Chelsea 2022/2023 - The new era

WeePat

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Chelsea next season, pre season with the new players in all injuries back they will be a force imo, Potter if he's still there which I think he will , has a massive chance of winning the league. Mydryk or whatever his name is wow he looks a player .
Steady on mate.
 

UsualSuspect

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Your net spend in the transfer window is nearly £400m, what are you talking about.

What these long ass contracts do is simply moving the problem further down the line. The debt on the books will still be there. At least by limiting contract terms it stops clubs from overextending.
That's like saying a 30 year bond on a house compared to a 20 year bond, is just moving 'the problem' further down the line. It's an extremely narrow way of describing the situation.
 

GoonerBear

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Yeah can't say I'd be too happy with some multi-club shenanigans even if it has potential to be beneficial for the club. It's just not good for football overall.

As for the second point, I believe the 'multi-club model' in Chelsea's case would probably be quite different to what City are doing. For them the 'City Football Group' clubs have very little to do with Man City themselves, and like you said it's more just increasing the overall brand value around the world and using that to increase their revenues.

For Chelsea, and this is according to Boehly himself from some interview he had last summer, the plan would be more in line with the Red Bull group (and that's probably why they even hired people with experience from the RB organisation like Vivell and Stewart). They could use Chelsea's scouting network to sign promising youngsters directly to the 'feeder club' and the ones who prove good enough they could then transfer to Chelsea for below market value prices, much like Red Bull are doing with Salzburg/Leipzig. In addition to that they could also, within the loan rules of course, send our own academy youngsters there to develop in an environment the club have total control over in deciding who manages the team, what kind of football the team plays and which players get selected. If the playing style for the feeder team had some similarities to how the Chelsea first team play, it would then be easier for these players to come back and slot right in as compared to being out on loan at some random clubs.

I definitely see why they'd want to do it and what the benefits to Chelsea could be if such a model was in place but still can't say I'm a fan of the idea.
Its why I'm intrigued to see how Chelsea work it.
In terms of bringing through players for City, I think we can all say that hasn't worked, but not sure of that's what it was intended for anyway. You mention the 2 Red Bull Clubs, and that works to a certain extent, because they aren't too far apart in the football chain. So loaning to Salzburg or buying from Salzburg is a logical step.

The thing with Chelsea is that you are an elite club, that buy the top players, and even a lot of your good academy players you have to sell because you have no space (Lamptey, Guehi, Tomori, Livramento etc). You buy from the Leipzig's, the Dortmund's, the Napoli's, the Monaco's etc. So I'm not sure what level of club you are looking to buy, but to make it worthwhile to loan players to you think it need to be a decent level, and it would maybe need to be a level up again so that they have players you'd actually buy for your first team. Would you buy from mid table teams in Austria, or Holland, or Belgium for instance?
 

terraloo

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Its why I'm intrigued to see how Chelsea work it.
In terms of bringing through players for City, I think we can all say that hasn't worked, but not sure of that's what it was intended for anyway. You mention the 2 Red Bull Clubs, and that works to a certain extent, because they aren't too far apart in the football chain. So loaning to Salzburg or buying from Salzburg is a logical step.

The thing with Chelsea is that you are an elite club, that buy the top players, and even a lot of your good academy players you have to sell because you have no space (Lamptey, Guehi, Tomori, Livramento etc). You buy from the Leipzig's, the Dortmund's, the Napoli's, the Monaco's etc. So I'm not sure what level of club you are looking to buy, but to make it worthwhile to loan players to you think it need to be a decent level, and it would maybe need to be a level up again so that they have players you'd actually buy for your first team.
Chelsea had 4 academy players feature on Saturday against Liverpool who had 2 As for not making space Yep to a degree that’s fair comment but even in the Fergie days Utd were producing players who didn’t quite make it at Utd but did more than ok elsewhere

