Celtic would be top 6 in the Premier League

In the early 21st century (i.e. around the Martin O'Neill era), I considered Celtic to be the third biggest club in the UK after Utd and Liverpool, and ahead of Arsenal, Rangers and everyone else, with their large global fanbase and 1967 European Cup triumph.

But with more and more money pouring into the Premier League widening the financial gulf with the Scottish league and seeing Celtic tumble down the football rich list, struggling to generate the same shirt sales and sponsorship deals as mid-table Premier League clubs, and ever growing importance and power of social media (I think Celtic lag well behind even smaller Premier League clubs in terms of social media followers), I definitely don't think that is the case any more.

I saw that their 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th most expensive ever signings were made between 1999-2001, and that before they signed Edouard a couple of years ago, their record signings were Sutton and Hartson during the summer of 2000.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
It's not just the Premier League money though, you have to have money from other sources (Matchday revenue, Sponsorships, Shirt Sales etc.) to put you over on the other PL teams.

For example, if say, St Johnstone were put into the English league system, they'd have a much harder time getting promoted/staying in the PL then Celtic or Rangers.
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But the argument was they would be put in premier league, with premier league money/exposure, players, etc. isn't it? (according to the first group of tweets)
what I don't get is, in this argument, what would be their merit, compared with St. Johnstone? their fan base? any team would grew his fanbase if it was put in the premier league... big stadium? infraestructure? or just a matter of club history?

I am genuinely ignorant and curious here, I fail to see what's the reason two teams from what seems to be a non league, are thought to be candidates to finish top 6 in the premier.

Regarding the shirts discussions, Rangers and Celtic shirts would be hard to even get here, I have rarely seen them "live", and the only person I knew who had one (a Celtic's one), had bought it in Scotland. I haven't met anyone who cares about results or league position of Scotish teams.
 
Nope. Spent the last ten years playing literal council estate teams week in, week out. For further proof of how utter garbage they are I present a) Scott Brown and b) any UCL qualifying result during any given season c) any player who struggles to get a a game for a relegated side ends up looking like a world beater for them (Scott Sinclair).

Just look at who they play in Europe and how they fare against mediocre teams.
 
The gap these days is absolutely huge. Back in the Martin ONeill/Dick Advocaat era both teams would definitely have been able to hold their own in the Premier League, albeit mid table. Nowadays, those two would be lucky to win the Championship and would get slaughtered in the Premier League. Yeah having more money would only help, but as the three promoted teams show every season, having PL money and becoming a stable PL side are two very different things.
 
Daonico said:
But the argument was they would be put in premier league, with premier league money/exposure, players, etc. isn't it? (according to the first group of tweets)
what I don't get is, in this argument, what would be their merit, compared with St. Johnstone? their fan base? any team would grew his fanbase if it was put in the premier league... big stadium? infraestructure? or just a matter of club history?

I am genuinely ignorant and curious here, I fail to see what's the reason two teams from what seems to be a non league, are thought to be candidates to finish top 6 in the premier.

Regarding the shirts discussions, Rangers and Celtic shirts would be hard to even get here, I have rarely seen them "live", and the only person I knew who had one (a Celtic's one), had bought it in Scotland. I haven't met anyone who cares about results or league position of Scotish teams.
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Well Celtic/Rangers are just bigger clubs by far. I mean Celtic get 60,000 a week and Rangers get 50,000 a week... that would put them both in the top 7 for PL attendances (that's also their max attendance by the way, if you put more seats in their grounds and put them in the PL they'd get even higher attendances)... where as after that your next highest attendance is Hearts who get about 16,000, which would put them above only Bournemouth - who are no longer in the league anyway.

So take that match day revenue/support combined with their infrastructure/history then yeah, they would really be the only two clubs that could feasibly maintain a Premier League status (due to the additional finances/spending power they would have).

If Celtic/Rangers were a PL side then their shirts would also be more widely available of course... probably to the level of a Newcastle/West Ham/Everton.
 
