Chelsea 2020/21 - General discussion

Kostov

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To be fair there was nothing challenging with some of their signings.

Werner - paid the release clause
Silva - free transfer
Havertz - paid a club record £75m (of which he’s looked nothing like that worth so far)
Chilwell - £50m taken to the cleaners
Mendy - just paid over the odds for him to panic replace Kepa who they paid £70m for.

I’d understand if they had actually got some great deals done, but only Ziyech is potentially a great bit of business.
So why do we target so challenging signings for a start? Identifying and going for the players actually possible to buy is part of that same process. Same was previously said about Kante, while we went and bought Matic, I am sure you can see a patern here. There management is clearly better imo.
 

El Zoido

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He’s bought almost an entire first XI. Deliver the league or bust, absolutely no excuses. You don’t replace most of your team to finish third. Said it in another thread but I think Poch will end up there.
 

WeePat

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He’s bought almost an entire first XI. Deliver the league or bust, absolutely no excuses. You don’t replace most of your team to finish third. Said it in another thread but I think Poch will end up there.
It may be deliver the league or bust, but it's certainly not deliver the league this season or bust. Even if Lampard fails to gel this team into a functioning unit and loses his job, the squad is now well set up for someone like Tuchel or Nagelsmann or even Poch, to come in and work with.
 

GameOn

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Must be one hellava impersonator to score in the numbers he achieved in Germany.

Far far too many make snap judgments about players without knowing any of the background and you clearly fit 100% into that category.

Remind me how things played out for Ronaldo in his first season ?
Leipzig's system was perfect for Werner. As for his goal numbers: He had one season, where he really scored a lot of goals and that was last year (28 goals in the league).

This was an outlier though. Many other average to slightly-above-average strikers have had seasons like that in the Bundesliga.

I doubt anyone would consider Mario Gomez (28 goals in 10/11, 26 goals in 11/12), Klaas Jan-Huntelaar (29 goals in 11/12), Stefan Kießling (25 goals in 12/13) or Anthony Modeste (25 goals in 16/17) world-class strikers. Those are just some examples btw.

His goal numbers for Germany (12 goals in 30 games) aren't impressive at all for a striker.

Even when you watch him closely, you just see that he's not very good in a lot of areas (first touch, passing, finishing, vision etc.).

He has his strenghts (pace, timing his runs), but he's far from being a worldclass talent. There is a reason why very few people in Germany actually rate him highly and it has nothing to do with him moving to Chelsea.
 

Chief123

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Must be one hellava impersonator to score in the numbers he achieved in Germany.
Lukaku has had great numbers throughout his career. We were delighted to see the back of him. If your hopes are relying on stats, then you may be disappointed.
 

Pow

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Leipzig's system was perfect for Werner. As for his goal numbers: He had one season, where he really scored a lot of goals and that was last year (28 goals in the league).

This was an outlier though. Many other average to slightly-above-average strikers have had seasons like that in the Bundesliga.

I doubt anyone would consider Mario Gomez (28 goals in 10/11, 26 goals in 11/12), Klaas Jan-Huntelaar (29 goals in 11/12), Stefan Kießling (25 goals in 12/13) or Anthony Modeste (25 goals in 16/17) world-class strikers. Those are just some examples btw.

His goal numbers for Germany (12 goals in 30 games) aren't impressive at all for a striker.

Even when you watch him closely, you just see that he's not very good in a lot of areas (first touch, passing, finishing, vision etc.).

He has his strenghts (pace, timing his runs), but he's far from being a worldclass talent. There is a reason why very few people in Germany actually rate him highly and it has nothing to do with him moving to Chelsea.
? His league numbers alone for leipzig in the league alone are 21, 13, 16, 28 which for the lead up to being 24 are good numbers
3 out of his 4 seasons there he hit at least 20 goals total with his lowest season total being 19
wheres the outlier ?
 

Valencia Shin Crosses

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To be fair there was nothing challenging with some of their signings.

Werner - paid the release clause
Silva - free transfer
Havertz - paid a club record £75m (of which he’s looked nothing like that worth so far)
Chilwell - £50m taken to the cleaners
Mendy - just paid over the odds for him to panic replace Kepa who they paid £70m for.

I’d understand if they had actually got some great deals done, but only Ziyech is potentially a great bit of business.
I'm not talking about whether or not all the signings will be successful, and if you are talking taken to the cleaners with Chillwell then we can say the same things about our club with Maguire and AWB. But I'm simply saying doing efficient and swift business in identifying targets and securing them for a price the club is comfortable with (which is all that actually matters if we are honest) is a huge advantage compared to our constant monitoring and talks.
 

