Centre Midfielder Transfer Links

Radiofiend6269 said:
Can someone explain to me why we aren’t considering Tonali?
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How much do you think Newcastle would want for him? 80-100 mil. That's probably why.

Guimaries is probably £120mil or something stupid like that

Also why would Newcastle sell to a CL position rival?
 
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BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
@The Boy …..?
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Horrible season is an over exaggeration - he missed preseason with a knee injury, has had an "undisclosed" family issue and of course all the transfer speculation. His first half of the season has been well below what we have come to expect of him, but his form picked up towards the end of the year and he had a very good AFCON. Let's see how he does against Fulham this afternoon, he was unbelievable in this fixture last year.
 
If we can bring in a bit of quality even on loan then that could help us get 4th.
 
The talk seems to the that Anderson will be going to City in the Summer, and given that we have put the groundwork in with Baleba I think we will sign him. Depending on the price I think there is a chance we could get Wharton too but it would seem unlikely so I'm guessing cheaper options will be looked at. Andy Mitten said on talk of the devils that we are in the market for a defensive leader. I think we will probably sign two CM's, a CB and an Attacker (possibly a backup ST or maybe someone who is a bit more natural at LW) and possibly a fullback, although with the switch back to 4-2-3-1 I think our RB's are perfectly serviceable and the club might not want to black Amass's pathway to the first team with another LB.
 
ShinjiNinja26 said:
The barcodes quoted us £50m for Sean fecking Longstaff! and that was a few years ago now. What you think they’ll want for Tonali?
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No-one is taking players off Newcastle unless they play stupid money like Liverpool.
 
Any thoughts on Mateus Fernandes as an 8 if West Ham go down. Apparently he will have a 20m relegation clause and he could be a great option as an 8 to compete with Mainoo.
 
McLvnsMuse said:
Like I said, there’s a very sensible middle ground. Do you want a Wilcox or an Enrique shaping the midfield?
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But it’s not just Wilcox. We also have Vivell, and are reshaping our entire recruitment and scouting team. Last summer’s business seemed to be an improvement, with examples of how that structure is working more effectively for the long term than if the manager had more of a say. For example, Amorim wanted Watkins (30) and Martinez (33) but the club went for Lammens (23) and Sesko (22) instead. Amorim is now gone and so it seems like it was a pretty sensible long term decision to go for the younger players instead.

Overall I am absolutely fine with us taking that approach to the midfield rather than doing what we’ve done in the past.
 
ManhattanRed said:
The problem is, there’s a chance these players (especially Anderson) don’t come in the summer without CL football. I’m not saying we bid 150 now but we should be trying. Deals are harder to do in January but not impossible. Chelsea got Caicedo in January and we made our best transfer in a decade in January too.
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Sure, but then why would they want to commit to us in January when they also don’t know whether they will have CL football here or not? It’s a catch 22 in that regard: we need players who will help us get CL football, but the better players usually want to sign for clubs who already have CL football.

We also don’t know we haven’t tried - there’s all sorts of communication behind the scenes between clubs, agents and players that we never find out about. If we’ve already made informal enquires for our main targets and been informed there’s zero chance until summer, then it makes sense to wait.

And Caicedo is a terrible example for you - he moved to Chelsea in August. He had asked to leave in January, but Brighton turned down several offers from Arsenal and Chelsea because they didn’t want to lose him mid season. He then signed a new contract in March and moved for big money in the summer.
 
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ManhattanRed said:
We had the money for Semenyo but don’t have it for a midfielder? There’s always creative accounting to get this stuff done.

The problem is, there’s a chance these players (especially Anderson) don’t come in the summer without CL football. I’m not saying we bid 150 now but we should be trying. Deals are harder to do in January but not impossible. Chelsea got Caicedo in January and we made our best transfer in a decade in January too.
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The money was there for the Semenyo because he was a priority target, it’s fair to assume it would be there if another one was available. The money doesn’t have to spent on any old player for the sake of it and someone like Anderson won’t be sold when Forest are in a relegation battle.

