I think we have very few players that would make any of the top 3 teams.
Chelsea appoint Thomas Tuchel
- Thread starter RashyForPM
- Start date
You have good options in attack, poor options in midfield and an OK defense with 2 strong GKs.
The problem with your team is that you never truly fixed your defense, just patched it and completely ignored the middle. I know a top class manager can mitigate some weak areas but you don’t have a midfield that can dominate teams on a regular basis. You’ve lost on pressing, make a lot of errors and the chemistry is all wrong - None of those players can mitigate the others weakness.
Ole was right when he said you needed to go back and get the basics right, but he was so blind by ‘the United way’ and the ghost of fergie that he didn’t see that the basics were still not being followed.
Sancho would walk into the Chelsea team. He's much better than Havertz and he is currently starting for Chelsea while Sancho barely featured for United. Many of your players would look totally different in a well functioning team. The quality is definitely there: Greenwood, Sancho, Rashford, Cristiano, Cavani, Bruno, van de Beek and Varane are top class players. Even Martial is incredibly talented.
Sancho for sure is not better than Havertz in Havertz current position. Havertz currently starts up front, and that mainly because two forwards are injured (Lukaku, Werner). No 9 is a position Sancho has never played and is not suited to play.
Yes but prior to that Havertz played as one of two tens in a 3-4-2-1 behind Werner/Lukaku, e. g. in the UCL final. That's pretty much the exact same position Sancho occupied in Favre's 3-4-2-1 when Hakimi was still there. His competitors for this position, if he was to play for Chelsea instead of Havertz, would be Mount, Ziyech and maybe Pulisic. You never fully know but I think everything points towards the assumption he'd be a clear starter.
I mean, let's not Sancho outperformed many proven world class attacking players in the Bundesliga over the last few years. Reus, Gnabry, Coman, Sané, Havertz, Werner, etc. were all quite clearly worse than him.
I'll give you that we can be sure he would be ahead of Pulisic, as actually that situation existed at Dortmund. He would definitely be in the mix there, but it is a plus for Havertz that he is more versatile then Sancho.
We don't have an 11 that always start, but Sancho would most definitely be one of our main starting choices. I'd love him at Chelsea. I'd have loved Varane too, was gutted when Utd got him.
Shaw's class, Pogba (much as I dislike his arrogance) is class, Bruno is great, Ronaldo is obviously great despite his age. There's some serious quality in that Utd team which is just being criminally underused.
Shaw's class, Pogba (much as I dislike his arrogance) is class, Bruno is great, Ronaldo is obviously great despite his age. There's some serious quality in that Utd team which is just being criminally underused.
Sancho would probably get into the Chelsea team and so would CR7, however on current form I am not sure how many other Utd players would get into a combo side? Certainly not any of the WB's, CM's or CB's.
I'd say Varane, too. Bruno could also make it as a CM or AM, same for De Gea. Possibly Shaw, too. There aren't that many positions in which Chelsea is clearly better. CB, CDM and RB.
Sancho won t start for Chelsea if his work rate is that low for sure. He is no better than ziyech in my opinion. Yes he will in future but whatever I watched in United shirt nothing to suggest he will replace Hudson odoi at present let alone havertz mount ziyech pulisic and all.
De Gea certainly wouldn't, Mendy has been close to perfect this season. Shaw would have to compete with both Chilwell and Alonso, so possible but far from certain. Bruno is a good shout, and possibly Pogba as we have Kante there to offset his disadvantages. Then again we have some really, really good CMs ourselves, so it's definitely not clear cut. The fact it's up for debate at all though shows there's some real class there.
Can't judge the lad on the shitshow he's been dropped into since his move. He's quality.
Varane isn’t better than Thiago Silva or Rüdiger and on form over the last few months since Tuchel came in Christensen has been top class as well. Not sure Varane would go right in. I’m definitely not having Shaw in place of Chilly. Chilwell is much more adept going forward in our system.
The only player from United I’d instantly take in our XI is Bruno. And even then only against smaller teams where he wouldn't have to press high like Mount does.
12 games in, 4 goals conceded. He’s got them set up in such a way that they’ll probably concede less than 20 goals all season.
No offense to bundesliga I just hate the stats from it. I can see why people rate sancho but certainly I didn't see anything of note yet from him. I didn't see him play for Dortmund admittedly. So probably you are right.
We certainly not water tight like last season. Mendy s top form more than anything in my opinion.
As usual united fans overrating their players, the same way you did with Ole after he won games against Pep and Klopp, like he was the 2nd coming of SAF.
