True, I was surprised to read that he was basically ostracizing certain players. Really bizarre, if true!
Chelsea appoint Thomas Tuchel
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Hasn't Lampard always had a bit of a chip on his shoulder? I mean in his first Summer at the club didn't he sell Luiz last minute because he called him Frank instead of gaffer?
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They haven't displayed that yet?
Since Tuchel has been at Chelsea they have conceded 14 goals and kept 15 clean sheets. However, of those goals conceded 5 were against WBA when they went down to 10 men, 1 was a penalty against the Dippers (not sure if they're have been others) and 1 was a ludricous own goal against Sheffield were it was a total mix up. So, that is a maximum of seven goals conceded from open play that weren't due to error or when they were down to 10 men. This also must be over a span of about 18+ games now.
If that isn't machine like, I am not sure what is.
Rumour was it was Cech report about training methods under frank after big slump went against him and frank forced some members not to join training. Yet Roman remained patient but Leicester game sealed his fate I think.
Yep, I don't think current iteration of Chelsea team is good to watch but if anything can be said about their style of play is that it's very machine like. Everyone running about with purpose, knowing their role in offense and defense. It has to be said though that their players are mostly quite used to these roles, being very disciplined and tactically aware in their previous teams/systems. Though many players are still quite young, it's a very mature team.
Forgot the Jorginho back pass vs Arsenal!
That can't be the actual reason surely
I wouldn't say so, no.
Ultimately, from the start of Tuchel's time last season until the end - they accumulated 38 points; scoring 25 goals and conceding 13. We accumulated 34 points; scoring 37 goals and conceding 19. I don't think we were close to the level of ruthlessness that I'd alluded to and I wouldn't say Chelsea were either, albeit a little closer than us.
They averaged 2 PPG in this time, we averaged 1.8. For comparison, City averaged 2.4 in this same time frame last season. Liverpool - 2.3 in 2019/20. City - 2.8 in 2018/19 (with Liverpool at 2.4).
They're not a bad team, I just think that as with us they'll need to either go up a level or rely on City/Liverpool dropping down a level if they're going to win the league.
This is a problem of looking at stats in isolation as yes, this is true. However, this also neglects the shambles Chelsea were in when he took over. They couldn't defend to save their lives. To get them from where they were to were they are now in such a short period is pretty remarkable.
People seem to forget he lost the second most important game of the season (last day v Villa), and was only a whisker away from losing out on CL football all together.
Oh, and he lost the FA cup final as well. Forgot about that.
Oh, and he lost the FA cup final as well. Forgot about that.
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The stats are supplementary to my point, which is a pretty simple one - their team needs to go up a level to match what City and Liverpool have shown, unless those teams drop off. Of course, only time will tell.
We actually improved defensively (not exactly hard I know) even under Lampard with Mendy and Silva in the team.
Obviously Tuchel has took it up another level entirely, it would have been back to square one had we lost Mendy under Frank whereas Tuchel still has us looking unbelievable even with Kepa in the nets.
It was actually the (lack of) attacking plan that saw to Frank in the end.
Luiz did not want to accept that Frank was going to use him as a rotation player. As it turns out, one of the things that Frank was going to be correct in doing seeing how Luiz declined rapidly at Arsenal.That can't be the actual reason surely
That's fine but it's still premature to place them at the level we have seen City and Liverpool hit in recent seasons (not saying that you are doing this), but until they hit that level, they still have it all to prove the same way United do. Short of hoping City and Liverpool regress, at least.
Oh We won Leicester game but after lost to them in fa cup final. Final league game was against villa and we lost thankfully Leicester succumbed too against spurs.
We won against city and Leicester and lost to arsenal and villa in final four league games and Leicester was six pointer. So basically won two tough games lost two moderate games. With injury concerns and cl final one week away won t complain much with those results.
Fa cup was little bit disappointed though but we did not play that badly except our bad finishing and schmeichel had one of best games. So no complaint for that either.In fact in their build up to goal in final there was legitimate handball claim but referee ignored and went out because of screamer. I will take that.
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Which manager hasn't fecked up a game? He won the CL, Guardiola obviously lost it.
Yeah that was what was widely reported. I'd just never heard about Lampard getting the hump because Luiz called him Frank.
I never heard it either. I think if that was his reasoning during preseason, the situation would have unraveled much faster than it did. I do remember that it was Rudiger that went to the administration about how Frank was treating players.
this is the second comment on redcafe I've seen saying he 'only just missed out on CL', which seems a really weird thing to level at a manager who took over in January with Chelsea in 9th position......