How many did Arsenal have against Utd ? Think it was 2

As for City it’s easy to knock but the likes of Foden and Palmer are exceptional
 

charlenefan

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Remind me how many of your fans want a state/oil owner. The very reason there’s no poll on this site is because it’s a lot.
Would have preffered a Burnley and Wolfsburg legend but beggars can't be choosers.
It's literally your only come back to criticism isn't it, 'yeah but what about you'. You both haven't grown up at all in the years you've been members here
 

Dancfc

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It's literally your only come back to criticism isn't it, 'yeah but what about you'. You both haven't grown up at all in the years you've been members here
On the contrary, I've had perfectly civil and thought providing debates with people who went as far as saying Kante was overrated.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/unpopular-opinion-the-overrated-ngolo-kante.454671/

Sorry I don't extent the same courtesy to you but I draw a line at people who think Wan Bissaka is better than Reece James.
 

SirReginald

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It's literally your only come back to criticism isn't it, 'yeah but what about you'. You both haven't grown up at all in the years you've been members here
I’m not going to be drawn into you deflecting. If you don’t want to answer my reasonable question that’s fine.
 

Bluelion7

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I love to spend 60 million pounds on a player who is only great at one thing.
Good, because that will be the average soon.

In all seriousness there was more to it than that though.

People have been going “he was great at Brighton BUT…”

Well he didn’t have to do the things he does here without support. He had to cover the left middle with Jorgihno constantly getting over run.

He had to track back to cover for Koulibaliy who runs like a beaten horse and can’t handle not having a good CDM shield.

When we were able to play with Zakaria and Badiashile, Cucurella graded great.

He certainly isn’t one of the players I’m worried about. If he was 40 like City wanted to pay (which is a nothing difference really) then there wouldn’t be near the odd need to pile on.

I honestly think a lot of the people harping on him just don’t watch us much.
 
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GoonerBear

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Chelsea had 4 academy players feature on Saturday against Liverpool who had 2 As for not making space Yep to a degree that’s fair comment but even in the Fergie days Utd were producing players who didn’t quite make it at Utd but did more than ok elsewhere

How many did Arsenal have against Utd ? Think it was 2

As for City it’s easy to knock but the likes of Foden and Palmer are exceptional
Your missing my point. I'm not saying you don't have or use kids. I'm saying the opposite, you already have the best academy in the country, so much so you are overloaded with talent that can't get a game and are sold on to other Premiership clubs or clubs like AC Milan.

So, where does the satellite clubs come in? What level are the clubs going to have to be at to make loaning out the next Reece James, the next Mason Mounts worthwhile?
 

Bluelion7

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On one hand it does bug me that they are immediately acting as they are “cracking down” on Chelsea.

It annoys me that UEFA thinks it’s there business to get involved at all, because the relative financial health of the PL shouldn’t be punished for the ineptitude of other competitions, and they have zero business deciding how an organization should be run over and above the organizations own league.

Does that mean they will override the FA on visa issues that force us to pay more for certain players to begin with?


On the other hand… playing with the terms of contracts to stay competitive for teams that don’t have the funds to back them could get disastrous quickly.

But if teams are going to fail …. Let them fail?
 

Bluelion7

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Ah, the old multi club system, something that some Chelsea fans aren't even comfortable with.

I'm intrigued to see how you pull it off and what benefits you get from it, because I look at the City group for instance and don't see how it's benefited Man City's first team directly apart from 'spreading the brand' and perhaps allowing them to do some creative accounting.
Are you talking about the Chelsea fanbase? The Club? Or the owners?

I hate to break this to you but Boehly is working towards buying the Washington Commanders while everyone else is focusing on Chelsea spending.

He puts the right people and structure in place and then lets them do their job.

They started planning this when they put their first bid in for Chelsea in 2019, and they have a TON of multi-level, club feeder system experience.

Not in football, but the Dodgers are legendary for the system of teams, feeder teams, developmental pathways, and then the A through triple A teams all the way to the mothership.

They own half or more of the talent pipeline in South and Central America. And they love them, because while talent CAN get promoted through the pathways, they strive to win for the fans and keep a focus at each level.

It was by far the biggest, most ambitious, and expensive “multi tier” system ever put in place by a sports ownership group.

