China bullies Hong Kong

[Foxbatt]

And I am saying this as someone who actually lived there. HK living standards are still miles higher than they are in China. I can understand that in the city centres it may look similar but it doesn't take long to get beneath the surface of that.

Have you lived in China too? In the bigger cities? I have for some time. The living standard is not lower than in HK for the average people anymore. Yes the rich in HK and especially in the financial world may earn slightly more in HK than in the bigger cities of China but not much so especially in Shanghai or Chendu, Wuhan or Shenzhen. The average HK employees live in a box like apartment, the whole family. Not so their equivalent Chinese neighbours . They have better housing now and better facilities now again in the big cities as HK is considered a big city and cannot be compared to some village in a province in China.

 

[Foxbatt]

This is probably doing wonders for those in Taiwan who want to remain separate from mainland China.

No one in Taiwan wants to be part of mainland China. On the other hand they also claim that mainland China is part of Taiwan and they are the rightful owners of mainland China which Mao or the CCP has illegally wrested it away from them.

 

[Ramshock]

China, like Israel and Putin are three entities that need a good slap.

 

[adexkola]

No one in Taiwan wants to be part of mainland China. On the other hand they also claim that mainland China is part of Taiwan and they are the rightful owners of mainland China which Mao or the CCP has illegally wrested it away from them.

They may claim that but only one side throws a tantrum when the other procures military jets. Does Taiwan have missiles pointed towards China?

 

[Foxbatt]

They may claim that but only one side throws a tantrum when the other procures military jets. Does Taiwan have missiles pointed towards China?

They do have Wan Chien cruise missiles aimed at the coastal towns of mainland China. As for procuring military jets, the Chinese now manufacturer their own jets.

 

[11101]

Have you lived in China too? In the bigger cities? I have for some time. The living standard is not lower than in HK for the average people anymore. Yes the rich in HK and especially in the financial world may earn slightly more in HK than in the bigger cities of China but not much so especially in Shanghai or Chendu, Wuhan or Shenzhen. The average HK employees live in a box like apartment, the whole family. Not so their equivalent Chinese neighbours . They have better housing now and better facilities now again in the big cities as HK is considered a big city and cannot be compared to some village in a province in China.

Going there on business, as you already said you have done, isn't living there. I spent 7 years there.

You might have a point (pollution aside) if you were talking about equivalent living standards of somebody in the French Concession in Shanghai, or Chaoyang Park in Beijing, but Chengdu and Wuhan? Not a chance.

 

[Sky1981]

Have you lived in China too? In the bigger cities? I have for some time. The living standard is not lower than in HK for the average people anymore. Yes the rich in HK and especially in the financial world may earn slightly more in HK than in the bigger cities of China but not much so especially in Shanghai or Chendu, Wuhan or Shenzhen. The average HK employees live in a box like apartment, the whole family. Not so their equivalent Chinese neighbours . They have better housing now and better facilities now again in the big cities as HK is considered a big city and cannot be compared to some village in a province in China.

That's the problem. Dollar wise hk citizen is richer than almost half the world but they cant afford a house. The facility of a modern city but the housing and rent make them live in poor condition. Those that lives in hk must have known this.

Imagine living with 2 kids on a 4x5 compartment. Shenzhen and rural china might not offer the modern city privilege but housing is abundant and affordable.

So yeah. They're rich but dont live like a king, scrapping to pay the mortgage if they're lucky, rent if they're not so lucky

 

[Cal?]

China is actually a meritocracy. I am not a Chinese but have been all over Asia too many a times. The issue of Uighur is a lot more than just "re education" camps. It is neither a concentration camp nor a re education camp. It is more of an open prison. But for the Uighers in there it is the religious issue and for the Chinese it is the fundamentalist Islamic terrorism that is the core issue.

There is actually a voting system in China where everyone can vote at some level to elect local committees who then elect higher committees who then go on that way to the NCP who elect the Sec.Gen of the CCP who mostly becomes the President. XI is going to get thrown out if he fails for sure. It is not the military but the NCP who will throw him out.

But that is separate from HK. China has not yet interfered in HK. It is adhering to the Basic Law. For people who say the extradition treaty to China is the issue it is not actually only to China but to many other countries including to Taiwan too. But China is the only one that is being Highlighted. Let me tell you those kind of extradition treaties are bad for everyone. Look at what happened to Snowden in HK. He was forced to fly from HK or else he would have been arrested and flown to the USA.
Look at what is happening in Canada. The CFO of Huwawei is being arrested for something she did against US laws which has got nothing to do with Canada.
So I entirely agree with the issue of the extradition treaty. They all should be banned.

