Some of these people are for the first team at Chelsea, others are to organize and build this multi-team plan they have.
Chelsea 2022/2023 | THIS IS LAST YEARS THREAD YOU NUMPTIES
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Could be. I don't dislike Potter. I just don't ever see him being on Tuchel's level. My point is that if the owners think having a manager who's plugged into the hierarchy is inherently more important than the quality of the manager himself, that seems extremely stupid and short-sighted.
You're right that we took a shotgun approach to building a hierarchy - so surely it would make sense to keep the manager who is proven at the very elite level and build around him?
I just completely disagree with their assessment and the speed with which they made such a definitive judgement. Until they saw how Tuchel would operate in the context of a functional hierarchy I think it's completely ludicrous to sack him.
You're right that Potter is not on Tuchel's level and perhaps he'll never be but that still doesn't necessarily mean the change was a bad one. With or without Tuchel we were not going to win the title, not this season and probably not the next one either, but if the plan is to start building a young(ish) squad for longer term success then Tuchel is very unlikely to be the right man to lead that going forwards.
Tuchel is an excellent coach, maybe even a world class one, but what he has never been in his managerial career is a long term project builder. Like I wrote on another thread that as a manager I would consider Tuchel to share a lot of characteristics with Conte and prime-Jose. All great managers who have shown at multiple clubs how to maximise the results with the squad they have but all of them tend to lean most towards the more experienced players and everything just seems short term all the time. All have also proven to be somewhat difficult characters behind the scenes when things start to go wrong, which can lead to some confrontations with both the playing squad as well as the higher ups at their clubs. Another trait they all share is that their football is often effective but perhaps not the most free-flowing and easy on the eye, although that depends entirely on the viewer and I personally never really cared about any that but I see where the criticism comes from.
If the plan in this Boehly-Clearlake era is to start building the club towards a long term footballing ideology (playing style, based on younger players, providing a pathway from the academy to the first team etc.) there is definitely potential for future benefits even if we have to endure some growing pains at first. Basically the idea is that with a clear sporting structure in place the club would eventually have it's own brand of football all the way from the academy to the first team to both offer a clear path for young players to come through from the academy as well as making it easier to identify suitable players to sign, knowing the general style of play will stay the same even if the manager has to be changed from time to time. That's the model clubs like Ajax, Barcelona etc. have been built around and is something to aspire to. It also doesn't sound like a suitable environment for Tuchel at all, for many of the reasons stated above. Whether Potter is the right man to bring the success is very much out in the open but at the very least he's welcoming this cultural rebuild so as long as he plays ball with the higher ups and the long term vision starts to take shape with him in charge of the coaching it doesn't necessarily even matter if he eventually has to be changed to another manager if the project has taken some steps forward in the mean time.
Of course the whole shebang can go wrong very quickly if there are failures in hiring the right directors to lead this new sporting project but then again if it works out the result can be something very good for the club, ie. a long-term period of success while having the club also being more financially sustainable. Don't forget even if it brought us a lot of results and trophies the Roman way of hiring and firing managers as well as having to revamp the squad upon almost every managerial hire to mould the team to their own liking is pretty fecking expensive and is probably not something the new owners are very interested in continuing. While they are almost definitely, based on the expenditure this season, open to initially investing a lot of money in the team they will look at the club as an investment first and foremost so trying to build towards a more sustainable model is the only way forward and they just didn't see a place for Tuchel in there despite him very llikely being a better manager than Potter will ever be.
@Rnd898 i think you again raise some good points and you are right, swapping Tuchel for Potter may not necessarily be a bad move in the long term however what was awful, and I think @TheMagicFoolBus alluded to, was the timing of the decision. It just stank of reactivity dressed up as a ‘long term vision’.
Ultimately the logical order of doing these things would be to get a structure and DoF in place then seek a coach that matches the philosophy. Not the other way around.
Clearlake had ample time to sort this out but it very much came across that Boehly was quite enjoying himself over the summer. Getting his face in all the papers, arranging lavish dinners all over Europe and throwing money around at target after target until something stuck.
In the meantime Tuchel was being roped in to recruitment whilst trying to train the team over in the US. He looked fed up all summer and it’s pretty obvious things were a bit of a shit show.
Ultimately the logical order of doing these things would be to get a structure and DoF in place then seek a coach that matches the philosophy. Not the other way around.
Clearlake had ample time to sort this out but it very much came across that Boehly was quite enjoying himself over the summer. Getting his face in all the papers, arranging lavish dinners all over Europe and throwing money around at target after target until something stuck.