Loon

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No hanging about while other team's COVID caution (and ineptitude) ensures they are gonna try and buy their way back to the big table.
 

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I think Abraham and Werner should play together. I like that partnership on paper.

There is a place for both and also Havertz, Ziyech / Mount behind them in a 4:2:2:2.
 

Rajiztar

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? His league numbers alone for leipzig in the league alone are 21, 13, 16, 28 which for the lead up to being 24 are good numbers
3 out of his 4 seasons there he hit at least 20 goals total with his lowest season total being 19
wheres the outlier ?
Werner will flop because he is only very good in pace and timing his runs. :lol::lol::lol:.
 

GameOn

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Werner will flop because he is only very good in pace and timing his runs. :lol::lol::lol:.
That's the precise description of Werner.

But I guess someone, who has watched about 50+ full games of Werner and doesn't have any issues with him or Chelsea, can't make a better assessment of his abilities than Chelsea fans, who have watched him in about 3 or 4 full games so far.

I dont think he'll "flop" btw.

He just won't ever get anywhere close to the level some fans expect him to reach. He's just a solid striker. Nothing more, nothing less.
 

duffer

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But I guess someone, who has watched about 50+ full games of Werner and doesn't have any issues with him or Chelsea...
For someone with "no issues" you do seem to enjoy shitting on Werner at every opportunity, looking at your post history.
 

Pow

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That's the precise description of Werner.

But I guess someone, who has watched about 50+ full games of Werner and doesn't have any issues with him or Chelsea, can't make a better assessment of his abilities than Chelsea fans, who have watched him in about 3 or 4 full games so far.

I dont think he'll "flop" btw.

He just won't ever get anywhere close to the level some fans expect him to reach. He's just a solid striker. Nothing more, nothing less.
Funny thats the same skillset as 100 plus pl winning jamie vardy and hes managed to do ok in the league.
What level are fans expecting him to be ?
 

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So, Werner is definitely not a player with "Barca DNA" and I understand why Bayern deliberately passed on him. However, I think this is taken a little bit too far. Reading some posts in here you might think he's a pace merchant and doesn't have much to offer besides that. I don't think that's the case and this assessment is debunked pretty quickly when you actually see him play. His dribbling isn't fancy but very efficient and he's fully able to beat a player or two. Same goes for his touch, finishing and passing. Nothing crazily good but it definitely feels wrong to name those aspects as weaknesses.

I also don't think he's perfect to lead the line, so I expect a fluid attacking block from Chelsea this season. Havertz worked quite well with a similar striker (Volland) of far lesser quality. Werner making many runs on the wings usually opens spaces in the box area that midfielders could attack and that's one of Havertz' strengths. Will be interesting to see how Chelsea end up playing. Werner is definitely a very unique type of player. Can't think of a similar striker or winger, currently.
 

DJ Jeff

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Funny thats the same skillset as 100 plus pl winning jamie vardy and hes managed to do ok in the league.
What level are fans expecting him to be ?
You underrate Vardy, the guy's scored some incredible goals. His mentality is on another level to 90% of strikers too.
 

GameOn

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For someone with "no issues" you do seem to enjoy shitting on Werner at every opportunity, looking at your post history.
I'm simply trying to give fans, who haven't seen him in many games so far and who seem to mistake him for a completely different player, some perspective.

He's ok as a striker, never said anything else. He's just not someone, who has the talent/skills to become a worldclass striker a la Suarez or Lewandowski.
If you're fine with someone, whose ceiling is probably around "Jamie Vardy level" (albeit a different kind of player/skillset), you'll be happy with him.
 

Zehner

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I'm simply trying to give fans, who haven't seen him in many games so far and who seem to mistake him for a completely different player, some perspective.

He's ok as a striker, never said anything else. He's just not someone, who has the talent/skills to become a worldclass striker a la Suarez or Lewandowski.
If you're fine with someone, whose ceiling is probably around "Jamie Vardy level" (albeit a different kind of player/skillset), you'll be happy with him.
Now that's a severe understatement again. No dig at Vardy but Werner has much more to his locker. He's a much better dribbler than him for example and Werner has already more career assists than Vardy despite playing ~3000 minutes less professional football. And Werner averages a goal every 173 minutes, Vardy every 172 minutes so you could argue that Werner is already the better striker and his best years are yet to come.
 

duffer

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I'm simply trying to give fans, who haven't seen him in many games so far and who seem to mistake him for a completely different player, some perspective.