They have fans and appeal across an entire country (Scotland) that most clubs could only dream of. After an adjustment period, if they joined the English system they would be bought by some rich investor and would be a comfortable Premiership team.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
Well Celtic/Rangers are just bigger clubs by far. I mean Celtic get 60,000 a week and Rangers get 50,000 a week... that would put them both in the top 7 for PL attendances (that's also their max attendance by the way, if you put more seats in their grounds and put them in the PL they'd get even higher attendances)... where as after that your next highest attendance is Hearts who get about 16,000, which would put them above only Bournemouth - who are no longer in the league anyway.

So take that match day revenue/support combined with their infrastructure/history then yeah, they would really be the only two clubs that could feasibly maintain a Premier League status (due to the additional finances/spending power they would have).

If Celtic/Rangers were a PL side then their shirts would also be more widely available of course... probably to the level of a Newcastle/West Ham/Everton.
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ok, I get the idea of the point now, thanks
 
Daonico said:
I don't understand the "with the money from the premier league" argument... I mean, yeah, if the Uruguayan teams were in the premier league, with the money from the premier league, and could attract players from the premier league... they would also be able to have premier league level...
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Exactly. :lol:
 
Daonico said:
But the argument was they would be put in premier league, with premier league money/exposure, players, etc. isn't it? (according to the first group of tweets)
what I don't get is, in this argument, what would be their merit, compared with St. Johnstone? their fan base? any team would grew his fanbase if it was put in the premier league... big stadium? infraestructure? or just a matter of club history?

I am genuinely ignorant and curious here, I fail to see what's the reason two teams from what seems to be a non league, are thought to be candidates to finish top 6 in the premier.

Regarding the shirts discussions, Rangers and Celtic shirts would be hard to even get here, I have rarely seen them "live", and the only person I knew who had one (a Celtic's one), had bought it in Scotland. I haven't met anyone who cares about results or league position of Scotish teams.
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Celtic fans believe that they're one of the biggest and most popular football clubs in the world and as such their entrance into the Premier League would mean that they'd be straight to the top table of European football. The age of social media hasn't proven this perception to be anywhere close to reality, however. They have less than 2 million followers on Facebook, compare that to United who have over 70 million. They are a club of a similar level in status to Newcastle and Aston Villa, both of which have more followers on Facebook. If they were in the PL they'd have a status similar to those sides in the absence of being bought by a sugar daddy or some excellent management on and off-pitch. The idea that they're a top 6 side by rights is just pure fantasy but indicative of the delusion endemic in psyche of the average Celtic fan.
 
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They've lost a lot of fan engagement due to the Scottish league's decline. I remember 20 years ago, when the Old Firm still had strong teams, there were a decent number of Australian people getting around in Celtic shirts, or claiming to support Celtic, who were descended from Irish or Scottish immigrant families with Celtic allegiances. Those sorts of people, here and in other English-speaking countries, probably don't give a shiny shite about Celtic any more.

If Celtic were in the Premier league, those sorts of people would probably take up supporting them properly - although I don't know how many thousand people that would drive the social media numbers up by.

That aside, if they were in the Premier League they'd probably be an appealing option for a good number of the Irish descendants around the world looking for a Premier League team to support.
 