If Anderson is prioritising Champions League football then there’s no incentive to join Utd now. Caceido was desperate to leave Brighton and making it clear he wanted out but the top tier of talent won’t be doing that for us now unfortunately so it’s a case of waiting until the summer.
 
Roboc7 said:
The money was there for the Semenyo because he was a priority target, it’s fair to assume it would be there if another one was available. The money doesn’t have to spent on any old player for the sake of it and someone like Anderson won’t be sold when Forest are in a relegation battle.

If Anderson is prioritising Champions League football then there’s no incentive to join Utd now. Caceido was desperate to leave Brighton and making it clear he wanted out but the top tier of talent won’t be doing that for us now unfortunately so it’s a case of waiting until the summer.
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And Caicedo still didn’t move in January - Brighton refused to sell him then, waiting until summer, exactly like they’ll do with Baleba.
 
redNATION said:
Makes sense to go for 2/3 of Elliot , Baleba and Wharton, along with a young talent like Mokio or Bouaddi.
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Hadn't heard of Mokio before. He hasn't played many minutes yet so it's early days, but De Cat at Anderlecht seems to be putting up slightly better numbers at the moment, as far as deep-lying 17 year-old Belgian midfielders go. I've also mentioned Siltanen at Djugardens as another young deep-lying CM who seems promising.
 
goldenboy said:
Hadn't heard of Mokio before. He hasn't played many minutes yet so it's early days, but De Cat at Anderlecht seems to be putting up slightly better numbers at the moment, as far as deep-lying 17 year-old Belgian midfielders go. I've also mentioned Siltanen at Djugardens as another young deep-lying CM who seems promising.
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Any idea how Kees Smit is doing? Heard a lot of hype about his prospects.
 
Kingslayer18 said:
Any thoughts on Mateus Fernandes as an 8 if West Ham go down. Apparently he will have a 20m relegation clause and he could be a great option as an 8 to compete with Mainoo.
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I still can't believe we didn't sign him last year. Good footballer, that lad, and would have cost less than Fred years before. It amazed me that nobody snapped him up from a relegated club until an end of transfer window panic buy from WHU.

Two great hits today, although sounds like he doesn't do those very often.
 
Zumbi said:
Any idea how Kees Smit is doing? Heard a lot of hype about his prospects.
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AZ and also his performances have dipped a bit in the last couple of months, and AZ's manager has just got fired as a result.

Smit hasn't had a goal or assist since early November.

I actually watched AZ vs Excelsior during the week, and Smit still looked very sharp to me. He could have done better with a couple of shots, but his passing and dribbling still looked excellent, and he completed 2 key passes. He'd have had assists if his team were playing with more confidence than at the moment. He oozes class and glides across the pitch.

I remain a big fan of him and think he's ready for the PL. My main question is whether he'll ultimately be best as an 8 or a 10. He might need to up his tackling intensity a bit long-term for an 8, and he'll need to regain his shooting boots long-term for a 10, but I think he's demonstrated that he has the tools to do both and can become an all-round midfield maestro in future.

Trying not to be too fickle, at the moment the only way in which I perhaps wouldn't like to see him as Bruno's under-study at United next season, would be if Mateus Fernandes continues with performances like today for West Ham and the rumoured relegation release clause of his comes to fruition
 
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goldenboy said:
AZ and also his performances have dipped a bit in the last couple of months, and AZ's manager has just got fired as a result.

Smit hasn't had a goal or assist yet this season.

I actually watched AZ vs Excelsior during the week, and Smit still looked very sharp to me. He could have done better with a couple of shots, but his passing and dribbling still looked excellent, and he completed 2 key passes. He'd have had assists if his team were playing with more confidence than at the moment. He oozes class and glides across the pitch.

I remain a big fan of him and think he's ready for the PL. My main question is whether he'll ultimately be best as an 8 or a 10. He might need to up his tackling intensity a bit long-term for an 8, and he'll need to regain his shooting boots long-term for a 10, but I think he's demonstrated that he has the tools to do both and can become an all-round midfield maestro in future.

