Centre Midfielder Transfer Links

Roboc7 said:
Casemiro has done a good job this season but he has gaps in his game as well and the club should be able to find better players. Even at his peak in the first season he started slow and his form fell off a cliff after the League Cup Final.

We’re not replacing a top class player who can perform week in week out for 90 minutes, there is plenty of scope to find someone as good or better even if they have a different skillset.

He was brilliant in the last game but there are also a lot of games where he just doesn’t have the legs. We have a low bar for midfielders at Utd because we’ve been so bad for so long, Casemiro is the best of an average bunch rather than an exceptional player at this stage of his career.
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He is going downhill this season, and can't last a full 90, but still, his stats suggest otherwise with regards to the last year overall:

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You can see some of the findings from my initial research above, but if "there is plenty of scope to find someone as good or better even if they have a different skillset" then please name some names.
 
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goldenboy said:
I honestly think that's pretty much impossible. It really is slim pickings already, including from the already narrowed down candidates below...

With the sad news of Casemiro leaving , combined with the sad loss of fbref, I thought I'd try and use some of the other tools I've since discovered to try and find possible replacements. The most interesting tool I found, which I've used for a lot of the following analysis, was this rather temperamental one:
https://best11scouting.streamlit.app/Men's_App
I also cross-referenced those findings with the stats and visualisations on other sites, eg https://datamb.football/midfielders/ and https://www.fotmob.com/en-GB/players/208494/casemiro.

I've focused on the key attributes for a #6 /DM that Casemiro brings to the table, and which should be the minimum requirements for United's needs, namely: strong ball winning ability, and strong forwards passing/play-making from deep. Were I to have also tried to factor in some of Casemiro's other strengths, such as aerial ability and goalscoring, then it would have removed far too many possible candidates already. The field is narrow enough as it is even just focusing on DMs who are both solid at ball-winning and forwards passing. Considering United might have someone like Mainoo as an 8 who lacks pace and ball-winning ability, I really think that strong ball-winning stats can not be compromised, e.g. someone like Wharton would be too defensively weak as a 6 alongside a Mainoo.

The final combination of parameters I settled upon resulted in the following list of matching players from the Premier League, which I think is a good demonstration that it is broadly focusing on the correct profile of player, even if some of them may have a couple of things which mean they are not ultimately United quality, or suitable for United's needs.

I have bolded those who seem to stand out as potentially possible and sensible. I left all the PL players below for demonstration purposes, but from other leagues I removed most of the older (27/8+) and notably lesser players to save space as they are unlikely to ever be under consideration.

(TLDR, only ones even close to consideration worthy, but all would be initial downgrades: Yarmoliuk, Anderson, Ampadu** Janelt, Chema Andres, Seiwald, Casado, Barrios, Ederson, M Sangare)

Premier League results (age order):

Yarmoliuk - Brentford - 21
Anderson - Forest - 23
Nico Gonzalez - Man City - 24
Caicedo - Chelsea - 24
Ampadu** - Leeds - 25
Janelt - Brentford - 27
Ibrahim Sangare - Forest - 28
Bruno Fernandes - Man United - 31
Casemiro - Man United - 33
Xhaka - Sunderland - 33

Anderson is the most obvious potential replacement out there, with some of the best overall CM stats in the PL. No doubt he'll plenty of suitors in the summer. He can as a 6 as well as an 8.

Yarmoliuk stands out as being another very promising young candidate not already at a big club. I don't think he'll be ready yet to be first-choice at a club like United, but given what he's doing so far at 21, and the improvements he's showing, he's not one to rule out in future. He could also be a good second-choice 6/Ugarte replacement. He doesn't have Casemiro's aerial ability unfortunately.

Janelt is having a very strong season so far for Brentford, and is very good in the air, but his age and potential fee would probably rule him out.

