I've seen Raskin play live a few times and he'd be the pinnacle of utter shite in the EPL. He'd make Djemba-Djemba look like Roy Keane.
Centre Midfielder Transfer Links
- Thread starter luke511
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If INEOS could see past Wharton similar to Kobbie then maybe I could have seen us try to sign him
Not sure the sales pitch of the club is in debt so we can't compete with other clubs when it comes to wages will attract top tier talent...
Unfortunately that's the truth though
How do you progress a ball?
Passing it or dribbling it. Those are literally the only ways. Both of those are recorded stats. Is it a guarantee they're progressing the ball? No, but I don't know of many players that enjoy dribbling towards their own goal regularly for example so it's an fair assumption that if a DM or CM is dribbling the ball they're progressing the ball. That's an inference.
It can also describe a box-to-box midfielder. They run from one box all the way to the other box.... they tackle in one box, score in the other box....
Which was the topic of discussion: Was Tonali one of the best high-energy midfielders in the league and who else is...?
Your man was using chatgpt. I was doing a kindness by offering up some verifiably data-driven examples. I will endeavour not to in the future.
Pass and move. Not every pass has to be some raking 60-yarder out to the wings or a needle-threading through ball, and again, we were specifically discussing high-energy box to box players. If a CDM wins the ball in the opposition third or touches the ball in the opposition area they're pretty high up the pitch for a CDM... almost like you could call them a....
Like I said though, if anyone wants to get me access to the Opta API I'll have their more complete data integrated some time next week.
A player can complete 4 dribbles a game entirely in their own half to escape a press, or sideways along the midfield line, without ever moving the ball closer to the opponent's goal. This is precisely why data sites separate "Dribbles/Take ons" from "progressive carries" which explicitly require moving the ball 10+ yards towards opponents goal.
You don't need to "infer" progression from raw dribbling stats when "progressive carries" is a literal recorded metric that's specifically designed to filter out useless sideways dribbles.
If your midfielder is tackling in one box, and then running to the opponents box without the ball, who is actually transitioning the ball through the 50 yards in between? If they can't do it they aren't a central midfielder.
Your point about Ugarte completely misunderstands how dominant teams play. In 22/23, Sporting CP pinned teams back. As a CDM, Ugarte naturally stepped up into the attacking third to sustain the squeeze and stop counters. Winning a ball high up the pitch because your team has 65% possession does not magically turn a hard-tackling anchor into a box-to-box midfielder.
If you think Ugarte is a high quality box to box centre mid then fine, but people should be aware this is the type of player your filter with elevate when judging others on the list.
I've seen the same arguments for Sancho, Antony, and Baleba last year.
If it works out, great. If it doesn't, we're stuck with less money and a player on huge wage that we have to loan out every season.
Ideally we have other targets in mind when we walk away. That's what the scouting department is for.
I’m already very pessimistic of our chances already unfortunately. Summer has not started well, albeit still early days. We won’t know the full details but I’m not even sure we were planning for the possibility of missing out on Fernandes.
I fear we go into the season with Ederson and Scott, and maybe Santos only - if even that.
I don’t think that’s good enough to challenge on all fronts, or even finishing in top 4 again if other clubs do better yet.
I fear we go into the season with Ederson and Scott, and maybe Santos only - if even that.
I don’t think that’s good enough to challenge on all fronts, or even finishing in top 4 again if other clubs do better yet.
That's not how football works though, look at all the money Liverpool spent last season and how much they struggled.
Liverpool also broke the world record for a gk and again for a cb and that won them the league alongside having a word class attacker. Quality players make the difference.
Spending big money doesn't guarantee success as all your competitors are also spending money. Not spending big money though, guarantees you won't be competing at that level
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I haven’t seen many people who are delighted about it, it’s just not being offended or panicking about missing out on a couple of players who aren’t world beaters.
Some of the best players do cost the highest prices and some absolute dross like Antony and Sancho do as well. Saliba and Gabriel combined cost less than we paid for Martinez, it’s about getting the right players at the right times.
Van Dijk transformed Liverpool for a world record fee, Maguire cost more and was nowhere near that level so it is not all black and white.
The money can be used better or it can be pissed away, we dont’ know what the outcome will yet. I get the argument that it doesn’t come from our pockets but it comes from the budgets so the more you overpay from someone the less there is to spend on others. The bigger the fees and wages the harder it is to move on from players who fail, whether we like it or not that is the reality.
So you would prefer us to pay world class wages to middle of the pack players. What do you think happens when you pay average players above average salaries. Or to put it another way, what has happened at United when we have given average players or players who have a short period of good output, world class wages?
You pay players what they are worth, not what they ask so that you can get decent but unspectacular players in.
Precisely. You look for value for money. That doesn't mean cheap, it means value for money. It means not overpaying massively on the transfer fee or wages, more so on the wages. If you do your scouting well, you don't overpay for players.
Tottenham are going to find out that paying silly transfer fees and wages doesn't really work unless you are already at the top and very likely to stay there. Whats going to happen if Fernandes and Tonali don't tear it up next season? What do you think other players coming in or already at the club are going to be after when it comes time to talk contracts? What do they think is going to happen when they ask other clubs about their players and they've just forked out silly money for two decent if unspectacular players?
I get your point and don't disagree, however I do want to point out that if we only buy Ederson +1, then our starting midfield is Mainoo +1. In that case when we play twice a week, then the second game we play Ederson + youngster, or we need to rotate Mainoo/+1 with Ederson. Therefore, Ederson will see a lot of playing time (what I think is not a good strategy) and +1 player basically needs to be ready to start. And all of that is assuming we don't have any major injury, which would mean Ederson is the starting midfielder.