Trying not to be too fickle, at the moment the only way in which I wouldn't like to see him as Bruno's under-study at United next season, would be if Mateus Fernandes continues with performances like today for West Ham and the rumoured relegation release clause of his comes to fruition
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Thanks very much! Appreciate the detailed reply.
 
goldenboy said:
With the sad news of Casemiro leaving , combined with the sad loss of fbref, I thought I'd try and use some of the other tools I've since discovered to try and find possible replacements.

I've focused on the key attributes for a #6 /DM that Casemiro brings to the table, and which should be the minimum requirements for United's needs, namely: strong ball winning ability, and strong forwards passing/play-making from deep.

(TLDR, only ones even close to consideration worthy, but all would be initial downgrades: Yarmoliuk, Anderson, Ampadu* Janelt, Chema Andres, Seiwald, Casado*, Barrios, Ederson, M Sangare, Siltanen* ; asterisks = additional caveats)

Premier League results (age order):

Yarmoliuk - Brentford - 21
Anderson - Forest - 23
Nico Gonzalez - Man City - 24
Caicedo - Chelsea - 24
Ampadu** - Leeds - 25
Janelt - Brentford - 27
Ibrahim Sangare - Forest - 28
Bruno Fernandes - Man United - 31
Casemiro - Man United - 33
Xhaka - Sunderland - 33

Anderson is the most obvious potential replacement out there, with some of the best overall CM stats in the PL. No doubt he'll plenty of suitors in the summer. He can as a 6 as well as an 8.

Yarmoliuk stands out as being another very promising young candidate not already at a big club. I don't think he'll be ready yet to be first-choice at a club like United, but given what he's doing so far at 21, and the improvements he's showing, he's not one to rule out in future. He could also be a good second-choice 6/Ugarte replacement. He doesn't have Casemiro's aerial ability unfortunately.

Janelt is having a very strong season so far for Brentford, and is very good in the air, but his age and potential fee would probably rule him out.

Ampadu** is a curious one. I've bolded him as I've just noticed he'll only have 1 year left on his contract in the summer, so could be a useful inexpensive squad option/Ugarte replacement. Not as obviously elite all-round as Casemiro, or Anderson, but as a pure ball-winner in the 6 position his stats are right up there for the Premier League. He certainly has plenty of pace and mobility, and is a good age. His passing is also surprisingly solid, even if he lacks the creativity and flashiness of the likes of Anderson and Wharton. He might get less hype as he plays for Wales, rather than being in the England conversation.
Quote from Leeds' forum: "If Ampadu and Aaronson, in particular, maintain the level of play they've attained in the last couple of months they will attract a lot of attention".

Ligue 1
El Mourabati - Strasbourg - 20
Avom - Lorient - 21
M Sangare - Lens - 23
Tessmann - Lyon - 24

Mamadou Sangare and Avom have been mentioned before on here, and United have been linked with Sangare recently. Sangare's ball-winning stats look elite (in Ligue 1 at least), and his passing doesn't look too shabby either. It's only his first consistent season at a decent level though - United could be a big jump for him.
As an aside, El Mourabati looks an another annoyingly promising player on the Strasbourg/Chelsea production line.
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From this data research last week, I highlighted a number of possible Casemiro replacements, whether as starters or squad options/prospects. I focused on players capable of acting as strong defensive shields in the #6 role, while also providing strong forwards passing ability.

From the analysis, I came to a shortlist of: Yarmoliuk, Anderson, Ampadu, Janelt, Chema Andres, Seiwald, Casado, Barrios, Ederson, M Sangare, Siltanen.

Since then, I managed to watch a number of them play live again, with a focus on their performances. Some additional thoughts:

I watched Brentford vs Forest, with Yarmoliuk, Janelt and Anderson all playing.
- Anderson sadly remains the apparent best DM option in the market, and he was the most impressive midfielder on display here. However, I still just don't see him as a £100mil player. His long-range passing technique looks a bit odd and weak for what you'd hope for from a CM with that fee. While Rice repeatedly pin-point pings corners under the goal-keeper, Anderson took most of Forest's corners and free-kicks in this game and under-hit most of them straight in to the midriff of the first man. He's a very good ball-winner with very good passing along the ground, but right now he's missing some of that extra x-factor Rice and Caicedo have.
- Yarmoliuk had a good performance and definitely looks a good prospect. He's quite quick, mopped up a lot defensively and his passing was crisp. I don't think he makes sense for United at the moment though. If he was a cheap squad option, maybe, but Brentford would want too much. He lacks the physicality right now to be worthy of United either paying a large fee for or making a starter.
- Janelt just didn't fill me with confidence.