In the meantime Tuchel was being roped in to recruitment whilst trying to train the team over in the US. He looked fed up all summer and it’s pretty obvious things were a bit of a shit show.
I don't think anyone thinks Potter is on Tuchel's level. I was just saying categorising Potter as a coach who is content with just being there sounds like you're throwing shade. I'm just saying
Fair enough. We obviously don't know exactly what went on between them. I don't know if Tuchel would have been the guy to lead the rebuild (of the club in general). A lot of fans were already nervous, prior to his sacking, that it looked like he was making choices that would be bad for the club long term for the sake of the present. Like I said, I would have preferred to keep Tuchel but if the personalty clash stuff is true, then no owner is going to keep a manager that a) doesn't get along with his superiors, and b) isn't on board with the vision they have for their club. So you wanting the owners to put aside their grievances just because Tuchel is an elite coach just seems a bit unrealistic.
Yeah I definitely agree the timing of it all was very far from ideal. If it were up to me I'd have perhaps put the 'cultural rebuild' idea on hold for a while and see out the season with Tuchel. During the season I'd have hired the necessary backroom staff with or without input from TT and then see after the season whether a change in manager was needed or not.
But I also agree with @WeePat that if the relationships behind the scenes were as toxic as some reports say it was maybe better to just rip off the band-aid and do a total reboot ASAP in hopes that it will bring long term gains. And when I say relationships the statement goes both up to the board room and all the way down to the dressing room because Tuchel obviously had some problems with the players too, confirmedly dating back to pre-season and in reality very likely much further back. How deep the problem in the dressing room was and who those players were I have no idea aside from Pulisic which has been well recorded.
I guess I just don't agree with the characterisation that Tuchel is purely a short-term manager - he gave Chalobah his debut, he built his team around Reece and Mount, he gave Gallagher ample chances early on this year. Look at what he did with Ousmane Dembele and Pulisic at Dortmund. Obviously Mbappe is a generational superstar but Tuchel is the one who nurtured him early on. Every interview Tuchel gave he emphasised how happy he was and how he envisioned himself staying at Chelsea long-term.
I just don't see how Tuchel = unsustainable and Potter = sustainable?
Content with just being there is in part a reaction to all of the media fluff about how lower-tier PL managers don't get a shot at the big 6 and yadda yadda (which Potter has spoken about as well; contrast this with Tuchel's first press conferences where he said he was at Chelsea to win titles and didn't want to wait). Some of the rumours about his training methods don't exactly inspire confidence as well.I don't think anyone thinks Potter is on Tuchel's level. I was just saying categorising Potter as a coach who is content with just being there sounds like you're throwing shade. I'm just saying
Fair enough. We obviously don't know exactly what went on between them. I don't know if Tuchel would have been the guy to lead the rebuild (of the club in general). A lot of fans were already nervous, prior to his sacking, that it looked like he was making choices that would be bad for the club long term for the sake of the present. Like I said, I would have preferred to keep Tuchel but if the personalty clash stuff is true, then no owner is going to keep a manager that a) doesn't get along with his superiors, and b) isn't on board with the vision they have for their club. So you wanting the owners to put aside their grievances just because Tuchel is an elite coach just seems a bit unrealistic.
Re: the second point, if I were stepping into a professional setting where I was unfamiliar and I had an employee with an otherwise exemplary track record who was not keen on teaching me about the company, the last fecking thing I'd do would be to fire them. I'm sorry but it's simply insane to have such an inflexible vision for the future of the club that quickly. Again I'd reiterate that finding elite coaches is a feckton harder than finding football directors - and for them to squander it because Tuchel wanted to focus on coaching is asinine. Especially when they continue to employ Dave Roberts for the Dodgers.
What, exactly, do people see Tuchels level as being? With the exception of Mainz he hasn’t lasted longer than two years at any of his jobs. A ton of Oppo’s on here acting like we kicked Pep to the curb after he offered to build us an empire.
Tuchel is an excellent tournament coach. But many of the qualities that make him excellent in that situation make him almost putrid in others. Do people not remember the articles basically saying he was actively trying to take a torch to the Dortmund and PSG locker rooms and front offices? Is it just conveniently forgotten that the word most often used to describe him was “Difficult”?
He got us a Champions league. We absolutely should be grateful. But the idea that anyone would choose Thomas Tuchel to lead the building of a large, collaborative sporting empire is ridiculous. It’s the complete opposite of his skillset, and even he apparently realized that about halfway through the Summer.