Now as far as the concerned HK Police has been very restrained. No one has been kettled or even water cannons used. Yet the rioters have been very violent and beaten up two guy of which one was a reporter and another they thought was a policeman but now according to the Guardian is actually a student.
His name was googled and they found it the same name as of a policeman.
It is a lot more than just this that has boiled over in HK. HK will be a failed City if they do not stop this kind of activities. Actually the LegCo is a an elected body of 35 members directly elected by the electorate and 35 by the functional constituencies which is made of the other trade and business industry. Each sector of the trade and business has number of seats in the LegCo. This is where the problem is. This LegCo regulations were passed on to the HK LegCo from the time of the British. The article 68 says that eventually Universal suffrage must be used to elect all members of the council. Article 45 says about electing the CE. Now the FC does not want universal suffrage either as then they lose their 35 members. There is no way that China would also allow one man one vote without a veto over them. HK is not an independent country.
HK is part of China anyway and was taken at gunpoint and now returned after the 99 years. The Chinese has been very good in maintaining the Basic Law in HK and has not made anything to break it so far.
At the end of the day they did not even have to agree to the Basic Law and maintain one country two systems but very obligingly did it because of Taiwan whom they are encouraging to join China peacefully. Fat chance. They have kept HK by supporting the business there by not allowing the the Chinese airports and seaports to take away the business of HK. HK is the gateway to China now because the Chinese government wants it to be. If they want they could divert all their business to the mainland Chinese airports and airports and crush HK without the PLA setting a foot inside HK. (I know they have a garrison there).

I am truly curious of your background, cos all your posts are straight out of the CCP propaganda machine.

The NCP do not have the power to throw out Xi, he's all but declared himself emperor after getting rid of the term limits.

China has extensively interfered in Hong Kong over the last decade or so, it is bending the basic law at every opportunity.

As for the HK popo: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/08/18/world/asia/hong-kong-tear-gas.html

Regarding the extradition bill, the devil was in the detail, as I pointed out before which you ignored, the bill did NOT allow the HK courts to review the evidence provided by mainland authorities. This is completely different from the extradition treaties in the other countries.

China DOES have a veto over the CE that is stated in the Basic Law, it clearly says him/her needs to be appointed by them. However, China does not want to "lose face" by refusing to appoint a democratically elected person, so instead they mess about with the election process and came up with the ridiculous system where 601 people could decide on ALL the candidates on the ballot.

You have also conveniently ignored the fact that over 70% over foreign investment into China came from HK in 2018. Can they attract anywhere as much without the HK stock market?

 

[Cal?]

I do not know why some people keep not understanding the situation? I certainly do not think China is a beacon of democracy. I do not think anyone who knows about China would say it is a democracy. At the same time, they would not say it is a communist country either. Yes I know they have the Communist Party of China. But it does not mean it is any more communist than Singapore is. China is a meritocracy just like Singapore. North Korea calls themselves the Democratic Peoples Korea and they are not democratic either.

Now back to HK. So far China has not been involved directly. That does not mean it will not in the future. China does not need HK anymore and they would rather let it die than lose them physically. I am going to quote here

"The Chinese government is looking to restructure the three gateway ports in southern mainland China and Hong Kong, with the latter focusing on transshipment and imports into the mainland; Guangzhou serving domestic cargo; and Shenzhen geared toward exports, with some import handling.

The proposals are among five recommendations to bolster Hong Kong's freight and transport sector made to the Chinese government by central government adviser and Hong Kong lawmaker Frankie Yick Chi-ming following discussions with logistics service provider and shipper interests.

Shenzhen, Guangzhou, and Hong Kong — the third-, fifth-, and seventh-busiest container ports in the world, respectively — had a combined throughput of 67.3 million TEU in 2018. Shenzhen throughput was up 2.1 percent last year from 2017, while Guangzhou rose 7.64 percent, and Hong Kong was down 5.68 percent."

This shows that already the Chinese ports of Shenzhen and Guangzhou has already overtaken HK and the Beijing wants to help HK. But in the eventuality that HK rebels they will just let it die.

What is already worse in terms of the housing and financial problems in HK will multiply and the economy will collapse. Why HK survived was because it was the gateway to China. Without China HK will surely die. The break up with China will not be peaceful and like Iran with the US sanctions cannot survive HK cannot survive without China. Unlike Iran, HK has not much products either. The port will lose, the airport will lose and all the financial institutions will move to Shenzhen. Is anyone going to do any business with HK if the choice is between HK and mainland China?
I feel sorry for the people of HK. They have a lot more freedom than most countries and yet they want to destroy it. Enjoy it now while they can. There is nothing they can do about it by rioting. Try to get more legislators they support into the Legco. If they get an absolute majority then they can impeach the CE Carrie Lam and get rid of her.

Funny you want to talk about the ports without understanding any history to the situation.

This was the Hong Kong map under British rule before 1997, as part of the handover, China took Tai Ping Wan (the top right corner) from Hong Kong and gave it to Shenzhen, now where is this huge port you were talking about placed? Right there.

As for the financial institutions moving to Shenzhen, good luck with that without a freely traded RMB.

 

[Cal?]