Ampadu** is a curious one. I've bolded him as I've just noticed he'll only have 1 year left on his contract in the summer, so could be a useful inexpensive squad option/Ugarte replacement. Not as obviously elite all-round as Casemiro, or Anderson, but as a pure ball-winner in the 6 position his stats are right up there for the Premier League. He certainly has plenty of pace and mobility, and is a good age. His passing is also surprisingly solid, even if he lacks the creativity and flashiness of the likes of Anderson and Wharton. He might get less hype as he plays for Wales, rather than being in the England conversation.
Quote from Leeds' forum: "If Ampadu and Aaronson, in particular, maintain the level of play they've attained in the last couple of months they will attract a lot of attention".

I think it's worthwhile adding a note that Garner scores very well on some of these measures, but where he gets cut-off by my criteria is "Accurate Long Pass %" - his figure for this looks really bad. I don't know whether set-pieces are a factor in this (but they don't impact Anderson's and Bruno's numbers in the same way if so) - but the data has him close to Ugarte for giving the ball away when trying longer passes. Seems he loses the ball too much with too many Hollywood passes that go astray. Short-medium passes he seems fine.

Bundesliga:

Chema - Stuttgart - 21
Kemlein - Union Berlin - 21
Avdullahu - Hoffenheim - 21
Seiwald - RB Leipzig - 24

Chema is the clear stand-out here from his stats. He is also strong in the air, which is rare for his age and position. Real Madrid will surely use their buy-back clause though. The others have too many deficiencies to move at the moment, but could still improve.
Seiwald seems a solid, if unspectacular, defensive-minded player.

La Liga:
Marc Casado* - Barcelona - 21
Pablo Barrios - Atletico Madrid - 22

It's funny to see Man United linked recently with Marc Casado, as his tackling and passing stats look pleasingly close to Casemiro's. He is on the small side though and lacks aerial ability, but at least has a bit of pace and goal threat. His stats also only tally for his 24/25 season - he hasn't really played enough this season, with Eric Garcia being favoured right now.
Pablo Barrios isn't as defensively solid as some of the others, but has a bit more mobility and creativity than many. Would probably be too expensive though with a recently extended contract at Atletico.

Serie A
Ederson - Atalanta - 26
Locatelli - Juventus - 28

United linked with Ederson a few times before. Seems very much a jack of all trades, master of none. Seems a solid all-rounder, without being better than Casemiro at anything.
I've added Locatelli back to the long-list as his stats are very good and he has a good profile, but I reckon his age would contribute to him being a non-starter.

Ligue 1
El Mourabati - Strasbourg - 20
Avom - Lorient - 21
M Sangare - Lens - 23
Tessmann - Lyon - 24

Mamadou Sangare and Avom have been mentioned before on here, and United have been linked with Sangare recently. Sangare's ball-winning stats look elite (in Ligue 1 at least), and his passing doesn't look too shabby either. It's only his first consistent season at a decent level though - United could be a big jump for him.
As an aside, El Mourabati looks an another annoyingly promising player on the Strasbourg/Chelsea production line.

Jupiler Pro League
Van De Perre - Union St Gilloise - 21
Seems a strong ball winner who I wouldn't be surprised see move to USG's sister club Brighton.

Eredivisie
Regeer - Ajax - 22

Liga NOS
Juanse Rodriguez - Fiondela - 19
Barrenechea - Benfica - 24
Juanse Rodriguez is an Ecuador u20 international, only recently moved to Portugal from LDU Quito. Expect a move to another stepping-stone club soon.
Not sure why it's not worked out at Villa for Barrenechea?
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Appreciate the great write up. Out of interest how did Bouaddi and Stiller (two often mentioned names that I can't say I've watched too much) rate from your analysis?
 
goldenboy said:
He is going downill now, and can't last a full 90, but still, his stats suggest otherwise:

f4v8zej.png


You can see some of the findings from my initial research above, but if "there is plenty of scope to find someone as good or better even if they have a different skillset" then please name some names.
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Casemiro has been good this season
But we all know he doesn't have many miles left in those legs.
Replacing his quality will be difficult like you say.
 
goldenboy said:
If Casemiro didn't "have the legs these days" - he wouldn't be in the top 1% for Pass-adjusted Tackles + Interceptions per 90 minutes... he just doesn't have the stamina to do it for a full 90 any more.