My only beef was Clearlake getting sentimental at all, and trying to shoehorn him into the gig to begin with. Tuchel is the kind of guy who probably LOVED the whole locked-in-a-bunker, I’ll drive the team bus, sanction period. But they talked to enough people to have an idea of how badly he would handle what they wanted from him in his “expanded role”. TUCHEL himself told people, including those with access to frontline Chelsea reporters, that it was a disaster.
Is Tuchel greater than Potter tactically? Maybe. Tuchel tactically took apart Pep when it mattered. He does that ONE thing very well. Would you choose him over Pep to build your program to the top echelon level? No, because most of you aren’t stupid.
Potter is 4000 times better than Tuchel at handling locker rooms. He has never had the team Tuchel had to work with for that CL. And since the keystone of that team even bring able to operate was Kante, I would argue he’s never had close.
Potter is better at building relationships with front office staff and coordinating what he does to an overall plan.
Tuchel should coach a national team. It is tailor made to his skill set and would cement his legacy.
But Chelsea absolutely made the right decision, albeit late, the project they want. And for those that think the “TOP technical mind” is “more important than anything” in building something …. You don’t get how football at the top level works now, because that is not true. A lot of oeoe felt we never recovered structurally from Emenalo leaving. Edu plays AT LEAST as much s role in Arsenals rise as Arteta. Txiki, among others, could be argued at least as important as Pep in the rise of City. In fact, City had already attained many of the same heights they have to date before Pep.
It is the larger structure of the club itself that is the real decider now. And that is precisely the thing Tuchel is functionally not equipped for.
Tuchel is an excellent tournament coach. But many of the qualities that make him excellent in that situation make him almost putrid in others. Do people not remember the articles basically saying he was actively trying to take a torch to the Dortmund and PSG locker rooms and front offices? Is it just conveniently forgotten that the word most often used to describe him was “Difficult”?
He got us a Champions league. We absolutely should be grateful. But the idea that anyone would choose Thomas Tuchel to lead the building of a large, collaborative sporting empire is ridiculous. It’s the complete opposite of his skillset, and even he apparently realized that about halfway through the Summer.
My only beef was Clearlake getting sentimental at all, and trying to shoehorn him into the gig to begin with. Tuchel is the kind of guy who probably LOVED the whole locked-in-a-bunker, I’ll drive the team bus, sanction period. But they talked to enough people to have an idea of how badly he would handle what they wanted from him in his “expanded role”. TUCHEL himself told people, including those with access to frontline Chelsea reporters, that it was a disaster.
Is Tuchel greater than Potter tactically? Maybe. Tuchel tactically took apart Pep when it mattered. He does that ONE thing very well. Would you choose him over Pep to build your program to the top echelon level? No, because most of you aren’t stupid.
Potter is 4000 times better than Tuchel at handling locker rooms. He has never had the team Tuchel had to work with for that CL. And since the keystone of that team even bring able to operate was Kante, I would argue he’s never had close.
Potter is better at building relationships with front office staff and coordinating what he does to an overall plan.
Tuchel should coach a national team. It is tailor made to his skill set and would cement his legacy.
But Chelsea absolutely made the right decision, albeit late, the project they want. And for those that think the “TOP technical mind” is “more important than anything” in building something …. You don’t get how football at the top level works now, because that is not true. A lot of oeoe felt we never recovered structurally from Emenalo leaving. Edu plays AT LEAST as much s role in Arsenals rise as Arteta. Txiki, among others, could be argued at least as important as Pep in the rise of City. In fact, City had already attained many of the same heights they have to date before Pep.
It is the larger structure of the club itself that is the real decider now. And that is precisely the thing Tuchel is functionally not equipped for.
Don't even know where to begin with this mess.
Yes, he was "actively trying to take a torch to Dortmund and PSG" because he objected to the hierarchy's response to the team coach being bombed and then the squad building equivalent of that in PSG signing Mauro Icardi for €50m whilst letting Thiago Silva and Cavani leave on frees.
"Potter is 4000 times better than Tuchel at handling locker rooms" - this is a hilarious statement. Do you think that world class players are champing at the bit to play for Graham Potter? Chelsea had a legitimate chance to sign fecking Neymar this past summer purely because he was keen on reuniting with Tuchel. Is Potter the better manager for a team whose chief ambition is finishing at least 16th in the league? Maybe - but to categorically state that that makes Potter a better locker room presence is fecking comical.
Yes though, we haven't recovered from Emenalo leaving given what an extensive success he's been elsewhere. Oh sorry what's that? He got sacked by Monaco after 2 years and hasn't worked in football since? Gosh, it's almost like finding sporting directors is easy and the actual market inefficiency is finding elite coaches - imagine that!
