The chinese are happy with their "undemocratic" situation, they fully support the CCP, and they're happy with their condition.I have heard this line of argument many many times and it baffles me every time. This is about a country which still 'gives freedom' for people to have 2 children. I have to ask, is there a point after living for a while in functioning democracies that this opinion flips?
Also how does that bolded part make sense? Really curious, what is the rationale behind that thought process?
Who said anything about being peaceful. Very early on it was made clear HKers have escalated because ‘Carrie Lam taught us peaceful protests are useless’ on June 9Peaceful my arse.
The mainlanders can do what they want, the fact is the CCP promised HK universal suffrage and they have reneged on it.The chinese are happy with their "undemocratic" situation, they fully support the CCP, and they're happy with their condition.
Something westerner have a hard time to understand, that not everyone wants your brand of democracy.
Here are the facts of what life was like for HKers under colonial rule.
- No free elections, their governor was some dude chosen by some other dudes 6,000 miles away, none of whom we have any say in picking.
It's not much more undemocratic than the 'democracy' in countries such as America for example when often the person who wins the 'public vote' doesn't get the Presidency - Democracy my arse. Is Democracy really all that anyway? It has brought us the wonder that is BREXIT.The chinese are happy with their "undemocratic" situation, they fully support the CCP, and they're happy with their condition.
Something westerner have a hard time to understand, that not everyone wants your brand of democracy.
Here are the facts of what life was like for HKers under colonial rule.
- No free elections, their governor was some dude chosen by some other dudes 6,000 miles away, none of whom we have any say in picking.
The people who are being attacked in most videos are undercover police officers, or suspected of being such. The police have admitted using them to infiltrate the protest groups, and they have also been using other independent groups like the triad gangs and mainland Chinese groups to stir up violence.I won't weigh in on the whole China vs HK side, as my experience is limited to visiting China for a holiday and stop overs in HK.
But those videos and others that have come out of the protesters just make them look like animals, that are looking to attack anyone that doesn't agree with them. Not to mention cause significant more damage to people who are clearly knocked out. From that it looks like the police have been very restrained, and if anything haven't been strong enough to quell the violence.
You actually believe that? Not gonna argue if you choose to believe such absurt stuff as real.The people who are being attacked in most videos are undercover police officers, or suspected of being such. The police have admitted using them to infiltrate the protest groups, and they have also been using other independent groups like the triad gangs and mainland Chinese groups to stir up violence.
Just like the Umbrella protests in 2014 the police have made a right mess of handling it and have turned the population completely against them.
Makes it quite easy to believe it when they find police ID cards on them...You actually believe that? Not gonna argue if you choose to believe such absurt stuff as real.
No wonder you got brexit and trump. People believe all sorts of theory these days
You actually don't believe it? Police infiltrates in all big and important demonstrations. It always happens. Some of them even incites violence to make the protesters look bad.Is a well known tacticYou actually believe that? Not gonna argue if you choose to believe such absurt stuff as real.
No wonder you got brexit and trump. People believe all sorts of theory these days
Ok.You actually don't believe it? Police infiltrates in all big and important demonstrations. It always happens. Some of them even incites violence to make the protesters look bad.Is a well known tactic
I didn't realise being "suspected' of being a police officer made it ok to have someone continually kick you in the head while your knocked out... Nor masses of people to throw bricks at small groups of police, and when they down one, to continually attack and target them. The people who do that will always be animals in my mind.The people who are being attacked in most videos are undercover police officers, or suspected of being such. The police have admitted using them to infiltrate the protest groups, and they have also been using other independent groups like the triad gangs and mainland Chinese groups to stir up violence.
Just like the Umbrella protests in 2014 the police have made a right mess of handling it and have turned the population completely against them.
That is when you incite violence, that you provoke more violence from the real protestors. It doesn't matter what you say, I saw it from my own eyes in my country, I saw in my own eyes when they were discovered, they had to be escorted for the police after provoking in a peaceful demostration on 2011 for the crisis. That provocation lead to a police charge. Demostrators didn't bite and identified themOk.
HK Police plants undercover that beats up the real uniform cop for a propaganda. And they concerted and made the crowd detained a tourist and beat him up for hours... that's new.
https://edition-m.cnn.com/2019/08/15/asia/hong-kong-airport-violence-intl-hnk/index.html?r=https://www.google.com/
Even cnn starts to change their tune as they see fit.