The problem is, there are no players in the market who can do what Casemiro does for 60 or 70 minutes for a full 90. There aren't even any players who could do 90% of what Casemiro does for a full 90 when you consider his contribution with and without the ball. His defensive stats are even better than someone like Caicedo's ffs.

Liverpool's midfield was, and arguably still is, the least World Class area of its team btw, but they had the benefit of WC players in most other positions already (eg Alisson, Van Dijk, TAA, Salah etc.). Their CM is solid and workmanlike, without the stars of some of their other positions. But they could afford that in a way this current United squad can't so much. City, Arsenal, even maybe Chelsea, have had better midfields in the last couple of years than Liverpool.

United will be losing a World Class player in Casemiro, and they don't grow on trees. If you end up with a solid and workmanlike, but no longer World Class central midfield (and when Bruno leaves from AM this will be even more the case), then you're going to need more World Class players in other positions to compensate for that if you want to compete at the very highest level. But Casemiro and Bruno were two of United's very few arguably World Class players.
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Casemiro hasn't been "world class" for awhile. Very good but not WC. We've known for a long while that our midfield has needed upgrading badly. I think two new elite signings will make us realise what we have been missing.

Just as Utds performance against City, reminded us all, Utd can play like that. Some of us forgot. Same for central midfield next season. The new signings will lift the floor for regular performances in that area.

Bruno is going to go back and play in his natural position at no10 at the tip of the midfield triangle. Where he is at his most devastatingly effective.

We will be fine without Casemiro.
 
So we will be going into next season with 3 CMs; Mainoo, Ugarte and Collyer. Mainoo is still far from the finished product, even if he has bags of potential. Collyer is even less of a finished product, obviously. Ugarte is looking like a complete miss and he can't be happy with his situation either, and might genuinely want to leave.

We need to sign 2 CMs for sure. And one of them must be expected to be the main man in CM from day 1.
 
This club just doesn't use data when it comes to signing players does it? Baleba is having a horrible season and we're still planning to spunk money on him because we can't think of any other DMs.
 
Scandi Red said:
So we will be going into next season with 3 CMs; Mainoo, Ugarte and Collyer. Mainoo is still far from the finished product, even if he has bags of potential. Collyer is even less of a finished product, obviously. Ugarte is looking like a complete miss and he can't be happy with his situation either, and might genuinely want to leave.

We need to sign 2 CMs for sure. And one of them must be expected to be the main man in CM from day 1.
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Yes, we need 2 minimum. And ideally, we sell Ugarte and buy a replacement. Or buy a cheaper potential prospect as a 3rd. The first 2 should be starters in my view.
 
Flanders Devil said:
Appreciate the great write up. Out of interest how did Bouaddi and Stiller (two often mentioned names that I can't say I've watched too much) rate from your analysis?
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Bouaddi failed to make the cut-off due to his Long Pass Completion %age being too low, as well as making too few Progressive Passes.
On the plus side, his ball-winning stats look impressive already, plus he has decent aerial ability.
I certainly wouldn't rule out him becoming good enough with time, but yeah, looking at his overall passing stats, and also his discipline (cards and fouls), he's definitely someone you'd want to ease in during low pressure times or not very important games, while expecting teething issues. I also wonder if, with his propensity for bursting forwards via dribbling (together with his lesser long-range passing) he might also be better served long-term as an #8 rather than #6.

Stiller failed to make the cut-off due to making too few Successful Defensive Actions per 90. His passing stats obviously look good, but in general from having watched him I do think he will struggle with the physicality of the PL.
 
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With Bruno back in attack, Casemiro leaving, plus most likely Ugarte.