Shaw won't get ahead of Chilwell or Alonso, Sancho is nowhere his Dortmund form and he is like any other prospect from the german league. Rashford and Greenwood are just speed merchants who go missing when needed in important matches unlike Havertz and Mount. And our midfield trio of Kovacic, Jorginho and Kante are only second to City's midfield if even. Mendy has achieved more than DDG has in his whole career inside a year. He is breaking records left and right and is more comparable to Petr. Rudiger, Christensen and Silva are far better than what you have to offer ever since SAF retired.
Shaw won't get ahead of Chilwell or Alonso, Sancho is nowhere his Dortmund form and he is like any other prospect from the german league. Rashford and Greenwood are just speed merchants who go missing when needed in important matches unlike Havertz and Mount. And our midfield trio of Kovacic, Jorginho and Kante are only second to City's midfield if even. Mendy has achieved more than DDG has in his whole career inside a year. He is breaking records left and right and is more comparable to Petr. Rudiger, Christensen and Silva are far better than what you have to offer ever since SAF retired.
It would be a bad mistake to underestimate this United team. They're nowhere near as well coached as our lads, but they're far stronger as individuals than United have had in a long time.
If we look at it like this... If Tuchel was appointed United manager at the start of 2021, and Chelsea still had Lampard, we'd be sat here asking how many Chelsea players could get into the United team. The fortunes of the 2 teams would be completely reversed, there's no way Lampard would have Chelsea anywhere near us if Tuchel was our manager, in the same way Ole wasn't capable of getting anywhere near Tuchel's Chelsea.
Chelsea obviously have a very good squad.
Another way we could view these player comparisons. Would Tuchel drop any of your defenders if he was handed Varane tomorrow? Maybe not, because they've earned their place and there's no point disrupting a unit that is already working very well. If you offered the likes of PSG, Madrid, Barca, Bayern, Juve, City the chance to have 1 centre back from Chelsea or United tomorrow - I suspect a lot of them would take Varane. Speculation of course. Likewise I think most of them are going to take Bruno over Mason Mount even if Tuchel for some reason wouldn't like Bruno at Chelsea.
Good post.
Sancho was not better than Havertz in Bundesliga and has not been better in the PL. Silly argument that he could be. He has to show it.
De Gea over Mendy
De Gea over Mendy
Comparing squads is easy to do on paper but as most have stated, it’s the way the manager has them performing.Sancho was not better than Havertz in Bundesliga and has not been better in the PL. Silly argument that he could be. He has to show it.
De Gea over Mendy
Mendy over De Gea every single day for me is such an easy decision.
Both James and Azpi over AWB.
Only Varane would get into the back 3 because he’s quick and he’s good. No chance would Maguire or Lindelof get near our defence.
Last season, Shaw would have. This season, Chilwell and Alonso have been far better than him.
Kante, Jorginho, Kovacic, Loftus-Cheek, Gilmour and even Saul I’d have before McFred and Matic.
So the entire goalkeeper to midfield I feel we are far superior.
Attacking midfield to Striker, Man Utd have better individuals and we have a better unit. Rashford, Ronaldo and Greenwood would not enjoy the work ethic required by Tuchel. We don’t have a midfielder who provides a significant goal threat the way Bruno or Pogba would but their teamwork and pressing is on another level.
I think in a 'proper' system you'll likely see Fernandes dropped.
Of Course they are better than what they used to have, but that doesn't mean they are far better players on paper or on field than ours, because of one or two occasions couple months ago. Sancho was good in Bundesliga, doesn't mean he will be good in EPL, he already showing that he won't cut it here, he might need a very talented coach to get the best out of him, but that could just be about 10-30% of what he did in the Bundesliga. As for Pogba, they are still calling him WC, even though he hasn't done jack shit since he arrived in england. The only moments of brilliance from him arrived playing with our own Kante in the french national team and those where max 20 games since 2016. Every player of theirs are being rated by them for what they maybe in few games last season or the season before have done, which haven't produced anything significant in any meaningful way in terms of trophies. That doesn't make them WC players, but they are still calling them that.
Or, you'll see a top player adapt to a system. One of the reasons you're seeing an individualistic player at United is we've only seen him play under a coach who doesn't have a clue what he's doing.
I think Fernandes will walk into Chelsea's team because midfield creativity (goals and assists) has been a big problem. The team's organization will deal with the misplaced passes and his goals and assists will more than make up for his shortcomings. Other than that, I can't really comment on any other positions. Comparing squads is not easy, as we can't really tell what managers will do, and it is even more tricky when one team is in good form and the other is not.