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Classical Mechanic said:
Celtic fans believe that they're one of the biggest and most popular football clubs in the world and as such their entrance into the Premier League would mean that they'd be straight to the top table of European football. The age of social media hasn't proven this perception to be anywhere close to reality, however. They have less than 2 million followers on Facebook, compare that to United who have over 70 million. They are a club of a similar level in status to Newcastle and Aston Villa, both of which have more followers on Facebook. If they were in the PL they'd have a status similar to those sides in the absence of being bought by a sugar daddy or some excellent management on and off-pitch. The idea that they're a top 6 side by rights is just pure fantasy but indicative of the delusion endemic in psyche of the average Celtic fan.
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The thought process of Celtic fans is not they would be top 6 in pl right away, it's that with the added revenue that clubs in pl get from tv, then they could spend more in transfer market, and eventually be competitive in the league. In a piss poor league both clubs get huge crowds, Celtic stadium is only smaller than ours and Spurs if memory serves me correct. re the 2 clubs you mention, Celtic get more than 17k per home game than Villa, and more than 8k than Newcastle. Bums on seats bring in money, not followers on facebook. Both scottish clubs know their appeal, even now in their poor league, you'll find a supporters group in every big city in the likes of the US and Canada. That worldwide appeal doesn't apply to a lot of pl teams. I think Celtic/Rangers fans feel they are big clubs being held back by the financial restraints of the league they play in. There is no doubt that the SPL is weak, and as a result their worldwide appeal, will still present, isn't probably as big as it once was. Games against top PL teams would rejuvenate that fan base. Another big loss of revenue for them is not competing in CL on a regular basis, the Celtic squad isn't strong enough to qualify through the qualifiers each season. Its a vicious circle, they don't have the money to strengthen so don't get the financial windfall qualifying for group stages bring. If they got the PL tv money they could do that.
 
poleglass red said:
The thought process of Celtic fans is not they would be top 6 in pl right away, it's that with the added revenue that clubs in pl get from tv, then they could spend more in transfer market, and eventually be competitive in the league. In a piss poor league both clubs get huge crowds, Celtic stadium is only smaller than ours and Spurs if memory serves me correct. re the 2 clubs you mention, Celtic get more than 17k per home game than Villa, and more than 8k than Newcastle. Bums on seats bring in money, not followers on facebook. Both scottish clubs know their appeal, even now in their poor league, you'll find a supporters group in every big city in the likes of the US and Canada. That worldwide appeal doesn't apply to a lot of pl teams. I think Celtic/Rangers fans feel they are big clubs being held back by the financial restraints of the league they play in. There is no doubt that the SPL is weak, and as a result their worldwide appeal, will still present, isn't probably as big as it once was. Games against top PL teams would rejuvenate that fan base. Another big loss of revenue for them is not competing in CL on a regular basis, the Celtic squad isn't strong enough to qualify through the qualifiers each season. Its a vicious circle, they don't have the money to strengthen so don't get the financial windfall qualifying for group stages bring. If they got the PL tv money they could do that.
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Do they face bigger, better squads in the qualifiers? They've gone out to AEK Athens, Cluj and Ferencvraros
 
poleglass red said:
The thought process of Celtic fans is not they would be top 6 in pl right away, it's that with the added revenue that clubs in pl get from tv, then they could spend more in transfer market, and eventually be competitive in the league. In a piss poor league both clubs get huge crowds, Celtic stadium is only smaller than ours and Spurs if memory serves me correct. re the 2 clubs you mention, Celtic get more than 17k per home game than Villa, and more than 8k than Newcastle. Bums on seats bring in money, not followers on facebook. Both scottish clubs know their appeal, even now in their poor league, you'll find a supporters group in every big city in the likes of the US and Canada. That worldwide appeal doesn't apply to a lot of pl teams. I think Celtic/Rangers fans feel they are big clubs being held back by the financial restraints of the league they play in. There is no doubt that the SPL is weak, and as a result their worldwide appeal, will still present, isn't probably as big as it once was. Games against top PL teams would rejuvenate that fan base. Another big loss of revenue for them is not competing in CL on a regular basis, the Celtic squad isn't strong enough to qualify through the qualifiers each season. Its a vicious circle, they don't have the money to strengthen so don't get the financial windfall qualifying for group stages bring. If they got the PL tv money they could do that.
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I know what their logic is. Aston Villa and Newcastle prove that even with large support and a billionaire owner you can still end up fighting relegation or even getting relegated in English football. Arsenal have billionaire owners, a bigger stadium than Celtic and the most expensive tickets in world football but finished 8th in the league this season. United have the biggest stadium in the country and are one of the richest clubs in the world but have struggled to qualify for the Champions league in recent seasons. Spurs now have a bigger stadium than Celtic. That’s before you count the immensely rich Chelsea and that club owned by the richest family in the world. The idea that Celtic could come in and join the big 6 with a bit of TV money is fantasy

The conversation is academic now though, there’s no serious conversation about the Scottish clubs joining the PL anymore.
 
