Charly Musonda Jr. | Chelsea player on loan at Real Betis

DWelbz19

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He's doing great again today. Wilmots is even in attendance.
 

UweBein

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According to transfermarkt he is worth less than a mil. Worth a punt, Mr. Wenger
 

Brightonian

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In terms of producing talent (rather than whether that talent actually gets used in the senior side), Chelsea's academy has been at least on a par with ours and Spurs' over the last few seasons. Crazy to think that none of the likes of Ake, Loftus-Cheek, Musonda, Izzy Brown, Solanke, Baker et al has broken into the first team for any significant spell of games yet.

They'll all shine on loan, whether at Vitesse or elsewhere, then eventually be sold for a decent profit.
 

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He's doing great again today. Wilmots is even in attendance.
Been taken down. :( Any chance of finding a working one?

Got the assist for Betis' second goal apparently. Their form has improved since he joined them on loan
 

Damien

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In terms of producing talent (rather than whether that talent actually gets used in the senior side), Chelsea's academy has been at least on a par with ours and Spurs' over the last few seasons. Crazy to think that none of the likes of Ake, Loftus-Cheek, Musonda, Izzy Brown, Solanke, Baker et al has broken into the first team for any significant spell of games yet.

They'll all shine on loan, whether at Vitesse or elsewhere, then eventually be sold for a decent profit.
Yeah. Think Abramovich will be hoping that Conte gives at least some of them a chance as they deserve it.
 

DWelbz19

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Been taken down. :( Any chance of finding a working one?
Got the assist for Betis' second goal apparently. Their form has improved since he joined them on loan
Really? Working for me. Try this;
In terms of producing talent (rather than whether that talent actually gets used in the senior side), Chelsea's academy has been at least on a par with ours and Spurs' over the last few seasons. Crazy to think that none of the likes of Ake, Loftus-Cheek, Musonda, Izzy Brown, Solanke, Baker et al has broken into the first team for any significant spell of games yet.
Precisely what I was arguing against some ardent Mou supporters but it's all 'if they're good enough they'll get games!1' apparently.
 

Damien

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Really? Working for me. Try this;
Precisely what I was arguing against some ardent Mou supporters but it's all 'if they're good enough they'll get games!1' apparently.
Said it was taken down due to DMCA (the twitter clip). Can see the vid thanks, excellent cross.

Very talented. He's bit rough round the edges in certain aspects but getting him in on loan has been the best thing Betis have done.
 

DWelbz19

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His dribbling is quite remarkable too, the replay shows his quick feet really well. Being so small and slight must help a lot in that sense because he seems incredibly agile.
 

prarek

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Really good dribbler. Needs to work on his passing. Also loses the ball quite often but that is expected for a young winger. He's added a real threat down the left for Betis. He can learn a lot from old man Joaquin who used to be quite the dribbler himself back in his days. Every trick in the book.
 

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Played every minute of every game so far.
 

Damien

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:lol: Which player is that?
 

prarek

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:lol: Which player is that?
Álvaro Cejudo. I don't think Chelsea will fall for that though.
 

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Hope the club know what they're doing with this kid. Don't want another De Bruyne situation. Think that decision was 100% down to Mou, though.

Only thing to worry about if we bring him back too soon is his physique. I know small players have been thriving in the PL recently (Silva, Cazrola, Hazard, Mata) but Charly looks even smaller than all of them. His body reminds me a bit of Raheem Sterling's but Sterling is deceptively strong.
 

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Only thing to worry about if we bring him back too soon is his physique. I know small players have been thriving in the PL recently (Silva, Cazrola, Hazard, Mata) but Charly looks even smaller than all of them. His body reminds me a bit of Raheem Sterling's but Sterling is deceptively strong.
Yeah, I agree with you on that.
 

prarek

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Hope the club know what they're doing with this kid. Don't want another De Bruyne situation. Think that decision was 100% down to Mou, though.

Only thing to worry about if we bring him back too soon is his physique. I know small players have been thriving in the PL recently (Silva, Cazrola, Hazard, Mata) but Charly looks even smaller than all of them. His body reminds me a bit of Raheem Sterling's but Sterling is deceptively strong.
He will get stronger. And the premier league is not as physical as it used to be. Gary said that he did not find much difference in physicality between the two leagues.
 