Sancho was definitively better than Havertz in Bundesliga.Sancho was not better than Havertz in Bundesliga and has not been better in the PL. Silly argument that he could be. He has to show it.
De Gea over Mendy
I’m sorry but this is nonsense.
I rate Havertz and really hope he improves his consistency to become a great player for us but the notion that he’s way ahead of Rashford is nonsense. Rashford has scored 20+ goals on more than two occasions and I’m pretty sure he would start for Chelsea more often than not under Tuchel.
Also Mendy is prob the best goalie in the world this calendar year but De Gea was prob the best in the world or at worst top 2-3 for about 3-5 years so Mendy will need to sustain this level for at least another season or two to say that he’s surpassed him. Mendy has been fortunate to work under a supremely elite world class manager. De Gea’s peak just coincided with a lot of mediocre United teams post SAF so context matters. Mind you if I’m picking a team today, I’m choosing Mendy 10000%.
Utter nonsense. Bruno will get in as a #10 or in an advanced role in the final third in most teams. Play him instead of Havertz/Mount in the current Chelsea team and he'd rack goals and assists for fun.
The coach that doesn't have a clue what he's doing had Bruno playing well though, Signed in January won the fans player of the season 5 months later.
Followed by another good season and then a stinker of a Euros. Bit odd to blame a players performances purely down to a manager.
Hazard didn't exactly play under elite managers at Chelsea, he was still brilliant under all of them whoever was in charge.
I wasn't saying his performances were bad. Only that the idea that he couldn't play in a top manager's "system" is not a fair statement until we've actually seen him play under an elite manager's system.
I remember the same was said for prime Mata for us and it was equally laughed at. The heroball type of players don't tend to win you league's, even the best one's (Gerrard).
Put it this way, under say Ten Hag is it beyond possibility that he may favour the system friendly Van De Beek? Especially in big games and beyond that, if a new manager decides to go 433 or 352 where would he fit in?
Also there's the elephant in the room that him and Ronaldo together simply don't work and there's only one winner if a manager needs sacrifice one for team balance.
According to Newsnow, Mason Mount is very unhappy at not playing enough and his wages are to low for how good he is (not playing at all well atm) and Liverpoop are going to try to buy Pulisic as he isn't playing enough at Chelsea..
Ok yeah my bad, thats a fair point. I just find it amusing the same players that played well last season for Utd had nothing to do with Ole but as soon as those same players now are play poorly it's all down to Ole.
Surely it works both ways?. I actually do think Bruno has been playing poorly though.
By who? You?
Michael Laudrup, the poster boy for playing hollywood through balls won 4 La Ligas under the greatest exponent of total football - Johan Cruyff, in the same team that had Pep Guardiola. I could give countless examples but it is pointless over here.
He will play both.
left/right in the front three in 433 and AM in 352.
More baseless crap.
That post kept on getting more shambolic with every line.
Bruno and Ronaldo have combined for several goals this season already despite the whole team being an absolute shambles, their link up is literally the only positive thing about the season so far.
Again, judging players on a couple of months under a completely inept manager where the players have basically stopped playing for him. We could have slated a lot of Chelsea players last season under Lampard.
And Bruno hasn't? He's single-handedly carried this team for the past 2 years dragging it to top 4 twice and even finishing 2nd. Bruno has his faults, faults that under a top manager would be quickly rectified, but let's not pretend Hazard was at the top of his game all of the time. He had some spells that he was absolutely unplayable, especially under Mourinho and Conte, but at the same time he had spells were he was completely anonymous. Bruno has been absolute shit this season, but even in his shit form he has basically scrounged us a number of points, both in the CL and PL.
You guys seriously believe that you'd challenge for the league if Ole was in charge of your club? Or even play good football? Not long ago you were talking about a full rebuild, then you hired a great manager and went on to win the CL and are title favorites without much change to your squad. Even if we pretend Chelsea are somehow a better team than us, you're not that much better in terms of quality. We should still be right there on top of you if we had a similar calibre of manager at the helm. Liverpool are the same. Who can argue here that a midfield of Fabinho-Henderson-Oxlade Chamberlain is championship material? On paper it's the same dross as ours, yet Klopp has them performing while Ole can't. It's that simple.
They're both very good.
I will wait and see how this turns out in the long run but as for now he has greatly surprised me. I never thought he would come in and turn things around so quickly for them. Certainly a top quality manager.
Fabinho is. Henderson is bang average.