- Ampadu - I watched Everton vs Leeds. Ampadu impressed me more than expected. He's fairly disciplined as a ball-winner, and then surprisingly calm and composed on the ball. His passing isn't as risky or ambitious as an Anderson or Wharton, but he keeps the team ticking over. I wouldn't start him in games where you were looking to play on the front-foot and dominate, but he'd be a good bench option in games you're winning and you want to shut up shop and close the game out. Only 1 year left on his deal in the summer so could be a useful cheap squad option.

- M Sangare - I watched Lens away at Marseille, and was disappointed by Sangare's performance. The game was also a timely reminded that Ligue 1 is a farmer's league. Sangare seemed more of a player like Ugarte who hares around hunting the ball, rather than shielding the defence. He seemed worryingly lacking in the desire to track back and put out fires, which you'd want from a #6. Just check out Marseille's 1st goal at the start of the vid below. Sangare, wearing the 8 shirt, is the player just casually jogging back, as Gouiri, the eventual goal-scorer, is occupying the gap between Lens' midfield and defence which Sangare should be working hard to close down:



I will try and catch another game of his soon to get an idea whether this game was an unusual aberration
 
Grizzly B said:
The talk seems to the that Anderson will be going to City in the Summer, and given that we have put the groundwork in with Baleba I think we will sign him. Depending on the price I think there is a chance we could get Wharton too but it would seem unlikely so I'm guessing cheaper options will be looked at. Andy Mitten said on talk of the devils that we are in the market for a defensive leader. I think we will probably sign two CM's, a CB and an Attacker (possibly a backup ST or maybe someone who is a bit more natural at LW) and possibly a fullback, although with the switch back to 4-2-3-1 I think our RB's are perfectly serviceable and the club might not want to black Amass's pathway to the first team with another LB.
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I agree, I think it’ll be Baleba plus another, more modestly priced midfielder in the £25-40m bracket.

On top of that, another forward of some sort, probably left sided, a left back and a backup keeper. Think we’ll only go for a centre back if they’re top tier. We’ve got depth, we’ve got two highly rated prospects there.
 
Zumbi said:
Sure, but then why would they want to commit to us in January when they also don’t know whether they will have CL football here or not? It’s a catch 22 in that regard: we need players who will help us get CL football, but the better players usually want to sign for clubs who already have CL football.

We also don’t know we haven’t tried - there’s all sorts of communication behind the scenes between clubs, agents and players that we never find out about. If we’ve already made informal enquires for our main targets and been informed there’s zero chance until summer, then it makes sense to wait.

And Caicedo is a terrible example for you - he moved to Chelsea in August. He had asked to leave in January, but Brighton turned down several offers from Arsenal and Chelsea because they didn’t want to lose him mid season. He then signed a new contract in March and moved for big money in the summer.
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Ah sorry yes you’re right, it was Liverpool who tried to get him in Jan and failed, I got that mixed up.

I think, especially after the last two performances, we can easily convince a midfielder that they could be the difference between us securing CL football or not.

A cheeky sizeable bid for Baleba wouldn’t hurt anybody. And if it doesn’t look like its going to happen, fine; go get someone for depth this window. Just sitting here and not bringing anyone in is criminal. We are literally 1 injury away from having to start Ugarte every week.
 
goldenboy said:
From this data research last week, I highlighted a number of possible Casemiro replacements, whether as starters or squad options/prospects. I focused on players capable of acting as strong defensive shields in the #6 role, while also providing strong forwards passing ability.

From the analysis, I came to a shortlist of: Yarmoliuk, Anderson, Ampadu, Janelt, Chema Andres, Seiwald, Casado, Barrios, Ederson, M Sangare, Siltanen.