Taking that into account they immediately targeted front and back office staff with heavy experience in those models, and they already had excellent consultants on staff before the purchase.

I am literally just telling you the plan they are presenting as their “first phase”: first 7 years. It isn’t a secret.

You are free to believe they will have no idea how to accomplish it. I don’t think that’s a good bet, but it is your prerogative.
 

GoonerBear

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Are you talking about the Chelsea fanbase? The Club? Or the owners?

I hate to break this to you but Boehly is working towards buying the Washington Commanders while everyone else is focusing on Chelsea spending.

He puts the right people and structure in place and then lets them do their job.

They started planning this when they put their first bid in for Chelsea in 2019, and they have a TON of multi-level, club feeder system experience.

Not in football, but the Dodgers are legendary for the system of teams, feeder teams, developmental pathways, and then the A through triple A teams all the way to the mothership.

They own half or more of the talent pipeline in South and Central America. And they love them, because while talent CAN get promoted through the pathways, they strive to win for the fans and keep a focus at each level.

It was by far the biggest, most ambitious, and expensive “multi tier” system ever put in place by a sports ownership group.

Taking that into account they immediately targeted front and back office staff with heavy experience in those models, and they already had excellent consultants on staff before the purchase.

I am literally just telling you the plan they are presenting as their “first phase”: first 7 years. It isn’t a secret.

You are free to believe they will have no idea how to accomplish it. I don’t think that’s a good bet, but it is your prerogative.
I clearly say some of the Chelsea fans aren't comfortable with it, there even a few on here, because many see buying up and owning different clubs for a pipeline or benefit of an elite club as being a bit crass.

And I'm not sure why you didn't want to break the fact he's looking to buy the Commanders, is that going to be the first Chelsea feeder club?

Listen, I didn't say they wouldn't do it, or even that it's sure to fail. All I'm said was that I'm intrigued to see how it works, especially in a football environment, and especially with an elite team.

I posted on a different post what I see as potential problems with it, but again, they are just problems, again I'm not being totally dismissive and saying they won't work.

Instead of telling me of how it works for a baseball team in America, and since you know so much about their plans, why don't you explain to me how you see it working in football? What level of clubs are they looking to buy? How will it work, will Chelsea be the pinnacle / head of all these clubs? What's the end goal, to produce players for Chelsea's first team? To spread the global brand? As a way of flipping players for profit? World domination?

Enlighten me, as when I say I'm intrigued I genuinely am, I'm not being totally dismissive.
 

terraloo

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Your missing my point. I'm not saying you don't have or use kids. I'm saying the opposite, you already have the best academy in the country, so much so you are overloaded with talent that can't get a game and are sold on to other Premiership clubs or clubs like AC Milan.

So, where does the satellite clubs come in? What level are the clubs going to have to be at to make loaning out the next Reece James, the next Mason Mounts worthwhile?
The clear inference for me was that you were suggesting we don’t use the academy which of course up to a year or so ago was a fully justified accusation

Many of the players that leave get restless and to a large degree understandably want first team football. The problem is that clubs with top 4 aspirations in the current era just afford the luxury of blooding too many academy products at the same time.

People will no doubt refer to Utd and yes they had a gaggle of youngsters coming through all at the same time but that was the exception rather than the rule and even then the experience that was in the rest of the squad was significant.

As for satellite clubs I am not a fan but there clearly are advantages be they commercial, player development or financial but it may well be as simple as using the clubs as a centres for player development but clearly its a plan that features in many clubs long term strategy indeed KSE the ownership entity of Arsenal already own a satellite club in Colorado Rapids

https://www.fourfourtwo.com/feature...be-set-to-buy-a-feeder-club-or-affiliate-team
 
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GoonerBear

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The clear inference for me was that you were suggesting we don’t use the academy which of course up to a year or so ago was a fully justified accusation

Many of the players that leave get restless and to a large degree understandably want first team football. The problem is that clubs with top 4 aspirations in the current era just afford the luxury of blooding too many academy products at the same time.