They’d challenge top 6 if the revenue they got was reinvested into the club properly. They’re both huge clubs with worldwide following which would only stratospherically.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
I know what their logic is. Aston Villa and Newcastle prove that even with large support and a billionaire owner you can still end up fighting relegation or even getting relegated in English football. Arsenal have billionaire owners, a bigger stadium than Celtic and the most expensive tickets in world football but finished 8th in the league this season. United have the biggest stadium in the country and are one of the richest clubs in the world but have struggled to qualify for the Champions league in recent seasons. Spurs now have a bigger stadium than Celtic. That’s before you count the immensely rich Chelsea and that club owned by the richest family in the world. The idea that Celtic could come in and join the big 6 with a bit of TV money is fantasy

The conversation is academic now though, there’s no serious conversation about the Scottish clubs joining the PL anymore.
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Arsenal don't have a bigger stadium, Celtic's is marginally larger so say the same for arguments sake. You can quote Newcastle and Villa but on the other end of the spectrum you have Leicester, Wolves, sheff utd and Burnley all in the top half. None of those clubs are super rich in the grand scheme of things, but still light yrs ahead of Celtic in tv money, but nonetheless well managed. It's not unreasonable with a good management team in place that Celtic couldn't replicate those teams after a few seasons in pl. It wouldn't be an overnight process, and most reasonable celtic fans recognise that.
 
MaxiPaxi said:
They’d challenge top 6 if the revenue they got was reinvested into the club properly. They’re both huge clubs with worldwide following which would only stratospherically.
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They really don’t have worldwide following though, where did you get that from? Their following on a place like Instagram is like 10% of bloody Leicester and it’s not like they are a huge club with worldwide following. Celtic and Rangers are small clubs on a European scale and the only thing making them historic is the old Catholic vs. Protestant-war that’s now obsolete in this day and age. Some will probably counter by saying Celtic won the Champions League one million years ago, so did Red Star Belgrade and Steaua Bucurest afterwards.
 
I live in Scotland and the utter delusion by their fanbase is outstanding. They’d struggle to stay in the division.

They fill their stadiums easily because they win every week. Let’s see what would happen when they start losing.

Using social media as a metric, they don’t have anywhere near the global appeal they claim to have either.
 
Celtic and Rangers would have to break their wage structure and understand that what they achieved in Scotland and Europe goes straight out the window if they're part of the PL. Also, they have to have a really strong value proposition to attract quality players in living and playing in Scotland. Whether people want to admit it or not, players from specific nations do not want to play in the UK unless it's a London type city because they are so used to living in a vibrant or fun city where there's a lot of culture and people of similar interests/background/language.

To that, they'll probably destroy the domestic football pyramid in Scotland...but one would think the best Scottish players would want to play for Celtic or Rangers and stay at home, which would probably be a benefit to the national team. But even then, Tierney left for Arsenal. Robertson plays for Liverpool and don't even know any other good Scottish player.
 
Celtic and Rangers would easily get in the top 10 in the 90's. Now they are a championship sides at best, they would struggle to get out of the relegation zone if they were threw in. Home advantage is one thing but having shit players is another. A magic wand wouldn't be waved overnight, take years in the top division to get the revenue needed. There is a platform to build but it would take decades. Celtic especially should have left when Rangers went bust. They could have went up the English divisions, that ship sailed. Sad that the league is so poor now.
 