While on the subject of Frank I really hope he's the last time we bring a legend in to manage us (and that includes ones who got their status here as a manager in a previous spell).
We've seen it now with both Mou and Lamps that they have too big a pull on the fanbase.
We've seen it now with both Mou and Lamps that they have too big a pull on the fanbase.
When will it be time to burst Tuchy's bubble?
Chelsea were by far the more worthy winners of the Champions league and probably should have won the FA cup as they were the better team on the day.
I'm not certain that they'll hit 90+ points this season like some have suggested or that they'll win the league but he's done a fantastic job so far in turning around what was a bit of a mess with Lampard's reign (though not terrible, they did get top 4 with him). Doing it so quickly is a huge credit to him as well.
Obviously every manager has, and I am not claiming Tuchel hasn't done a great job, because he absolutely has. But to hail him as one of the best managers around when he essentially has achieved the same as Di Matteo (well Di Matteo actually one the FA cup), and what Avram Grant was very close to achieving, I think is a bit early.
Some people also seem to forget that we played Villa (not Leicester) on the last day.
poor comparison as Di Matteo and Grant had nowhere near the coaching background that Tuchel has. Grant went from the Israeli national team to Chelsea off the back of his friendship with Roman. Di Matteo went from previously managing MK Dons and West Brom to inheriting the Chelsea job as assistant. Tuchel is nearing 500 games in club management, well over 50% of which are in a top 5 European league (not to mention that it includes 3 of those top 5 European leagues: France, Germany, England which only adds to his experience). Look at the careers of Di Matteo and Grant after Chelsea- RDM was retired within the next couple of years and Grant had a season at Portsmouth, a season at West Ham and was then at Partizan Belgrade. They are worlds apart.
I agree that your player recruitment is excellent. However a top manager will be able to do well with good players irrespective of whether he buys them or inherits them. The current United team has a plethora of talent so when Ole leaves the new manager should not have a big task if he does it right. Something which Tuchel has proven with Chelsea. Practically same team as Lampard but the performance levels of the players are incomparable.
These comparisions are wrong on many levels.
Di Matteo was basically babysitting the old guard for one big last push for the holy grail. It was a written in the stars job and while Robbie played his part in rallying the troops he done very little tactically.
This time however we went through the entire knockout stage without relying on any luck, and that was down to Tuchel and how tactically astute he is.
They may have lifted the same trophy, but that's where the comparisions end.
He's a quality manager. I still feel personally that the Chelsea team isn't even that strong on the basis of individual quality but the manager has instilled the right attitude that every player plays within the confides of the instructions they are given. This is very reminiscent of Sir Alex management, look at some of the first team players Sir Alex won competitions with and see where they are playing now the likes of Cleverly, Welbeck, Raphael, Evans etc.
Tuchel excels in the coaching / tactical aspect of play. You can clearly see an identity with the likes of Chelsea, City and Liverpool because of their respective managers. I feel anything in life the most important platform to build from is a foundation it's principle. Tuchel has given Chelsea a foundation to build and achieve from.
Winning also favourably changes the perspective, if Chelsea didn't win the UCL how is Tuchel then defined ? I would place him in a slightly higher bracket than someone like Poch. But now he's got the silverware (at the highest level) he's easily one of the best managers in world football. This is why losing the Europa League final was a drastic loss for Ole rather than Manchester United.
Either way I applaud Tuchels management the meticulous type very refined and methodical, no nonsense drilled and disciplined approach. So many variables of Sir Alex in those words.
Tuchel excels in the coaching / tactical aspect of play. You can clearly see an identity with the likes of Chelsea, City and Liverpool because of their respective managers. I feel anything in life the most important platform to build from is a foundation it's principle. Tuchel has given Chelsea a foundation to build and achieve from.
Winning also favourably changes the perspective, if Chelsea didn't win the UCL how is Tuchel then defined ? I would place him in a slightly higher bracket than someone like Poch. But now he's got the silverware (at the highest level) he's easily one of the best managers in world football. This is why losing the Europa League final was a drastic loss for Ole rather than Manchester United.
Either way I applaud Tuchels management the meticulous type very refined and methodical, no nonsense drilled and disciplined approach. So many variables of Sir Alex in those words.
You'd almost certainly get a big boost if you hired a good manager. It's kind of insane from the neutral standpoint that Ole is still there.
Hush! Ole deserves to be there for life!