People will no doubt refer to Utd and yes they had a gaggle of youngsters coming through all at the same time but that was the exception rather than the rule and even then the experience that was in the rest of the squad was significant.

As for satellite clubs I am not a fan but there clearly are advantages be they commercial, player development or financial but it may well be as simple as using the clubs as a centres for player development but clearly its a plan that features in many clubs long term strategy
Apologies if that's the way my post was coming across, I certainly didn't intend to infer Chelsea don't use their academy. As I said, they have currently the best and most successful academy in the country, with many players now either in their first team or in many other first teams in Europe.

It wasn't even a dig at City or anyone else. My point was how has satellite clubs benefited City purely from a football perspective. The 2 guys you mention at City were academy players that stayed at their academy and next step was the first team.

My intrigue, is what are Chelsea going to do to make that pipeline more successful, again purely in football terms? As I said in my last post, it's a genuine intrigue. Happy to be educated.
 

terraloo

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Apologies if that's the way my post was coming across, I certainly didn't intend to infer Chelsea don't use their academy. As I said, they have currently the best and most successful academy in the country, with many players now either in their first team or in many other first teams in Europe.

It wasn't even a dig at City or anyone else. My point was how has satellite clubs benefited City purely from a football perspective. The 2 guys you mention at City were academy players that stayed at their academy and next step was the first team.

My intrigue, is what are Chelsea going to do to make that pipeline more successful, again purely in football terms? As I said in my last post, it's a genuine intrigue. Happy to be educated.
No need to apologise it’s your view, bias and incorrect but your view . Couldn’t resit that so apologies!

It’s worth reading the article I linked to my last post because it is talking about the benefits of ownership groups adding satellite/ affiliate clubs to their port folio

Clubs that are able to have A and B teams player in a competitive league and domestic league ( which is the case in most top UEFA federations) already have a huge advantage and potentially already have affiliate clubs. Teams like Barcelona who have a structured route in place for youth products to progress in a fully controlled environment have made it work to their advantage and why not it’s within the rules. Alas in England it’s not an option. There used to be what was called nursery clubs and for Arsenal it was Margate
 
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ThierryHenry

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That's like saying a 30 year bond on a house compared to a 20 year bond, is just moving 'the problem' further down the line. It's an extremely narrow way of describing the situation.
That analogy doesn't work, unless the homeowner is likely to need to buy 4-6 houses a year for the next 30 years.

Your amortising transfer fees mean that you've already spent a significant amount of your budget over the next eight years. This will work if these players turn out to be mainstays in your first team, but my assumption would be that you're looking to replace the majority of them in 2-4 years, when your ability to make signings at that point are restricted by FFP and the impact of the transfers you're making today.
 

terraloo

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That analogy doesn't work, unless the homeowner is likely to need to buy 4-6 houses a year for the next 30 years.

Your amortising transfer fees mean that you've already spent a significant amount of your budget over the next eight years. This will work if these players turn out to be mainstays in your first team, but my assumption would be that you're looking to replace the majority of them in 2-4 years, when your ability to make signings at that point are restricted by FFP and the impact of the transfers you're making today.
So as you clearly are the oracle what is the budget ?

For me it’s one hellava jump from bringing what 5 players on long contracts to making the assumption that there won’t be any more funds available. Personally I think you are confused between the fee and amortisation

Every transfer in is a gamble of that there is no doubt but since fees were first paid and despite contract lengths contracted players have been moved on if a club so desires and it’s very very rare ( excluding Bogarde) that a player that wants out or the club want them gone isn’t moved on one way or the other and ironically players with lower amortised sums possibly are easier to do so
 

Dancfc

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Steady on mate.
In fairness atleast a challenge that has to be the expectation with the investment.

I'm always quite critical when opposition fans make excuses when they should be holding their team to those standards so not going to contradict myself here.
 

WeePat

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Your owners are putting half a billion into a top 6 squad to facilitate a title challenge. If City are not in God mode, it is definitely doable as we have seen with Arsenal this year.
Yeah fair enough, we still need to see how it ll gels together. It just seems crazy to think about a title challenge when we haven't been in one for 6 years now.
 