I still think we need 2 more midfielders. Either that or pull the plug on Ederson deal, and spend what we wanted to spend on 3 players on 2 midfielders and sacrifice striker/winger.
We have absolutely no depth in midfield as things stand, we are better in other positions all over the pitch.
Now that RM cooled their interest in Enzo, I would not mind Enzo for 110m pounds + a loan signing or cheap punt from other leagues to go along with Ederson.
I think if you wouldn't want to see Ederson playing a lot, that's a fair reason. I do think the club obviously expect him to be relatively important, being the first signing they wanted to secure. So yeah, I do expect him to be a prominent member of the first team next season. I don't think we particularly have much depth anywhere to be honest, but I think we're lacking real quality and options in our midfield.
Alonso wants to keep him
No racist morons for me thanks
In the Athletic's article about the Santos signings it says that....."But United still hope to sign two more midfielders this summer, alongside the expected arrival of Atalanta’s Ederson. And adding a player of Santos’ profile and potential would leave room for further reinforcement."
Two....
Two....
Pretty poor rebuild so far, and with news Tchouameni is staying, i don’t see how we can really improve.
If Aurelien Tchouameni doesn't sign, maybe a chance we go for Fede Valverde? Would really like an experienced midfielder joining , but might not be happening.
We might just be going this route:
Alex Scott 75m
Andrey Santos 50m
Ederson 35m
Not sure what to make of that. Least some potential there for future if it works out. And we'd be set for decade.
We might just be going this route:
Alex Scott 75m
Andrey Santos 50m
Ederson 35m
Not sure what to make of that. Least some potential there for future if it works out. And we'd be set for decade.
If we say Andre santos is done, along with ederson. Do we think thats it for midfield?
That'd be 5 (6 if we inc mount) "senior" mfs for 3 positions. And then there's the u21s, fletcher, kone
I think they'll focus elsewhere now.....
That'd be 5 (6 if we inc mount) "senior" mfs for 3 positions. And then there's the u21s, fletcher, kone
I think they'll focus elsewhere now.....
I'm hoping for one of hhe french guys. Maybe Kone
I'd like someone a bit more expansive in their passing now. I feel in Ederson and Santos, we have a mix of physical power and positionally sound midfielders. Mainoo has that ability in tight spaces, but only Fernandes can really make stuff happen with the ball.
I know it’s cool to be all doom and gloom but Ederson and Andrey Santos is a big upgrade in terms of legs in midfield.
Casemiro obviously contributed effectively but so much was skewed by his attacking output and by defending deep. If we want to play 20 yards up the field we need more ground coverage than Casemiro was giving.
Casemiro obviously contributed effectively but so much was skewed by his attacking output and by defending deep. If we want to play 20 yards up the field we need more ground coverage than Casemiro was giving.
Yeah in terms of hard workers and a bit of energy they're decent signings. We just need that big playmaker type to make it a decent midfield, unfortunately I don't think we'll get one.
At this point I think I'd go for Wharton but again too expensive.
Good shout for the right price
I hope we get one of the up and coming Ligue midfielders. I really like Sangare.
Tchouameni is De Jong 2.0.
Berge is too old.
Scott is too expensive.
Edit: Manzambi would also be mint.
Tchouameni is De Jong 2.0.
Berge is too old.
Scott is too expensive.
Edit: Manzambi would also be mint.
Still expecting one more myself given Ugarte’s injury.
I would go for Wharton as well over Tchouameni
In world football at the moment, how many of those expansive players exist that can play in a double pivot. Both Andrey Santos and Mainoo ( in addition to having Licha) are able to help us beat the initial press.
I think people are really overrating whats available and what has always been available. There are very few midfielders in football that have everything in one. Most have to be grown and still have thier limitations.
We've been crying out for 40-60m players for years, yet as a fan base we stick our nose up at anyone who is not yet established. You can't be in a position that we were in last year where we were in financial trouble, then come back and do the same things that landed us there in the first place.
Luckily, INEOS are smarter than our predecessors and won't base things on fans excitement for this. They don't know or care for the data. Data actually supports Andrey Santos and Ederson as two of the better fits for our midfield based on what we lacked last season. Whilst Woodward was blowing our budget on big deals and wages for Pogba, Lukaku, Cristiano, Mata and Sanchez, City were getting Fernandinho, Liverpool were getting Fabinho.
The bigger thing here for me is this. Today's game requires quality in depth more than anything else. Its a high pressing meta we have entered, meaning that energy and substitutions matter. Its the reason Arsenal won the league last season without any outstanding attacking force. That's where we are going. If fans truly believe in player growth, now is the time to show it. If we believe in Mainoo, lets give him that chance.
Dreadful rebuild is more accurate
Lets get Bruno G and complete the Brazilian revolution. Ederson, Andrey Santos and Bruno G our Brazilian midfield
Sounds like hes trying to force a move to Arsenal
Abso-fecking-lutely agree with this, I know he’s 28 so against what Ineos like but 4-5 years of Guimares whilst Santos is progressing would be perfect.
I think Guimares just wants out of Newcastle and would just as happily join us as anyone else in the CL next season
I'd quite like Barrios, I know there were tenuous links to him previously, but someone with a bit more about them. Bruno G would be absolutely ideal, but I don't really see us beating Arsenal.
INEOS keep playing too similar to Kobbie card
Yeah he isn't gonna reject Arsenal for us unfortunately
Bring me Wharton / Berge (sounds like Whataburger for the Texans on here) or Bouaddi x Berge