He's ok as a striker, never said anything else. He's just not someone, who has the talent/skills to become a worldclass striker a la Suarez or Lewandowski.
If you're fine with someone, whose ceiling is probably around "Jamie Vardy level" (albeit a different kind of player/skillset), you'll be happy with him.
Hmmm...

Werner is so bad, it's almost comical how overrated he is by people, that didn't watch more than bis highlight tape on YouTube.

You think he is "so bad", that's fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but it certainly looks like you have some sort of issue with him given your posts recently.

As for "Jamie Vardy level", I'll take that anyday of the week. Jamie Vardy has been excellent in the prem for years..
 

GameOn

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I'll be the first one to admit that this was an overreaction on my part (after reading a lot of Werner wanking), that shouldn't have happened.

Can't go back now though, you got me there.

I fully stand by my former assessment: Solid striker with the ceiling of Vardy (in terms of impact). Not a worldclass talent though.
 

Rajiztar

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That's the precise description of Werner.

But I guess someone, who has watched about 50+ full games of Werner and doesn't have any issues with him or Chelsea, can't make a better assessment of his abilities than Chelsea fans, who have watched him in about 3 or 4 full games so far.

I dont think he'll "flop" btw.

He just won't ever get anywhere close to the level some fans expect him to reach. He's just a solid striker. Nothing more, nothing less.
I saw him in two games he played for chelsea and two games he played for Germany. I don't need to watch his other games to understand his game. What I saw was what I want from a striker. He was good at finishing, he was good at passing, impressive in pressing, have pace to burn .

Only draw back for him is he is not a battering ram of a striker who could bulldoze defenders ala Drogba or Costa.
 

WeePat

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Good thread. Obviously not a big name keeper, but even just doing the basics well and just making normal saves will help us gain extra points this season.

 

TheMagicFoolBus

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Mendy is our most important signing. Obviously others we've gotten are flashier, but he represents the biggest upgrade of any single position we had last year.

Yes he's prone to giving up rebounds, yes he's prone to diving too far (especially ironic given Kepa's propensity to not even bother diving), and yes he's untested at the highest level, but compared to what we've got he might as well be Lev Yashin. He's very good in the air, very good at shot stopping generally, and his distribution is also very decent, although generally only on his right foot as his left is somewhat wanting.

There were murmurings that Roma have enquired about a loan for Kepa; here's hoping that pans out.
 

SirReginald

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Mendy is our most important signing. Obviously others we've gotten are flashier, but he represents the biggest upgrade of any single position we had last year.

Yes he's prone to giving up rebounds, yes he's prone to diving too far (especially ironic given Kepa's propensity to not even bother diving), and yes he's untested at the highest level, but compared to what we've got he might as well be Lev Yashin. He's very good in the air, very good at shot stopping generally, and his distribution is also very decent, although generally only on his right foot as his left is somewhat wanting.

There were murmurings that Roma have enquired about a loan for Kepa; here's hoping that pans out.
I agree. If his form on paper carries over to us this season then I think he will be up there for golden glove this season which would be a huge boost for us. 74% save rate is excellent and being 6 foot 6 and not being afraid to come for crosses takes away one of our frailties.

I also think Thiago Silvia will improve our organization once he is up to speed, another one of our issues. Whilst our defenders alone aren’t bad, they don’t communicate and it’s even more telling in an empty stadium.
 

sammsky1

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Mendy is our most important signing. Obviously others we've gotten are flashier, but he represents the biggest upgrade of any single position we had last year.

Yes he's prone to giving up rebounds, yes he's prone to diving too far (especially ironic given Kepa's propensity to not even bother diving), and yes he's untested at the highest level, but compared to what we've got he might as well be Lev Yashin. He's very good in the air, very good at shot stopping generally, and his distribution is also very decent, although generally only on his right foot as his left is somewhat wanting.