Orc

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He will get stronger. And the premier league is not as physical as it used to be. Gary said that he did not find much difference in physicality between the two leagues.
That may be true for some positions but look at Hazard who plays in the same area. He's the most fouled player in the league since he's been here and gets kicked to shreds every match. Luckily Eden has a very powerful build and has mostly been able to deal with it. Not really the case with Musonda.
 

prarek

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That may be true for some positions but look at Hazard who plays in the same area. He's the most fouled player in the league since he's been here and gets kicked to shreds every match. Luckily Eden has a very powerful build and has mostly been able to deal with it. Not really the case with Musonda.
I know it's only 4 games but Musonda is getting fouled more than twice as much as Hazard. Obviously Hazard is stronger. I'm sure Musonda can get stronger too if given the right nurturing. This is where Chelsea don't really have a great track record..
 

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Precisely what I was arguing against some ardent Mou supporters but it's all 'if they're good enough they'll get games!1' apparently.
There's no winning that argument until it's too late. It will all be 'Should we just settle for becoming Southampton? We're Manchester United and we have to be winning trophies and Mourinho guarantees that.' Then four years from now the team won't have a single academy graduate in it and they'll tell us its because our academy's crap and doesn't produce top talents.
 

limerickcitykid

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In terms of producing talent (rather than whether that talent actually gets used in the senior side), Chelsea's academy has been at least on a par with ours and Spurs' over the last few seasons. Crazy to think that none of the likes of Ake, Loftus-Cheek, Musonda, Izzy Brown, Solanke, Baker et al has broken into the first team for any significant spell of games yet.

They'll all shine on loan, whether at Vitesse or elsewhere, then eventually be sold for a decent profit.
Honestly that is even being a bit generous to us and Spurs, Chelsea's academy is fecking stacked. There is an endless list of them that I'd love to see here.
 

RaptorSlo

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In terms of producing talent (rather than whether that talent actually gets used in the senior side), Chelsea's academy has been at least on a par with ours and Spurs' over the last few seasons. Crazy to think that none of the likes of Ake, Loftus-Cheek, Musonda, Izzy Brown, Solanke, Baker et al has broken into the first team for any significant spell of games yet.

They'll all shine on loan, whether at Vitesse or elsewhere, then eventually be sold for a decent profit.
Producing?? They're buying like 50 young players per year at 18+ age. And most of them are quickly loaned out, so their only link to Chelsea is as a middleman.
 

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Honestly that is even being a bit generous to us and Spurs, Chelsea's academy is fecking stacked. There is an endless list of them that I'd love to see here.
Familiarity makes you underrate ours. Don't forget they won the U21 league once in the last three years but we won it twice, and we're on target to take it again with a very young side, while they're in seventh with 2/3rds as many points even if they win all three games in hand. They may have the edge on the talent, but it's close. We're closer to them than Spurs are to us. It's a shame LVG's youngster spree couldn't have come a year and change earlier, when Januzaj was the premier emerging talent, Pereira the 'very-young-ster' and the likes of Pearson, Rothwell and Wilson the lads coming into contention. Not that the generation beneath them are lacking, just that I feel we've sort of wasted the ones I thought would really get their chance when Van Gaal first rocked up.
 
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limerickcitykid

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Familiarity makes you underrate ours. Don't forget they won the U21 league once in the last three years but we won it twice, and we're on target to take it again with a very young side, while they're in seventh with 2/3rds as many points even if they win all three games in hand. They may have the edge on the talent, but it's close. We're closer to them than Spurs are to us. It's a shame LVG's youngster spree couldn't have come a year over, when Januzaj was the premier emerging talent, Pereira the 'very-young-ster' and the likes of Pearson, Rothwell and Wilson the lads coming into contention. Not that the generation beneath them are lacking, just that I feel we've sort of wasted the ones I thought would really get their chance when Van Gaal first rocked up.
Maybe, but I do rate our academy very highly, I just think Chelsea's is the strongest atm. They also send out their players on loan younger than we do so that makes their u21 side weaker. The top level of talent in each academy is probably even enough, they take the edge with their depth of talent where recently we seemed to just focus on a small group of really talented players for each age group. But then again only a select few end up getting a chance anyway so that could be a bit irrelevant. I certainly think some of the likes of TFM, Williams, Tuanzebe, Gribbin etc. are as good as you'll find at Chelsea or anywhere.
 

limerickcitykid

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Producing?? They're buying like 50 young players per year at 18+ age. And most of them are quickly loaned out, so their only link to Chelsea is as a middleman.
He obviously isn't counting those ones. The likes of Loftus-Cheek, Dasilva, Tammy Abraham, Dom Solanke, Swift, Baker etc. all joined at a young age. They've also brought in a lot from abroad at 16 like Musonda and Ake.
 