If you rather believe that there's a Massive, Structurized, and Systemic instruction from CCP to the Hong Kong Royal Police, to infiltrate in large number and spread all across hundred thousands of protester, to instigate the use of violence, in order to make the protester looks bad for propaganda is indeed what happens.That is when you incite violence, that you provoke more violence from the real protestors. It doesn't matter what you say, I saw it from my own eyes in my country, I saw in my own eyes when they were discovered, they had to be escorted for the police after provoking in a peaceful demostration on 2011 for the crisis. That provocation lead to a police charge. Demostrators didn't bite and identified them
Other videos like infiltrated and detaining people while infiltrated
Another the policeman in disguise is hit by the police in uniform and he identify himself. " I am one of yours!" and they finally recognize him. He was up front provoking
And the final proof on the news were they police says that they do that as a well known tactic, that they specialize in groups, with the cloths and slang, football, politics, etc... Of course they will never recognize the provocation, but had been caught redhanded
And that happens in a theoretical democratic country. Imagine in a non so democratic China
I am not saying that the video of that policeman was because the police incited violence. And sure wasn't a policeman who did it. Another thing would be who would ignited the violence unchaining this situation. Might not be this time, but had been others as it happened before
Massive? what do you mean?If you rather believe that there's a Massive, Structurized, and Systemic instruction from CCP to the Hong Kong Royal Police, to infiltrate in large number and spread all across hundred thousands of protester, to instigate the use of violence, in order to make the protester looks bad for propaganda is indeed what happens.
It seems that your mind has been made up and I don't think anything can change your mind.
And of course we know this because they have the freedom to speak openly about politics and their leaders without any fear of repercussion. I mean it's not like the chinese government imprisons people who oppose them politically.The chinese are happy with their "undemocratic" situation, they fully support the CCP, and they're happy with their condition.
Like they do in the US during the cold war? Maybe now everyone's happy because they imprison anyone that doesntAnd of course we know this because they have the freedom to speak openly about politics and their leaders without any fear of repercussion. I mean it's not like the chinese government imprisons people who oppose them politically.
And I like how you put undemocratic in quotes, it really tells you everything you need to know about where you're coming from.
I believe you call this lynching in the states. Put aside all the west vs east stuff for a while. How do you expect to safe the man? If this happens in Heathrow or jfk what would the police do? Incase you wonder this is a chinese person, my race. How do you feel if your race was tied up, beaten for hours, paraded tied on a cart? Imagine if that happens to a black person in 2019, or to a european, or korean, or any other race or citizen. You call that democracy and freedom fighters?Just look at how media in the West are reporting on the situation in Hong Kong right now.
Take this ABC (American) news report for example:
Sounds like fair, objective reporting to you?
Did you notice anything amiss? Focus just on the story of the man targeted by the protesters. What happened to him according to this report? He was a reporter from a Chinese state-owned newspaper, they accused him of being a spy, tied him up to a baggage cart….. until he was brought away by paramedics? Is it just me or is some part of the story missing here? What really did happen to the man?
Well, thanks to Singaporean media, we get to see the action up close:
If you understand Cantonese, you can hear pleas of ‘stop, you’ll kill him’. Someone even said ‘I respect reporters!’. (Also interesting is the flag in the video)
But surely, this is just a dispensable detail. A soundbite from a random traveler passing through saying people seem to be angry and no one is listening to them encapsulates the story better, right?
Turns out the guy’s name is Fu GuoHao, a reporter for the Global Times (Mainland Chinese media), and the protesters were angered when they found a printed t-shirt in his bag saying ‘I love HK police’.
I found the story on Reuters too. Again, no mention of the guy being beaten up. But ominous threats from the Chinese state and support for oppressors by the brainwashed mainland masses? Sure
Are you sure you quoted the right post? I said nothing about cold war politics or HK's level of democracy.Like they do in the US during the cold war? Maybe now everyone's happy because they imprison anyone that doesnt
Did you know how democratic the hongkong under UK?
Yes. But you wouldn't listen or believe it anyway.Are you sure you quoted the right post? I said nothing about cold war politics or HK's level of democracy.
I argued China is an oppressive dictatorship, do you dispute that?
You're right, don't waste your time trying to convince me China is not a dictatorship.Yes. But you wouldn't listen or believe it anyway.
I don't think so... China does not recognise dual citizenshipAdditional info carrie lam is a british citizen btw.
Have you spent much time in China?You're right, don't waste your time trying to convince me China is not a dictatorship.
No.Have you spent much time in China?
Thought so
Do you need to spend time in a country to be able to classify its regime as a dictatorship?Thought so
No you can classify it however you see fit... and of course people can just accept or dismiss it as they see fit... So im wondering what exactly you base it on if it's not your extensive personal knowledge of china.Do you need to spend time in a country to be able to classify its regime as a dictatorship?