Since then, I managed to watch a number of them play live again, with a focus on their performances. Some additional thoughts:

I watched Brentford vs Forest, with Yarmoliuk, Janelt and Anderson all playing.
- Anderson sadly remains the apparent best DM option in the market, and he was the most impressive midfielder on display here. However, I still just don't see him as a £100mil player. His long-range passing technique looks a bit odd and weak for what you'd hope for from a CM with that fee. While Rice repeatedly pin-point pings corners under the goal-keeper, Anderson took most of Forest's corners and free-kicks in this game and under-hit most of them straight in to the midriff of the first man. He's a very good ball-winner with very good passing along the ground, but right now he's missing some of that extra x-factor Rice and Caicedo have.
- Yarmoliuk had a good performance and definitely looks a good prospect. He's quite quick, mopped up a lot defensively and his passing was crisp. I don't think he makes sense for United at the moment though. If he was a cheap squad option, maybe, but Brentford would want too much. He lacks the physicality right now to be worthy of United either paying a large fee for or making a starter.
- Janelt just didn't fill me with confidence.

- Ampadu - I watched Everton vs Leeds. Ampadu impressed me more than expected. He's fairly disciplined as a ball-winner, and then surprisingly calm and composed on the ball. His passing isn't as risky or ambitious as an Anderson or Wharton, but he keeps the team ticking over. I wouldn't start him in games where you were looking to play on the front-foot and dominate, but he'd be a good bench option in games you're winning and you want to shut up shop and close the game out. Only 1 year left on his deal in the summer so could be a useful cheap squad option.

- M Sangare - I watched Lens away at Marseille, and was disappointed by Sangare's performance. The game was also a timely reminded that Ligue 1 is a farmer's league. Sangare seemed more of a player like Ugarte who hares around hunting the ball, rather than shielding the defence. He seemed worryingly lacking in the desire to track back and put out fires, which you'd want from a #6. Just check out Marseille's 1st goal at the start of the vid below. Sangare, wearing the 8 shirt, is the player just casually jogging back, as Gouiri, the eventual goal-scorer, is occupying the gap between Lens' midfield and defence which Sangare should be working hard to close down:



I will try and catch another game of his soon to get an idea whether this game was an unusual aberration
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Thanks for this, appreciate the insight.
 
ManhattanRed said:
Ah sorry yes you’re right, it was Liverpool who tried to get him in Jan and failed, I got that mixed up.

I think, especially after the last two performances, we can easily convince a midfielder that they could be the difference between us securing CL football or not.

A cheeky sizeable bid for Baleba wouldn’t hurt anybody. And if it doesn’t look like its going to happen, fine; go get someone for depth this window. Just sitting here and not bringing anyone in is criminal. We are literally 1 injury away from having to start Ugarte every week.
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We might be able to convince a midfielder, but can we convince our priority targets?

I have little doubt Baleba wants to come to us either way, but Brighton aren’t going to let him go until summer unless we offer an amount that’s much higher than we’re willing or able to pay - the Caicedo example is illustrative of the issues in trying to do mid season deals with Brighton. There’s zero point in making a bid that’s not going to be accepted. And again, just because an official bid hasn’t been made doesn’t mean we haven’t made unofficial enquiries via back channels. We only hear a fraction of what goes on behind the scenes between agents, players and clubs.

Why would the likes of Anderson or Wharton take that risk now rather than wait until summer and weigh up their options when a few CL clubs are likely to be in for them this summer? And why would Palace or Forest sell now when neither is safe from a relegation battle? It would be far too risky for them to lose such key players at the end of the window with a few months of the season remaining. That’s why January deals are so much harder to do.

So yeah, we could try and get a stop gap, but given that it often takes new players a few months to settle, maybe we’re prioritising getting the long term MF rebuild right over hoping that a desperate short term option helps. Especially if that stop gap option diverts funds from our priority targets.
 
Zumbi said:
We might be able to convince a midfielder, but can we convince our priority targets?

I have little doubt Baleba wants to come to us either way, but Brighton aren’t going to let him go until summer unless we offer an amount that’s much higher than we’re willing or able to pay - the Caicedo example is illustrative of the issues in trying to do mid season deals with Brighton. There’s zero point in making a bid that’s not going to be accepted. And again, just because an official bid hasn’t been made doesn’t mean we haven’t made unofficial enquiries via back channels. We only hear a fraction of what goes on behind the scenes between agents, players and clubs.