United's midfield for next season = Mainoo! How quickly things can change in football.

Gonna be a busy summer as 2 new faces will be needed in CM.
 
Planning a midfield rebuild without a manager is risky and short sighted. We also can’t rebuild the entire midfield around kids.
 
McLvnsMuse said:
Planning a midfield rebuild without a manager is risky and short sighted. We also can’t rebuild the entire midfield around kids.
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Given the news regarding Casemiro, I'm convinced we have a deal in principle agreed for summer for one, if not, two CMs.

I fully expect Baleba to be one and the other being Anderson. Given theyre the two names we're constantly linked with, plenty of legwork will have already have been put in, with at least Baleba giving us his word he'll move in summer.
 
McLvnsMuse said:
Planning a midfield rebuild without a manager is risky and short sighted. We also can’t rebuild the entire midfield around kids.
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It shouldn't be. Your manager shouldn't be dictating what players you buy for the most part. You should know how you want to play and your manager and squad reflect that. That why Amorim was such a strange gamble. Its a big part of why we have been so poor for over a decade. You cannot build squads in the image of your manage when your manager lasts 18 months usually. You end up with what we have had for a long time which is a mish-mash of players who want to play and are suited to very different styles of play.
 
Outside of Baleba / Wharton / Anderson - have there been any credible links to say we are interested in anyone else?

Excluding being offered players etc

Apologies if already discussed
 
pascell said:
Given the news regarding Casemiro, I'm convinced we have a deal in principle agreed for summer for one, if not, two CMs.

I fully expect Baleba to be one and the other being Anderson. Given theyre the two names we're constantly linked with, plenty of legwork will have already have been put in, with at least Baleba giving us his word he'll move in summer.
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No chance imo. Lets remember your prediction and come back to it after the summer though. Mine is we're choosing between them and will sign 1 midfielder from the Baleba, Wharton, Anderson and the same sort of age group. So we're linked because we're interested but havent got an agreement with 1 player. We just know we're going to spend on one of them or a foreign alternative.
 
Foolsgold21 said:
Outside of Baleba / Wharton / Anderson - have there been any credible links to say we are interested in anyone else?

Excluding being offered players etc

Apologies if already discussed
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I am curious too. We need at least two new midfielders. Maybe even 3.
We can't afford buying all midfielders for premium prices.
 
goldenboy said:
He is going downill now, and can't last a full 90, but still, his stats suggest otherwise:

f4v8zej.png


You can see some of the findings from my initial research above, but if "there is plenty of scope to find someone as good or better even if they have a different skillset" then please name some names.
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Of course there is plenty of scope for improvement, we’re not looking for a like for like replacement either so a lot of these comparisons are flawed.

Maybe you can’t find someone who is as good in some areas but you can certainly find someone who is much better in others. We accept Casemiro’s limitations because we don’t have anyone better.
 
Andycoleno9 said:
I thought it is a phrase for players who become too slow to keep up with the pace of the game.
Well, you learn every day....
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It can mean that too. But Casemiro can't keep up with the pace of the game for the full 90 and that's when he's only playing one game a week so it's a much of a muchness.

Try playing him twice a week and he'd look shot altogether.
 
mctrials23 said:
It shouldn't be. Your manager shouldn't be dictating what players you buy for the most part. You should know how you want to play and your manager and squad reflect that. That why Amorim was such a strange gamble. Its a big part of why we have been so poor for over a decade. You cannot build squads in the image of your manage when your manager lasts 18 months usually. You end up with what we have had for a long time which is a mish-mash of players who want to play and are suited to very different styles of play.
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You know there’s a very sensible middle ground right? One where we are aren’t signing players based solely on Wilcox’s predilections Or Eths “connections”.

Color me crazy but if we are aiming for a world class manager then maybe they’ve earned a say in the type of midfield we hand them.
 