Most simple way to look at it is, since day 1:
DWWWWWDWDWWDWWLWWLWDWDWWWLLWLW | WWWDWWW
You can say their form tailed off towards end of season (only ever back to back losses Arsenal and then Leicester in final) but it’s not a great criticism as they then won the CL and did end up top 4.
We need them to start dropping points.
Cool, thanks for the explanation. I mentioned in a previous reply that I didn’t watch too much of Chelsea under Conte, but I remember the home match against City in 17/18 which City won 1-0. I thought Chelsea had looked competitive and dangerous until Morata had to go off injured, so didn’t think this would have been an issue. Fair point about his UCL record.
And also Conte had limitations in his back three with Cahill although great servant for Chelsea he had limitations. Cant play high up the pitch and very limited in ball playing ability. That Chelsea team have some times struggled to get out of press. Hazard s ability to play through two three players bailed out many times.
Tuchel s back three have ability play high up, have recovery pace also ball playing ability through out the defence.Zouma one of best cb s for us even when we struggling but clumsy in possession. Tuchel simply sold him mainly for that.
3-4-3 yes they both used but pattern of play and defensive organisation and attacking patterns totally different in my opinion.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/behind-the-scenes-of-frank-lampards-year-at-chelsea-zb9v8j2vtThat can't be the actual reason surely
It was widely reported in the Times and Telegraph that it was the reason.
It does also fit as Luiz was apart of the pre-season, had just signed a new two year contract and Chelsea were under transfer embargo. Then all of a sudden a few days before the window shut he was sold suddenly. Only reason I remember it is because I thought it was really petty but it fit the evidence.
Well the initial comment was that they're not machine like. If you're looking for a attacking machine, then no, they're not. However, defensively they're an incredibly well oiled machine. 14 goals to 15 clean sheets with only 8 goals being conceded from open play that weren't due to a penalty, ridiculous own goals or due to them being down to 10 men in pretty insane. Especially when those figures have been achieved over 20+ games.
For me, they're a bit like a footballing equivalent to Floyd Mayweather. Teams may be able to back them up/get them on the ropes for spells, but even when they do that, they don't really lay a glove on them, then after they've seen what the opposition is like they step out and completely control the rhythm.
Obviously, they have a long way to go to win a title and lots of things can happen. However, what Tuchel has established so far is quite foreboding at this point in time. I agree, man for man they're not the best group of individuals but I see them as having the best cohesion and depth by quite a distance at the moment.
I remember when Lampard came out and said we aren't ready to compete. Lampard was also getting in a few confrontations on the bench with Klopp and Mourinho. Plus it seems as though he fell out with a few players and just didn't speak to them.
I think we sold Luiz because he told Luiz he was like 5th choice behind Rudiger, Zoma, Tomori and Christensen. Luiz wanted to play every week, Arsenal came in for him and he worked under Emery at PSG.
Other than bedding in a few youngsters, getting rid of Luiz in a quick and tidy manner might be his greatest achievement as Chelsea boss.
Tuchel has always been a brilliant and versatile coach with very few but significant flaws. Prior to all the others coaches that came later (Nagelsmann, Rose), Tuchel was the OG "hipster" manager in Germany who had the reputation of being the brightest and tactically most capable in the Bundesliga (maybe on par with Rangnick, but he stopped coaching). But whilst probably being tactically superior even to someone like Klopp (who is still world-class in that regard), he was a very difficult character to the extent that some ex-players even accused him of bullying them, and Watzke (BVB CEO) publicly said that he was easily one of the best coaches in the world, but impossible to work with as a human being. Not sure if he has learned to do that while being in Paris and I could easily see him winning the league/CL this year, but I still think that he could fall out with the club in a couple of years when they inevitably are on a bad streak.
He's a top class coach who took over from one who isn't anywhere near that level. It's not all that complex.
What has impressed me most isn't the defensive solidity on its own. As a couple of the Chelsea fans in here have already said, that already improved a bit with the signing of Mendy. Changing to a system with 3 central defenders & 2 proper wing backs & Kante in midfield will only reinforce the defence & make it tighter.
It's the fact that the defence has obviously improved, while at the same time no obvious detriment to the attacking play. It's a system that allows them to stay solid when need be, but also unleash the likes of Alonso & James to almost play as wide forwards at times.
It might level out as managers & teams work out the system going forward, but it's definitely paying dividends for them now.
It's the fact that the defence has obviously improved, while at the same time no obvious detriment to the attacking play. It's a system that allows them to stay solid when need be, but also unleash the likes of Alonso & James to almost play as wide forwards at times.
It might level out as managers & teams work out the system going forward, but it's definitely paying dividends for them now.