Why would the likes of Anderson or Wharton take that risk now rather than wait until summer and weigh up their options when a few CL clubs are likely to be in for them this summer? And why would Palace or Forest sell now when neither is safe from a relegation battle? It would be far too risky for them to lose such key players at the end of the window with a few months of the season remaining. That’s why January deals are so much harder to do.

So yeah, we could try and get a stop gap, but given that it often takes new players a few months to settle, maybe we’re prioritising getting the long term MF rebuild right over hoping that a desperate short term option helps. Especially if that stop gap option diverts funds from our priority targets.
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I think you're trying to give the club a lot of grace here.

The risk is that Casemiro gets injured and we miss out on the CL as a result. That would result in a considerable loss of funds, reputation and a reduced appeal for players and top end managers. That's not an unlikely risk so if it does occur and we haven't brought anyone in it'll be due to an active decision by the club.

Hopefully it doesn't and we qualify for the CL and the gamble will have paid off saving 10-20 mil perhaps. Risk mitigation is a big aspect of management and I'm not convinced they've made the best choice. Too much is at stake in my view.
 
would be amazed to see this position neglected again in the summer. Could make the argument that we could be fine if we literally just bought only CMs this summer window if we added 3 high quality CM options
 
Smores said:
I think you're trying to give the club a lot of grace here.

The risk is that Casemiro gets injured and we miss out on the CL as a result. That would result in a considerable loss of funds, reputation and a reduced appeal for players and top end managers. That's not an unlikely risk so if it does occur and we haven't brought anyone in it'll be due to an active decision by the club.

Hopefully it doesn't and we qualify for the CL and the gamble will have paid off saving 10-20 mil perhaps. Risk mitigation is a big aspect of management and I'm not convinced they've made the best choice. Too much is at stake in my view.
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I don’t disagree with any of that - of course there’s a risk to not getting someone in. But there are also real obstacles to being able to get the players you want in the January window.
 
Alex Scott had another really good game on the weekend. I posted a week or two back saying that I can't picture him as a Utd player (for no reason, just gut feel), but I'm starting to come around to it.

If we were to sign him, I think he could end up being a possible long-term Bruno replacement. Has the work-rate and defensive output, technically he's very solid, has very good feet and ball carrying, just needs to improve his final pass and he could be top class. He's only 22 which is easy to forget, and when you consider where Bruno was at 22 (Sampdoria/1st season at Sporting), Scott is already ahead of him doing what he is doing in the toughest league in the world.

I don't see him as a exact like-for-like with Bruno as a 10, but more of an attacking 8 with excellent defensive work who could play alongside Mainoo and Baleba/Anderson in more of a 433.
 
daba said:
think he could end up being a possible long-term Bruno replacement. Has the work-rate and defensive output, technically he's very solid, has very good feet and ball carrying, just needs to improve his final pass and he could be top class. He's only 22 which is easy to forget, and when you consider where Bruno was at 22 (Sampdoria/1st season at Sporting), Scott is already ahead of him doing what he is doing in the toughest league in the world.

I don't see him as a exact like-for-like with Bruno as a 10, but more of an attacking 8 with excellent defensive work who could play alongside Mainoo and Baleba/Anderson in more of a 433.
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Really like him, but not as a a Bruno-replacement. Option for Anderson/Mateus Fernandes.

If Bruno leave this summer we should be bold and try for Morgan Rogers. Not a like-for-like replacement either, but pace and power.
 
We should be looking at Sander Berge as a cheaper option. Very solid player who would surely cost less than 50m

West Ham’s Fernandez is also a very good CM

Supplement with Anderson if possible. I’m not totally convinced by Baleba
 
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Mateus would be a very solid choice alongside Anderson and Mainoo to rotate in that two holding roles underneath Bruno or whoever takes the 10 role if he leaves this summer

he's got bite and athleticism along with he looks decent on the ball without trying to overcomplicate things
 
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