He made clear in about every press conference how much he disliked it, and how it made vital things difficult/impossible.
But no point arguing with you. Also zero interest in this rather hysterical Tuchel vs Potter nonsense.
Doesn't it already say a lot about Tuchel with young players that you have to include Mbappe as one of the success stories? Mind you Mbappe had already been at PSG under Unai Emery for a year following his €180M move when Tuchel arrived and was also a recently crowned World Cup winner with France before they even started working together.
Speaking of Tuchel at PSG, he was also their manager when they sold Christopher Nkunku and Moussa Diaby who have both gone on to develop into very good players since moving. Though during Tuchel's first season at the club they did both get a decent amount of minutes in the Ligue 1 considering their age it was still Tuchel who ultimately decided they weren't good enough and replaced them with more experienced players like Mauro Icardi and Pablo Sarabia instead. Both prime examples of the short termism I was talking about.
At Chelsea Tuchel's record with the younger players was a bit of a hit-and-miss. Mount and James were both very much key players already under Lampard so I'm not sure how much credit Tuchel should get for them. Chalobah and Gallagher are both definitely worthy mentions though, as are the likes of Gilmour and Tammy in the opposite direction.
Even Jose has had some notable youngsters feature in his teams and some have even become key players under him but would anyone describe him as being overall good with young talent? I doubt it, and it's more or less the same with Tuchel. Wonderful manager but not one without his flaws.
PSG sold those because of FFP reasons, Diaby and Nkunku played lots under TT (given the circumstances of a stacked squad). He played Dagba almost regularily. Nianzou was introduced (unfortunately left), Pembélé as well. A 20yo Keane was featured almost always over Icardi.
At Dortmund he developed Dembélé into worldclass in no time, Weigl was so good that time that he was considered potential Bayern/Barca material -> came straigth from the second devision. Pulisic, Ginter and Guerrero were all young-very young and regular starters. Introduced Jonas Hofmann as well. United parked Januzaj there because they thought he would improve (lost case though).
Mainz - they got famous as the "Bruchweg Boys".
It's a lazy argument to suggest he has a problem to develop young players. The problem lies at least one level above that since a club in heavy competition with the ambition to win every single game they play just doesn't have the time and patience to let a regular 17-19yo get multiple starts in a row, doing mistakes to learn from them - let alone multiple youngsters at the same time. This season Gallagher (not a fan myself for now, haven't seen him at CP though) and Broja had quite some minutes under him as well. And as a coach at Chelsea you know you have very limited time so the incentive to develop long term prospects (that eventually cost you dearly shortterm ; like Trev against Pool last season) just is marginalized.
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Tuchel didn't want to sell those players. That was part of why he fell out with the board - because Leonardo in all his idiocy wanted to buy the likes of Mauro Icardi and Danilo Pereira for ludicrous fees.
Given that you think Potter is so good with young players, where is his track record compared to Tuchel as outlined by @weetee? Potter is good at getting the most out of the players available to him, but where are the top class youngsters he nurtured who have gone on to excel at other teams? There's simply no basis for stating that Potter is better with youth, assuming you're looking at frivolous things like "who went on to be good and productive at the top level".
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I picked up some stick for doubting the Koulibaly signing but it has to be said he looks an absolute clogger. Classic Serie A fair weather phenomenon?
I think it is that and a matter of when CB declines, the fall is very noticeable. He has declined in international play as well. Silva has changed his approach. Koulibaly seems to want to rely on his speed and physicality, both things are not what they used to be. I think he can still play at this level if he makes changes, but he will never be the beast he once was.
Bloody hell, sounds like he tore something. Hope it’s nothing too serious but that looks very bad.
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Chelsea and mid season friendly. What could go wrong?
At least there was a little more point of a warm up game than the time RLC got injured in a post season game. Hopefully he recovers. Our injury list is ludicrous.
Horrible hearing him scream like that. Hope he has a speedy recovery.
It's so sad. It was a big year for him as well, with Auba not pulling up any trees, the pathway for him to claim a starting role was right there for him. I genuinely hope it's nothing serious but my guess is he has torn his ACL and we won't see him again until next season.
Seemingly Dortmund's Youssoufa Moukoko is being eyed up for a potential January move after Broja's injury, so it's probably a bad one. Moukoko's contract is up next summer and the club have previously been reported to be somewhat interested in him on a free transfer but could now try to accelerate the plans and get him in January. Lots of other clubs after him too, and Dortmund still haven't given up in trying extend his contract..
Very promising young striker but I doubt an 18-year-old lad is the answer to our problems in January...