There were murmurings that Roma have enquired about a loan for Kepa; here's hoping that pans out.
How did you get the scouting on Kepa so wrong?!?! How do you know this guy won’t fall short?
 

shahzy

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He’s bought almost an entire first XI. Deliver the league or bust, absolutely no excuses. You don’t replace most of your team to finish third. Said it in another thread but I think Poch will end up there.
You have to be pretty naive to think he can implement a playstyle, a culture amongst a group of players within 1 season. To make a great meal you need the right ingredients but then you also need the time to cook the ingredients. The difference in football the ingredients are the players and the time to get them all gelled together playing a certain way is longer.
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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How did you get the scouting on Kepa so wrong?!?! How do you know this guy won’t fall short?
Kepa wasn't scouted. He was a panic buy at the last minute because Courtois fecked us over by saying for months he'd play out the last year of his deal only to refuse to train with a week left in the transfer window.

Furthermore, that was at a time when Lollichon's influence was on the wane - Courtois didn't like him and as such we relied on Sarri's staff for recommendations.

Obviously it was still a blunder but given the specific circumstances it was understandable - he was young, good with his feet, and almost bought by Real Madrid. Don't think anyone could have predicted the catastrophe it's turned out to be, though.

As to whether Mendy might fall short, by all the metrics he is solidly above average in all departments and has been since he got to Ligue 1. The big difference with Kepa is that Kepa's underlying numbers at Bilbao were also mediocre - we bought him with the hopes he'd develop. Here, we're buying something far closer to the finished article, and one who comes personally recommended by Cech. We don't need Mendy to be a world beater, we just need at minimum an average goalkeeper. Last year we gave up 13 goals more than what an average keeper would be expected to concede; that's historically bad. Put it this way - we're going from the goalkeeper who was dead last in save percentage in the top 5 leagues to the guy who was 9th last year. That's a colossal upgrade any way you slice it, even if he regresses a bit.
 
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Dancfc

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Kepa wasn't scouted. He was a panic buy at the last minute because Courtois fecked us over by saying for months he'd play out the last year of his deal only to refuse to train with a week left in the transfer window.
Wasn't the story Pepe Reina reccomended him to Sarri after playing national team with him?
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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Wasn't the story Pepe Reina reccomended him to Sarri after playing national team with him?
I believe that's correct - certainly we didn't have time to scout him properly. This is opposed to Mendy, who The Athletic reported today we were recommended by Lollichon a few months after Kepa signed (so closing in on 2 years ago).
 

Cheimoon

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Kepa wasn't scouted. He was a panic buy at the last minute because Courtois fecked us over by saying for months he'd play out the last year of his deal only to refuse to train with a week left in the transfer window.
Is the bolded really true? I thought top clubs were always scouting players for all positions, to have succession and back-up plans for their current squad. Or maybe Chelsea's preferred choices were all unavailable by the time Courtois left?
 

sammsky1

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Kepa wasn't scouted. He was a panic buy at the last minute because Courtois fecked us over by saying for months he'd play out the last year of his deal only to refuse to train with a week left in the transfer window.

Furthermore, that was at a time when Lollichon's influence was on the wane - Courtois didn't like him and as such we relied on Sarri's staff for recommendations.

Obviously it was still a blunder but given the specific circumstances it was understandable - he was young, good with his feet, and almost bought by Real Madrid. Don't think anyone could have predicted the catastrophe it's turned out to be, though.

As to whether Mendy might fall short, by all the metrics he is solidly above average in all departments and has been since he got to Ligue 1. The big difference with Kepa is that Kepa's underlying numbers at Bilbao were also mediocre - we bought him with the hopes he'd develop. Here, we're buying something far closer to the finished article, and one who comes personally recommended by Cech. We don't need Mendy to be a world beater, we just need at minimum an average goalkeeper. Last year we gave up 13 goals more than what an average keeper would be expected to concede; that's historically bad. Put it this way - we're going from the goalkeeper who was dead last in save percentage in the top 5 leagues to the guy who was 9th last year. That's a colossal upgrade any way you slice it, even if he regresses a bit.
Interesting. Didn’t realise Kepa was sooo bad! Will be interesting to observe.
 

Blackwidow

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I saw him in two games he played for chelsea and two games he played for Germany. I don't need to watch his other games to understand his game. What I saw was what I want from a striker. He was good at finishing, he was good at passing, impressive in pressing, have pace to burn .

Only draw back for him is he is not a battering ram of a striker who could bulldoze defenders ala Drogba or Costa.
Werner at Leipzig did 13 pressures a match with a 24.6 success rate. Poulsen's was slightly worse - but he did 30 pressures per 90 minutes. He actually was the laziest of all Leipzig offensives and midfielders. You call that impressive?