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Maybe, but I do rate our academy very highly, I just think Chelsea's is the strongest atm. They also send out their players on loan younger than we do so that makes their u21 side weaker. The top level of talent in each academy is probably even enough, they take the edge with their depth of talent where recently we seemed to just focus on a small group of really talented players for each age group. But then again only a select few end up getting a chance anyway so that could be a bit irrelevant. I certainly think some of the likes of TFM, Williams, Tuanzebe, Gribbin etc. are as good as you'll find at Chelsea or anywhere.
Fair enough, I agree with all that. I think our top talents are as good as theirs, but you make a good point that they seem to have significantly more depth of talent, particularly the 'second tier' sort of players. Then again, that's because they've set up a model where they can loan them out en masse, with reliable game time (for the Vitesse boys anyway), and don't have to worry too much about whether they'll be good enough for the first team. Whereas we couldn't buy a useful loan spell most of the time, and have to focus on a smaller pool of players but with a greater intent of trying to get lots of them into first-team contention.

It is interesting. I'm not sure they currently have a defensive player to equal TFM (taking into account age and development stage), and in terms of pure ability Januzaj isthe equal of any of their forwards. But I can think of a good three 'Rashfords' amongst their current U21s and loanees. What we're really showing with our young debutants at the moment (and Lingard) is that the talent bar is not quite as high as people thought it was if you actually commit to giving them a real go (or are forced to do so). Spurs and Southampton have been proving that for a few years too. You don't have to be a Pogba to have a potential future as a regular first-teamer... if you're a Pogba, you have a future as a FIFA World XI player. To potentially be a United starter, you need to be a Rashford or a Borthwick-Jackson, which isn't quite the same kettle of fish.
 

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This is wonderful. We have to pay attention to him now. Have to!
 

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He obviously isn't counting those ones. The likes of Loftus-Cheek, Dasilva, Tammy Abraham, Dom Solanke, Swift, Baker etc. all joined at a young age. They've also brought in a lot from abroad at 16 like Musonda and Ake.
Yep, which is something we do almost as much as them. People don't like the idea of cynical Mourinho-built Chelsea having a good academy without somehow cheating, but the way they use these youngsters doesn't change that broadly speaking they're going about creating and getting them the same way we are. You have to acknowledge that the academy and the senior set-up are distinct entities.
 

Gol123

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Fair enough, I agree with all that. I think our top talents are as good as theirs, but you make a good point that they seem to have significantly more depth of talent, particularly the 'second tier' sort of players. Then again, that's because they've set up a model where they can loan them out en masse, with reliable game time (for the Vitesse boys anyway), and don't have to worry too much about whether they'll be good enough for the first team. Whereas we couldn't buy a useful loan spell most of the time, and have to focus on a smaller pool of players but with a greater intent of trying to get lots of them into first-team contention.

It is interesting. I'm not sure they currently have a defensive player to equal TFM (taking into account age and development stage), and in terms of pure ability Januzaj isthe equal of any of their forwards. But I can think of a good three 'Rashfords' amongst their current U21s and loanees. What we're really showing with our young debutants at the moment (and Lingard) is that the talent bar is not quite as high as people thought it was if you actually commit to giving them a real go (or are forced to do so). Spurs and Southampton have been proving that for a few years too. You don't have to be a Pogba to have a potential future as a regular first-teamer... if you're a Pogba, you have a future as a FIFA World XI player. To potentially be a United starter, you need to be a Rashford or a Borthwick-Jackson, which isn't quite the same kettle of fish.
Christensen is a 19 year old on loan at Borussia Monchengladbach and is one of their best players/defender. Ake has been playing comfortably at a premier league level since he was 17 in multiple positions.

Musonda on loan right now is arguably as talented as Januzaj (Although he isn't really a Chelsea youth product we have still developed him through a crucial stage of his development).