James Peril said:
They really don’t have worldwide following though, where did you get that from? Their following on a place like Instagram is like 10% of bloody Leicester and it’s not like they are a huge club with worldwide following. Celtic and Rangers are small clubs on a European scale and the only thing making them historic is the old Catholic vs. Protestant-war that’s now obsolete in this day and age. Some will probably counter by saying Celtic won the Champions League one million years ago, so did Red Star Belgrade and Steaua Bucurest afterwards.
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Celtic has supporter clubs in Madrid, Moscow, Melbourne, London and many other places. In Ireland and Northern Ireland pretty much everyone supports or has a preference to Celtic and Rangers. If they were in the premier league, I’d bet there would be a lot of fans who’d have them as their main team. I know a lot of my mates who support United, Liverpool, Chelsea also support Rangers and Celtic. I think all of them would switch to only supporting either or.

Celtic are a small club on a European scale? They were the first British side to win the European Cup. Rangers won the cup winners cup. That’s a hell of a lot more than a lot of English clubs can say. Football didn’t start 10 years ago.

Rangers and Celtic also attracted a far better calibre of player back in the day. What makes you think they wouldn’t again if they were in the PL?
 
MaxiPaxi said:
Celtic has supporter clubs in Madrid, Moscow, Melbourne, London and many other places. In Ireland and Northern Ireland pretty much everyone supports or has a preference to Celtic and Rangers. If they were in the premier league, I’d bet there would be a lot of fans who’d have them as their main team. I know a lot of my mates who support United, Liverpool, Chelsea also support Rangers and Celtic. I think all of them would switch to only supporting either or.

Celtic are a small club on a European scale? They were the first British side to win the European Cup. Rangers won the cup winners cup. That’s a hell of a lot more than a lot of English clubs can say. Football didn’t start 10 years ago.

Rangers and Celtic also attracted a far better calibre of player back in the day. What makes you think they wouldn’t again if they were in the PL?
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This means nothing.

Celtic & Rangers are not big clubs on a European scale.
 
VorZakone said:
This means nothing.

Celtic & Rangers are not big clubs on a European scale.
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Why doesn’t it mean anything? Means something. Means they have and had a global reach for a long long time despite playing in league one level league.
 
People always go on about the Scottish 2.
But there'd be absolute carnage if they were just parachuted into even the championship

Why should they take any place that an English (or welsh!!) club have fought for?
 
Celtic - lower Championship/ top League 1
Rangers- fighting the likes of Bradford Park Avenue for relegation to the Sunday League
 
Bwuk said:
I live in Scotland and the utter delusion by their fanbase is outstanding. They’d struggle to stay in the division.

They fill their stadiums easily because they win every week. Let’s see what would happen when they start losing.

Using social media as a metric, they don’t have anywhere near the global appeal they claim to have either.
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That’s my experience too, although I lived there about 15 years ago when they were half decent. Celtic fans thought they were on the level of United and Real Madrid. They’re bonkers.

@MaxiPaxi

Notts Forest got promoted from the second division and in their first season in the top flight beat one of the greatest club sides of all time (Liverpool late 70s - 80s) to the title and then won back to back European Cups in the next two seasons. It’s arguably the single greatest achievement in the history of club football. Now they reside in the English second tier and no one gives a square cock about what they did 40 years ago except their own fans. The same applies to Celtic’s European Cup win. No one cares except Celtic fans, it means nothing in 2020.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
That’s my experience too, although I lived there about 15 years ago when they were half decent. Celtic fans thought they were on the level of United and Real Madrid. They’re bonkers.

@MaxiPaxi

Notts Forest got promoted from the second division and in their first season in the top flight beat one of the greatest club sides of all time (Liverpool late 70s - 80s) to the title and then won back to back European Cups in the next two seasons. It’s arguably the single greatest achievement in the history of club football. Now they reside in the English second tier and no one gives a square cock about what they did 40 years ago except their own fans. The same applies to Celtic’s European Cup win. No one cares except Celtic fans, it means nothing in 2020.
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It means that they deserve their place in the European stage. You win it for a reason. You have you name engraved on the cup for a reason.

They would challenge top 6 almost certainly if they had the revenue and the potential to get sponsorship deals like top 6 premier league clubs and they consistently reinvested that revenue into their team. Look at Leicester as great example of a well run club in the premier league. Rangers and Celtic do that then they would challenge the big boys for sure.
 