I think regardless we need striker, whether Broja got injured or not, because clearly Auba is not working out and he isn't here for the long term anyway. Signing a prospect like Moukoko is always welcome. He can be the Endrick alternative in a way, so I'm cool with going for him. He's exceptionally talented.
I don't know if signing him as a way to help the team right now is the best thing to do. Too much pressure too soon. Looks like we'll be stuck with Auba as the main option until the end of the season sadly.
I'm a little worried we're going a bit too far with this youth building, even Arsenal have Partey, Xhaka, Zinchenko etc to balance things out.
We also have a lot of experience likely leaving next summer and even our remaining main players (James/Mount) will still be reasonably young.
You're not wrong, but you can't pass up the opportunity to sign an incredible prospect like Moukoko. I just have concerns about when we sign him. A January move with the hope of rescuing this season would be crazy. Unfair to put him under that kind of pressure. It's why I think we're just stuck with rotating Auba and Havertz until the summer at which point we can hopefully get rid of Auba (maybe Havertz too?) and rebuild the attack for the 3rd summer in a row.
The worst knee injury. He's looking about 9months, possibly 12 IMO depending on rehab speed
Nah you were spot on mate. I'll confess to have drunk a fair bit of the Kool Aid but you were right to be skeptical. Looks a significant downgrade on Rudiger.
Datro Fofana signing from Molde. Not a clue about him. Squad filler or out on loan perhaps
Can't the world cup just keep going until June..? Guess we can hope other teams effected worse than us by the break and we get players back... Not much Christmas cheer at Chelsea me thinks.
I think it’s always a risk signing an older player who has only played in one league for the bulk of his career. Especially when that league is Serie A which is much slower and less intense than the PL.
His injury record suggested he had started to feel his 30s somewhat so it did seem likely he’d find it difficult.
That said he’s not cost a huge amount of money in terms of fee, granted he is quite a high earner. I can also see why the club wanted to get some experience in following the departure of Rudiger and Christensen so on the face of it there’s a few arguments as to why it made sense.
I guess it’s the lack of planning which would irk me more in terms of TomorI and Guhei, both of whom have shown that has more than enough to feature at the club which would have in turn removed the necessity of spending so much money in that area.
The only defence I have for letting them both go (I was more okay with letting Tomori go than Guehi) is that we couldn't really foresee the Ukraine war and the sanctions coming. Of course in hindsight, it would have been great to keep them but when add the surrounding context in, especially Tomori it's a bit harsh to come back years after the fact and judge the decisions negatively. Chelsea had AC, Rudiger and Zouma at the time when Lampard felt Tomori was at best 4th choice. Tomori requested a transfer and he the request was granted. That was in 2020, and shit hit the fan in 2022.
Not that I disagree with your assessment that Chelsea's recruitment can sometimes be a little chaotic, reckless and lacking foresight. It just seems a bit harsh to look at the circumstances in which Chelsea lost AC and Rudiger for free and then say, well you should have kept Tomori and Guehi.
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That is fair. I guess it’s just how it looks from the outside and I really don’t think it has done the club any favours in terms of young players.
Abraham, Liveramento, Lamptey, Hudson-Odoi, Gilmour… appreciate Gallagher is getting a go now, and James and Mount are both regulars, but you have to fear for Colwill, Chalobah and what not when you hear the links to Gvardiol along with the huge monies spent on Fofana.
It genuinely seems like as good as you are at developing these players you can’t get the integration right and lack patience. I’m not surprised these talents won’t tolerate loan after loan anymore and simply just leave instead.
Your U21 team looking stronger by each signing!
It is definitely a hard balance to strike, and we have struggled at times to find that balance, you're not wrong. I would push back slightly on some of those things because, again context matters. In what world could we have integrated Livramento and Lamptey when we had Reece James coming through at the same time? What would you have told those two players in order to convince them to stay?
Chalobah has played nearly 50 games for Chelsea from the beginning of last season to now and is now knocking on the door for an England call up. He's a fully fledged member of the first team. Fully integrated, exactly what you say Chelsea should be doing.
Of course some players have been handled poorly. CHO and Gilmour are prime cases.
What are you talking about? I have decided from this Youtube comp that he's already better than Auba and should be the starting striker at Chelsea
To be honest, i felt like that at the end with Auba as well, so I can feel your pain. Can add Lacazette in that as well. When Nketiah comes in and out performs you, you know something is not good.What are you talking about? I have decided from this Youtube comp that he's already better than Auba and should be the starting striker at Chelsea
You know what, wouldn't it be ironic if an Ivorian kid playing in Norway breaks the Chelsea striker curse.
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