Aina is also a ridiculously assured player at all levels he has played at and Traore is the best of the rest.
 

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Christensen is a 19 year old on loan at Borussia Monchengladbach and is one of their best players/defender. Ake has been playing comfortably at a premier league level since he was 17 in multiple positions.

Musonda on loan right now is arguably as talented as Januzaj (Although he isn't really a Chelsea youth product we have still developed him through a crucial stage of his development).


Aina is also a ridiculously assured player at all levels he has played at and Traore is the best of the rest.
I don't see your point. Read the full string of posts, it was a discussion. I don't think we're disagreeing.
 

Gol123

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I don't see your point. Read the full string of posts, it was a discussion. I don't think we're disagreeing.
You said you don't think we had a defender as good as TFM. I named two that may be.

You also said you weren't sure that we had a player as naturally talented as Januzaj. I named Musonda as potentially as good.

I agree that both clubs have ridiculous amounts of talent in their club. Which is why I think we don't need to spend too much money this summer.
 

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I agree that both clubs have ridiculous amounts of talent in their club. Which is why I think we don't need to spend too much money this summer.
You will though. Not because Conté is a Mourinho or anything, but even managers who give young players chances don't come into a new club and immediately gamble on them. Look at Van Gaal, one of the most youth-friendly 'big club' managers out there, in our first season. There's no way for Conté to feel he knows the youngsters well enough to take that risk. The second season is the one where you'll see whether or not he's willing to give some of these kids their chances. You'll have to hope you haven't moved too many on by then - one or two of our brightest appear to have missed the boat because of that season's delay in a similar situation.
 

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You will though. Not because Conté is a Mourinho or anything, but even managers who give young players chances don't come into a new club and immediately gamble on them. Look at Van Gaal, one of the most youth-friendly 'big club' managers out there, in our first season. There's no way for Conté to feel he knows the youngsters well enough to take that risk. The second season is the one where you'll see whether or not he's willing to give some of these kids their chances. You'll have to hope you haven't moved too many on by then - one or two of our brightest appear to have missed the boat because of that season's delay in a similar situation.
Luckily most of our best are in long term prosperous loan deals currently. Will allow Conte some time to evaluate them.
 

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Hope the club know what they're doing with this kid. Don't want another De Bruyne situation. Think that decision was 100% down to Mou, though.

Only thing to worry about if we bring him back too soon is his physique. I know small players have been thriving in the PL recently (Silva, Cazrola, Hazard, Mata) but Charly looks even smaller than all of them. His body reminds me a bit of Raheem Sterling's but Sterling is deceptively strong.
If Juan Mata can make it in the Premier League, anyone can. The strength and pace of an anemic girl scout.
 

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His dribbling ability as absolutely ridiculous.
 

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Luckily most of our best are in long term prosperous loan deals currently. Will allow Conte some time to evaluate them.
True, we never had that luxury. But then it potentially lends itself better to the Chelsea 'talent shop' approach than to actually trying to create first team players, since the best way to get youngsters into the first team, as we're seeing now at United, is for them to be around when the opportunity presents itself. The productiveness of these loan spells arguably also works against them, since Chelsea are unlikely to recall Musonda from Betis, for example, to cover an injury crisis. But that's often the only way for a player to get a proper chance at a top club these days.

So possibly there's a flavour of method to the madness of United not setting up something like you guys have with Vitesse, because I sense that really a lot of the decision-makers prefer to just have fewer youngsters but to keep them around as much as possible.
 

Gol123

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True, we never had that luxury. But then it potentially lends itself better to the Chelsea 'talent shop' approach than to actually trying to create first team players, since the best way to get youngsters into the first team, as we're seeing now at United, is for them to be around when the opportunity presents itself. The productiveness of these loan spells arguably also works against them, since Chelsea are unlikely to recall Musonda from Betis, for example, to cover an injury crisis. But that's often the only way for a player to get a proper chance at a top club these days.

So possibly there's a flavour of method to the madness of United not setting up something like you guys have with Vitesse, because I sense that really a lot of the decision-makers prefer to just have fewer youngsters but to keep them around as much as possible.
The loan system is hard to judge really. Its a do or die situation and usually only the best mentally come out from it as better players. In that sense, whilst it has destroyed a lot of Chelsea youngsters careers, I think it also weeds out the weak players who don't have the mentality to be the best.