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Blood Mage said:
This club just doesn't use data when it comes to signing players does it? Baleba is having a horrible season and we're still planning to spunk money on him because we can't think of any other DMs.
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Been privy to the meetings have you? Or are you just assuming that because the fecking mail said we were signing him
 
Ekeke said:
No chance imo. Lets remember your prediction and come back to it after the summer though. Mine is we're choosing between them and will sign 1 midfielder from the Baleba, Wharton, Anderson and the same sort of age group. So we're linked because we're interested but havent got an agreement with 1 player. We just know we're going to spend on one of them or a foreign alternative.
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Yeah no chance we can afford Baleba and Anderson, who are the CM's that only have a year left on contracts or are free agents in summer because need to show shrewdness
 
McLvnsMuse said:
Planning a midfield rebuild without a manager is risky and short sighted. We also can’t rebuild the entire midfield around kids.
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Isn’t it the opposite? Post Fergie, allowing managers to take the lead with signings in is the sort of short-termist thinking which has done harm to our longer term plans. The whole point of moving to a DoF/DoR structure is to provide longer term stability and strategic planning to our recruitment. We should be pursuing players who can benefit us irrespective of who the manager is at any given time, especially when player contracts tend to outlive managerial ones.
 
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croadyman said:
Yeah no chance we can afford Baleba and Anderson, who are the CM's that only have a year left on contracts or are free agents in summer because need to show shrewdness
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Why couldn’t we?

We managed to spend £200 million on our attack last summer and it sounds like there will be money to spend on the midfield this summer. If we qualify for CL there will be a major financial windfall, plus we’re going to save a shitload on Casemiro’s wages and will likely offload Zirkzee and Ugarte for £50-60 million.

To be clear, I’m not saying we should spend £160 million or whatever on those two. But if we really decided to, I don’t think it’s completely beyond our means.
 
Zumbi said:
Why couldn’t we?

We managed to spend £200 million on our attack last summer and it sounds like there will be money to spend on the midfield this summer. If we qualify for CL there will be a major financial windfall, plus we’re going to save a shitload on Casemiro’s wages and will likely offload Zirkzee and Ugarte for £50-60 million.

To be clear, I’m not saying we should spend £160 million or whatever on those two. But if we really decided to, I don’t think it’s completely beyond our means.
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I also worry about the lack of creativity in there, feel we need to pair either with someone who can provide that
 
croadyman said:
I also worry about the lack of creativity in there, feel we need to pair either with someone who can provide that
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Fair enough, but that’s a different question to whether we can afford them or not.
 
I think we will only get one of Baleba, Anderson or Wharton to pair Mainoo next year as our main midfield pairing. Them we will get 1 or 2 more midfielders that are less costly than those 3 to be options from the bench. I don't think we will pay 180m-200m for 2 midfielders tbh which it will take to get 2 of them.

I just hope whoever we pick out of the 3 it works out for us. My favorite is Anderson at the moment
 
ElectroManiac said:
I think we will only get one of Baleba, Anderson or Wharton to pair Mainoo next year as our main midfield pairing. Them we will get 1 or 2 more midfielders that are less costly than those 3 to be options from the bench. I don't think we will pay 180m-200m for 2 midfielders tbh which it will take to get 2 of them.

I just hope whoever we pick out of the 3 it works out for us. My favorite is Anderson at the moment
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So much will depend on whether we get into the CL or not.
 
Zumbi said:
So much will depend on whether we get into the CL or not.
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Which is why we should have signed someone in this window when we’re in and around the CL spots. We should at least be testing the waters by putting a sizeable bid in for one or two of these targets that we’ve identified for the summer.
 
ManhattanRed said:
Which is why we should have signed someone in this window when we’re in and around the CL spots. We should at least be testing the waters by putting a sizeable bid in for one or two of these targets that we’ve identified for the summer.
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Where is the money for that sizeable bid?
 
