did. Just now, look ~5 posts above this one.

 

[Kearnkoff69]

Yes I did. Just now, look ~5 posts above this one.

Really? Quote it for me. I looked and I didn't find an instance of you asking me that question. You may have directed it at somebody else before I jumped in.

*Edit: anyhow, this bickering is tiresome. You clearly don't want to have a dialogue, because you keep changing the topic. Go bug somebody else.

 

[Rory 7]

This is a great idea - I agree that articles like this get us nowhere. People complained the whole window about how shite it was, had an epic meltdown in the last week of the window, then had another epic meltdown after the window closed. There was so much negativity created from very little. Articles like this just perpetuate that negativity and give people an excuse to continue to spew vitriol about either side involved (Jose v. Board/Woodward). It's like complaining that your cat's litter box smells like shite, then moving the litter box into your room so you can sleep in the smell. It's unhealthy and self-defeating.

I might attempt a thread if I get a chance.

 

[sincher]

Yes, one of the reason we wound up 2nd last year.

Not easy to fix that though.

 

[MAME DIOUF 32]

I'm Woodward 'til I die
I'm Woodward 'til I die
I know I am
I'm sure I am
I'm Woodward 'til I die

 

[wolvored]

I noticed this too. I would have been happy with cash plus Mata for Alderweireld.

The other notable element of the piece is the hint at its end that Jose’s time could be up. That struck me as odd cos our team is plenty good enough to finish fourth and that’s the Glazers’ target.

The undertone seemed to be that Woodward will blame Jose for his own failures and look to fire him if he doesn’t hit a target Castles doesn’t explain.

How do you know this? Links?

 

[Skills]

Next up

Castles: Inside story on Man Utd battle between Mourinho and Pogba

Followed by:

Castles: Inside story on Man Utd battle between Mourinho and Fred the Red

 

[montpelier]

Adds to the theory that Woodward is a bit of a joke and other clubs may view him as such

That's what I was tending to think as well.

Moving on from there, I read the article not having read any previously really. And it's nothing that sensational even then - that you couldn't try & work out oneself isn't it?

Having said both those things, I've ended up thinking that Woorward might have got this one right for once. If you can't sign anyone obviously better, more overloading with more overpriced of much of the same isn't going to achieve much, (Maguire & Boateng let's say).

 

[elmo]

Doubtful. He’s still in charge of one of the most successful sports clubs on the planet. If, and when, our football starts to match our commercial and financial firepower, I hardly think will be calling him a joke.

He's utter wank at negotiating transfers and that says a lot when he's consistently failing at the only difficult part of his job.

 

[elmo]

How do you know this? Links?

Probably the Adidas jersey sponsorship clause, being out of the Champions league 2 years in a row and the club finances take a huge hit.

 

[elmo]

Why not? Think about it, mate. Woodward isn't going to go to the press and say "yeah so this summer we've got X amount to spend and we're interested in X, Y, and Z players, but we won't pay over X amount for them." Showing your hand is a terrible negotiating tactic and completely destroys any leverage you might have when attempting to drive prices down for those players that you don't want to pay over the odds for.

Again, I ask, how do you know he didn't have a conversation with Mourinho about his dealings in the transfer market? How do you know he didn't mention that prices were ridiculous but he was working on multiple targets, etc.? As I said, your moaning is based on pure conjecture.

But that's exactly what Woodward has done over the years, even his brief to the media was the same.

He's been boasting about how much money we have for transfers and we've been consistently been mugged by clubs and agents because of his actions.

 

[Kearnkoff69]

But that's exactly what Woodward has done over the years, even his brief to the media was the same.

He's been boasting about how much money we have for transfers and we've been consistently been mugged by clubs and agents because of his actions.

Aye, in the beginning of his term he ran his mouth trying to look good and win over fans. It was moronic. Woodward has not always been great, but I really think he's tried to learn from his mistakes. Hence the relative silence this summer.

That being said, I'm not really trying to defend Woodward or his performance here - I came into this thread to try and get people to see that there is always more than one side to every story.