First contact and passing - okay, maybe you have other standards than we have.

He is a good finisher, yes, and has pace - but I expect more from a striker and that are aspects that really are the difference between good strikers and top strikers...
 

Pow

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Is the bolded really true? I thought top clubs were always scouting players for all positions, to have succession and back-up plans for their current squad. Or maybe Chelsea's preferred choices were all unavailable by the time Courtois left?
We bid for Allison but he went to the scouse.
 

Rajiztar

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Werner at Leipzig did 13 pressures a match with a 24.6 success rate. Poulsen's was slightly worse - but he did 30 pressures per 90 minutes. He actually was the laziest of all Leipzig offensives and midfielders. You call that impressive?

First contact and passing - okay, maybe you have other standards than we have.

He is a good finisher, yes, and has pace - but I expect more from a striker and that are aspects that really are the difference between good strikers and top strikers...
I saw a hardworking striker in four games. Lazy if he is I don't know what you call about most strikers. He fondly called turbo timo for reason by fans but that reason is not lazy I am afraid.
 

Mount's Goatieson

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Is the bolded really true? I thought top clubs were always scouting players for all positions, to have succession and back-up plans for their current squad. Or maybe Chelsea's preferred choices were all unavailable by the time Courtois left?
We did bid for Allison but he wanted Liverpool instead and then there were latter reports that claimed we actually activated Oblak’s release clause but he wouldn't leave ATM. Then we panic bought the next best thing in Spain who was threatening to take DDG’s Spain No 1 spot.
 

Mount's Goatieson

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For someone with "no issues" you do seem to enjoy shitting on Werner at every opportunity, looking at your post history.
You think its just Werner? Check out his posts about Havertz :lol:
I think his problem is with Chelsea though not the players. They they had moved to a Barcelona or Juventus these “fair” and “accurate after watching 50 games ” assessments would have been very different.
 

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Werner at Leipzig did 13 pressures a match with a 24.6 success rate. Poulsen's was slightly worse - but he did 30 pressures per 90 minutes. He actually was the laziest of all Leipzig offensives and midfielders. You call that impressive?

First contact and passing - okay, maybe you have other standards than we have.

He is a good finisher, yes, and has pace - but I expect more from a striker and that are aspects that really are the difference between good strikers and top strikers...
He's obviously not as good technically as Lewandowski but this makes it sound like he's got a first touch and passing ability like Inzaghi. Think that goes too far. It's not worse than that of many top strikers just not on the same level as Lewandowski, Suarez or Benzema. But then again, those three were never as fast as Werner and never were as good at beating their defender in dribbles.

Thing is that Werner is very hard to compare since he's so unique. He's so good at taking on players that the only actual striker you can compare him with style-wise (not quality or talent, obviously) right now is probably Mbappe. Players like Aubameyang, Vardy or Haaland are similarly quick but interpret the striker role much more conservatively. I generally prefer that because I think Werner vacates the striker area too often in order to make runs on the wings but then again, 28 league goals speak a different language. I believe he generally has the abilities to play more conservatively, too, since he's actually quite strong and has a good all around game but the question is if you want to rob him of his biggest strength, the runs and the tempo dribbles.

Those are interesting stats, by the way, where did you get them from? Haven't seen them on the websites I usually visit, if I'm not mistaken.
 

Blackwidow

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The pressing data is from fbref.com
The page needs some time to get familiar with but offers a lot special data.
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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Is the bolded really true? I thought top clubs were always scouting players for all positions, to have succession and back-up plans for their current squad. Or maybe Chelsea's preferred choices were all unavailable by the time Courtois left?
Yeah we'd gone for Alisson and Oblak, but the lack of CL football was a huge obstacle. Also the timing for Courtois' stunt was an issue - in 2018, the PL had moved the transfer deadline to before the season, so we had all the pressure to get the deal done on an accelerated timeline that clubs on the continent didn't have to worry about.

We basically had to find a goalkeeper who was good with his feet to accommodate Sarri, had top 5 league experience, had a buyout clause, and would be willing to sign for a team in the Europa League. And all this had to be done in about a week. Ultimately our choices were very limited.

Interesting. Didn’t realise Kepa was sooo bad! Will be interesting to observe.
Yeah he recorded literally the lowest save percentage in the history of the PL last year - 54.5%. He's given up the most goals in the league from outside the area since he arrived in England. Chelsea had a better defence by expected goals than Liverpool did last year.

He's a total trainwreck.