ManhattanRed said:
Which is why we should have signed someone in this window when we’re in and around the CL spots. We should at least be testing the waters by putting a sizeable bid in for one or two of these targets that we’ve identified for the summer.
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Easier said than done. We may have made informal enquiries and been immediately knocked back with ridiculous fees - no team wants to lose a key CM with four months left of the season. That’s why January deals are hard to do. CM is such a key part of our rebuild that I don’t mind waiting for the right signings rather than signing stop gaps.
 
Zumbi said:
Easier said than done. We may have made informal enquiries and been immediately knocked back with ridiculous fees - no team wants to lose a key CM with four months left of the season. That’s why January deals are hard to do. CM is such a key part of our rebuild that I don’t mind waiting for the right signings rather than signing stop gaps.
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Yeah enquire about any of our top three targets this window and we are being quoted probably £100m each
 
Zumbi said:
Isn’t it the opposite? Post Fergie, allowing managers to take the lead with signings in is the sort of short-termist thinking which has done harm to our longer term plans. The whole point of moving to a DoF/DoR structure is to provide longer term stability and strategic planning to our recruitment. We should be pursuing players who can benefit us irrespective of who the manager is at any given time, especially when player contracts tend to outlive managerial ones.
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Like I said, there’s a very sensible middle ground. Do you want a Wilcox or an Enrique shaping the midfield?

McLvnsMuse said:
You know there’s a very sensible middle ground right? One where we are aren’t signing players based solely on Wilcox’s predilections Or Eths “connections”.

Color me crazy but if we are aiming for a world class manager then maybe they’ve earned a say in the type of midfield we hand them.
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McLvnsMuse said:
Like I said, there’s a very sensible middle ground. Do you want a Wilcox or an Enrique shaping the midfield?
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This isn't how it works though.

Clubs like Brentford and Brighton have their targets identified and prioritised by their data teams. I'd be willing to bet both clubs would still sign players even if they were between managers.

United are trying to build a data team that is amongst the best in football, in order to try and find these top players before they have moved to the PL and cost 80 million. Once this is up and running I think you'll see us move away from huge money signings.

Baleba and Anderson this summer and maybe a new RB and I think we'd be good.
 
GaryLifo said:
This isn't how it works though.

Clubs like Brentford and Brighton have their targets identified and prioritised by their data teams. I'd be willing to bet both clubs would still sign players even if they were between managers.

United are trying to build a data team that is amongst the best in football, in order to try and find these top players before they have moved to the PL and cost 80 million. Once this is up and running I think you'll see us move away from huge money signings.

Baleba and Anderson this summer and maybe a new RB and I think we'd be good.
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We might be rubbish but we aren’t building to be the next Brentford or Brighton.

The difference between being a really solid league team and challenging for titles is the synergy between the managers ideas and the recruitment team/process.
 
croadyman said:
Where is the money for that sizeable bid?
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We had the money for Semenyo but don’t have it for a midfielder? There’s always creative accounting to get this stuff done.
Zumbi said:
Easier said than done. We may have made informal enquiries and been immediately knocked back with ridiculous fees - no team wants to lose a key CM with four months left of the season. That’s why January deals are hard to do. CM is such a key part of our rebuild that I don’t mind waiting for the right signings rather than signing stop gaps.
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The problem is, there’s a chance these players (especially Anderson) don’t come in the summer without CL football. I’m not saying we bid 150 now but we should be trying. Deals are harder to do in January but not impossible. Chelsea got Caicedo in January and we made our best transfer in a decade in January too.
 
McLvnsMuse said:
We might be rubbish but we aren’t building to be the next Brentford or Brighton.

The difference between being a really solid league team and challenging for titles is the synergy between the managers ideas and the recruitment team/process.
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That synergy shouldn’t come from the manager setting the direction of the club though. That’s why we’ve been in a continual process of squad overhaul ever since Fergie left.

The synergy must come from the club who has to set the direction and recruit players and coaches to that vision. That way if a coach doesn’t work out you can make tweaks and evolve the squad rather than having to embark on a process of rebuilding which has left us with one frankenstein of a squad after another.
 
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