WeePat

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In fairness atleast a challenge that has to be the expectation with the investment.

I'm always quite critical when opposition fans make excuses when they should be holding their team to those standards so not going to contradict myself here.
Yeah I hear you and I do agree but I do need to at least see how the team gels and fits together before thinking about challenging.
 

Zaphod2319

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I would be happy with challenging for top 4 at this point. I can accept rebuilding for one year without moaning, but after that my glass will stop being half full.
 

autopilot

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Yeah I hear you and I do agree but I do need to at least see how the team gels and fits together before thinking about challenging.
I genuinely believe that we're not THAT far off contending for the title as long as we avoid multiple injuries in key areas. Two of our best three players have not gotten a consistent run of games in I can't remember how long, compared to the current Arsenal team who have been able to field a consistent XI week-in week-out (save for Jesus' injury). Last season we were flying up until the unfortunate injuries to James and Chilwell, and this season the sheer amount of injuries has made it difficult to rotate in perhaps the most fixture-dense season ever. If our players are fit (big if) I'd say we are a bit behind, but I don't think it has to be more than one proper pre-season away.
 

WeePat

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I genuinely believe that we're not THAT far off contending for the title as long as we avoid multiple injuries in key areas. Two of our best three players have not gotten a consistent run of games in I can't remember how long, compared to the current Arsenal team who have been able to field a consistent XI week-in week-out (save for Jesus' injury). Last season we were flying up until the unfortunate injuries to James and Chilwell, and this season the sheer amount of injuries has made it difficult to rotate in perhaps the most fixture-dense season ever. If our players are fit (big if) I'd say we are a bit behind, but I don't think it has to be more than one proper pre-season away.
Yeah they said on Sky the other night that 7 of Arsenal’s starting 11 have basically played in every single game this season. That’s very fortunate and I think we’d be somewhere in the top 4 mix if we had their luck with injuries.

It’s just hard for me to expect or get hyped for a title challenge because we haven’t been in one for 6 years. Yes after spending the GDP of a small nation on new players, excuses like that seem silly and I do accept that for the money spent the expectation has to be a title challenge but I need to see something from this team and manager to make me believe it.
 

Mb194dc

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We need a goal scorer, hopefully Nkunku will sort things out.

Then we need to sell 10+ players in the next couple of windows as squad is so bloated.

I'd hope we'll finish in Europa place this year and back to top 4 next year. You never really know how things will work out with such massive changes though.

Definitely big downside risks where things could go majorly pear shaped for us.
 

Hughie77

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Steady on mate.
Have some confidence in what's there, bloody hell buying every player that's available of quality, James out Kante out plus the rest to many to mention. Get that squad flowing and Potter has a massive chance.
 

Amazing Santos

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I genuinely believe that we're not THAT far off contending for the title as long as we avoid multiple injuries in key areas. Two of our best three players have not gotten a consistent run of games in I can't remember how long, compared to the current Arsenal team who have been able to field a consistent XI week-in week-out (save for Jesus' injury). Last season we were flying up until the unfortunate injuries to James and Chilwell, and this season the sheer amount of injuries has made it difficult to rotate in perhaps the most fixture-dense season ever. If our players are fit (big if) I'd say we are a bit behind, but I don't think it has to be more than one proper pre-season away.
Yes not that far off, only in 10th place.

The point of spunking 60m plus on the likes of Cucurella was to provide cover, but he turned out to be shite and you've been conned. But you won't admit to it for a couple of seasons. Azpi is finished so no use either.

Dogshit forward line. Ziyech isn't good enough, the american guy isn't, Mount flatters to deceive, then the german can barely get a goal.

But yeah it's those injuries which have done it otherwise you'd be challenging for the title.
 

AltiUn

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Have some confidence in what's there, bloody hell buying every player that's available of quality, James out Kante out plus the rest to many to mention. Get that squad flowing and Potter has a massive chance.
The problem is that their squad and manager still isn't as good as their rivals', even with all the new additions.
 
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