MaxiPaxi said:
It means that they deserve their place in the European stage. You win it for a reason. You have you name engraved on the cup for a reason.

They would challenge top 6 almost certainly if they had the revenue and the potential to get sponsorship deals like top 6 premier league clubs and they consistently reinvested that revenue into their team. Look at Leicester as great example of a well run club in the premier league. Rangers and Celtic do that then they would challenge the big boys for sure.
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You can say that about any club though. Sure if everything went right for them they could win it all, House of Saud buying them or whatever.
 
They buy championship level players and they become key players for them. That speaks volumes for the strength of the squads they have in this modern era.

The historic teams of the past would have faired well for sure but if we compare to now, it’s tragic how far theyve dropped(for them at least), bet John hartson would still make their team.

As for the tv money will make us better nonsense, I think that would be a very slow process indeed. Top players want to live in London, Manchester, Milan, Madrid, want to play for mr x or mr y, join a team with world class training facilities etc.

To think ‘I have £50 mil more so I’ll bid for Kevin De Bruyne’ or whoever and think it’s going to be straightforward or easy and they will definitely come is quite deluded.
 
The potential of a football club is decided by its finances, fans, and outreach. Their finances are poor because they play in a poor league. Their fans are very devoted and give a big attendence. Their outreach potential is fantastic given their Irish roots and historic platform.

The question shouldn't be how they would fare if the were parachuted in now. Obviously they would be relegated or close to it. Better question is how would they fare long-term, and you have to think very well indeed.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
You can say that about any club though. Sure if everything went right for them they could win it all, House of Saud buying them or whatever.
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Yeah I guess you could but they’ve obviously fallen very far and they’d get embarrassed in the pl right now with the squads that they have.
 
MaxiPaxi said:
Celtic has supporter clubs in Madrid, Moscow, Melbourne, London and many other places. In Ireland and Northern Ireland pretty much everyone supports or has a preference to Celtic and Rangers. If they were in the premier league, I’d bet there would be a lot of fans who’d have them as their main team. I know a lot of my mates who support United, Liverpool, Chelsea also support Rangers and Celtic. I think all of them would switch to only supporting either or.

Celtic are a small club on a European scale? They were the first British side to win the European Cup. Rangers won the cup winners cup. That’s a hell of a lot more than a lot of English clubs can say. Football didn’t start 10 years ago.

Rangers and Celtic also attracted a far better calibre of player back in the day. What makes you think they wouldn’t again if they were in the PL?
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There’s a Rangers or Celtic shop at Glasgow or Edinburgh airport that’s boarded up, as there’s no demand. This was pre-Covid.

Nottingham Forest and Derby have both won the European Cup more recently than Celtic. Remind me where they are?
 
Have Celtic, even in the 90s beat a Premiership club to a top transfer?
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
There’s a Rangers or Celtic shop at Glasgow or Edinburgh airport that’s boarded up, as there’s no demand. This was pre-Covid.

Nottingham Forest and Derby have both won the European Cup more recently than Celtic. Remind me where they are?
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And there is a Celtic shop in Beflast that isn’t. Shops close all the time. That’s hardly a barometer to judge how well they’re doing financially. They’ve no players as the Scottish league is dead. They were much better when it wasn’t. Celtic and Rangers beat top European teams regularly and there is no reason they can’t get back to that given the resources of PL clubs.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
Strange comment, who in England is buying a Celtic/ Rangers shirt. Can’t see their sales increasing.
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I meant like outside of England... If they were to be a PL side.

Not saying they'd be widely available, just that that's the level of exposure they'd be at, thus you'd have roughly the same shirt availability.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
There’s a Rangers or Celtic shop at Glasgow or Edinburgh airport that’s boarded up, as there’s no demand. This was pre-Covid.

Nottingham Forest and Derby have both won the European Cup more recently than Celtic. Remind me where they are?
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You mean Villa.
 
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