The same way I base my opinions of almost everything I know about the world: books, newspapers and documentaries.No you can classify it however you see fit... and of course people can just accept or dismiss it as they see fit... So im wondering what exactly you base it on if it's not your extensive personal knowledge of china.
Oh you're one of those who denies Tienanmen happened, right?Like they do in the US during the cold war? Maybe now everyone's happy because they imprison anyone that doesnt
Did you know how democratic the hongkong under UK?
it didnt, the man in the iconic photos is still aliveOh you're one of those who denies Tienanmen happened, right?
Wow.it didnt, the man in the iconic photos is still alive
Is this satire, or are you genuinely saying the Tienanmen Square massacre didn't happen?it didnt, the man in the iconic photos is still alive
Having seen some of his other posts I'm certain that he believes it.Is this satire, or are you genuinely saying the Tienanmen Square massacre didn't happen?
Wow.
Are you a flat Earther, too?
I think he means the famous picture of the tank facing off with the protestor.Is this satire, or are you genuinely saying the Tienanmen Square massacre didn't happen?
I am very careful in classifying countries as dictatorships as I believe every country has their history, society, culture, etc...I believe as well, that every country has a suitable way to be ruled because of their idiosyncrasy and their moment in their own history and that western democracy can't be exported. Sometimes I can't help it and the word dictatorship slip my mouth maybe because I associate it to what the media tells me and biased personal believes. That is why I classify China authoritarian, as I do in other countries considered democratic as authoritarian is a broad term depending on personal perceptions and believes.No you can classify it however you see fit... and of course people can just accept or dismiss it as they see fit... So im wondering what exactly you base it on if it's not your extensive personal knowledge of china.
You may or may not believe me, but I grow up thinking the US as the good guys and how the Chinese are the communist. Our country (Indonesia) has a very muddled past with a "G30SPKI" Movement, where overnight the Indonesian Communist Party was accused of abducting, torturing, and killing 7 highest ranking general of Indonesian army, and there's a nationwide crackdown (cough.. killing) of all ICP members. Recently the US has declassified the CIA documents that acknowledges and actually proof beyond reasonable doubt that the CIA was to the very least involved in the tragedy. My ancestor ends up in Indonesia because they flee the cultural revolution under Mao, so it's not like I owe them anything to lick their arse clean, suffice to say we're refugees ourselves.I am very careful in classifying countries as dictatorships as I believe every country has their history, society, culture, etc...I believe as well, that every country has a suitable way to be ruled because of their idiosyncrasy and their moment in their own history and that western democracy can't be exported. Sometimes I can't help it and the word dictatorship slip my mouth maybe because I associate it to what the media tells me and biased personal believes. That is why I classify China authoritarian, as I do in other countries considered democratic as authoritarian is a broad term depending on personal perceptions and believes.
But do you think that a government that does what allegedly China does to for example more than 1 million of Uighur in concentration camps (or "reeducation") and imprison political dissidents should not be considered a dictatorship?
I am genuinely asking to you and to the people that lived and has strong ties with China and referring to Mainland China, not Hong Kong
What does that mean, though? In any case, he directly replied to a question about whether or not "Tiananmen happened" with "it didn't".I think he means the famous picture of the tank facing off with the protestor.
You may or may not believe me, but I grow up thinking the US as the good guys and how the Chinese are the communist. Our country (Indonesia) has a very muddled past with a "G30SPKI" Movement, where overnight the Indonesian Communist Party was accused of abducting, torturing, and killing 7 highest ranking general of Indonesian army, and there's a nationwide crackdown (cough.. killing) of all ICP members. Recently the US has declassified the CIA documents that acknowledges and actually proof beyond reasonable doubt that the CIA was to the very least involved in the tragedy. My ancestor ends up in Indonesia because they flee the cultural revolution under Mao, so it's not like I owe them anything to lick their arse clean, suffice to say we're refugees ourselves.
But,
As I grow older, I see and experience first hand the slow flow of history and see what the USA are capable of
As I grow older, visited US and China and Hongkong
As I grow older, I lived through 9/11
As I grow older, I understand what happened at Vietnam, Korea, Venezuela, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Yemen, and many other place of conflicts
As of now I see Trump and the Republicans and their shenanigans
As of now I see in fresh memory the whole Iran Debacle and how unjust they're being treated
The Trade deals and how Trump "abducted" the daughter of Huawei owner and blackmail China in the trade negotiations
The Bay of pigs and the invasion of Cuba
The Iran Contra
The rise of ISIS
while all of the above doesn't actually involved China, but looking at the above, seeing first hand how lives is in China, seeing first hand how lives is in Europe, UK, Australia, Singapore, Hongkong, I can draw a safe conclusions that most of the western portrayal of China is rubbish and pure propaganda.