I agree with you on most of this but the last sentence is no longer true. The living standards in HK for the general public is lower now than the equivalent in Chinese cities like Shenzhen etc. The Chinese government has massively improved the standard of living in China for a lot of people and that is why they are able to go abroad and especially HK and spend their money there. In HK an average worker would probably pay 65 to 70 % of his income on rent and this is why the standard of living is down. In China it is different as their plan is to build housing projects after housing projects. They are even building cities even now.
China is like Singapore now. Do not deal in Politics or corruption and you can do whatever you want to do and become rich. I am not saying this as a tourist who has been there but as someone who visits these places regularly for work and business.
I feel sorry for HK. To paraphrase Sir Winston, This is the beginning of the end for HK if this does not stop.

Care to explain how watching Youtube or socializing on FB is dealing in politics?

Or the not insignificant amount of people who have suffered cos the regime would not allow any complaining about anything? Ever heard of the big headed babies due to tainted milk?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...nd-babies-sick-from-tainted-Chinese-milk.html

Are those people dealing in politics?

 

[Cal?]

They do have Wan Chien cruise missiles aimed at the coastal towns of mainland China. As for procuring military jets, the Chinese now manufacturer their own jets.

You really do just take the CCP at their word over everything, don't you?

They make their own jets yet still do not have the capabilities to make the engines, mostly needing to buy them from Russia.

 

[Foxbatt]

You really do just take the CCP at their word over everything, don't you?

They make their own jets yet still do not have the capabilities to make the engines, mostly needing to buy them from Russia.

No need to look at CCP at their word. I am taking US and UK newspapers at their word on the missiles. As for the ports I have lived in Asia and worked in Asia and have been to HK and China and all the Asian countries for work more than I can count. I have been on site and have seen it myself a lot and obviously have done business in HK and China too. The main port is Guangzhou in the Pearl Delta region. HK's main exports are also from China and hence if they develop Guangzhou and Shenzhen the importance of HK will diminish.
Have you even been there to see how life is there? All you need is to go to HK and then either take the train or car to Shenzhen and you can see it for yourself. You maybe mistaking HK island but HK SAR has most of its land mass on mainland Asia.

 

[Cal?]

No need to look at CCP at their word. I am taking US and UK newspapers at their word on the missiles. As for the ports I have lived in Asia and worked in Asia and have been to HK and China and all the Asian countries for work more than I can count. I have been on site and have seen it myself a lot and obviously have done business in HK and China too. The main port is Guangzhou in the Pearl Delta region. HK's main exports are also from China and hence if they develop Guangzhou and Shenzhen the importance of HK will diminish.
Have you even been there to see how life is there? All you need is to go to HK and then either take the train or car to Shenzhen and you can see it for yourself. You maybe mistaking HK island but HK SAR has most of its land mass on mainland Asia.

Are you talking about jets or missiles?

I've lived in Hong Kong for most of the past 2 decades and worked for months in both Shanghai and Beijing and have visited Shenzhen more times than I can count. I'm not denying that the rest of China is growing quickly, however, HK's importance is not as a port, but mostly the financial market. There's a reason why so many Chinese companies choose to list in HK and not elsewhere in the world, do you think they do it out of the kindness of their heart or some kind of CCP policy? Alibaba is listed in the US.

It's all well and good to claim China can simply move the financial industry to Shanghai, do you think they haven't tried to do it over the past decades? Without a freely traded currency, that's simply not possible.

The point is that HK will survive much better without integrating, further integration will only lead to Hong Kong becoming just another Chinese city (with the lack of freedom they "enjoy").

 

[Sir Matt]

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I forgot to mention the absurdity of this since Twitter is blocked in China. That must be why they mentioned freedom of the press.

 

[Foxbatt]

You see the problem is that some people underestimate mainland China. This is the main reason why they have been able to get on with what they are doing. Pestering everyone around. I do not like the way they behave but you have to be realistic when dealing with China. Look at the Philipines and Vietnam. The Chinese don't care what anyone else thinks and they know that they have the manpower and the financial clout. It is better to be realistic and do understand what they plan to do. Unless the US and that is the only country that has the military muscle to fight the Chinese, go to war with China, they will do what they want to do in HK. . And the US is not going to war over HK no matter what.
But at this moment in time , they have not sent any Police or troops from mainland China and to be honest they would be fools to do so as they can squeeze HK without doing so. The election is next year and they will probably let Carrie Lam carry on till then and quietly dump her.

 

[Cal?]

You see the problem is that some people underestimate mainland China. This is the main reason why they have been able to get on with what they are doing. Pestering everyone around. I do not like the way they behave but you have to be realistic when dealing with China. Look at the Philipines and Vietnam. The Chinese don't care what anyone else thinks and they know that they have the manpower and the financial clout. It is better to be realistic and do understand what they plan to do. Unless the US and that is the only country that has the military muscle to fight the Chinese, go to war with China, they will do what they want to do in HK. . And the US is not going to war over HK no matter what.
But at this moment in time , they have not sent any Police or troops from mainland China and to be honest they would be fools to do so as they can squeeze HK without doing so. The election is next year and they will probably let Carrie Lam carry on till then and quietly dump her.

The election is not next year, it’s in 2022. For someone who pretends to know HK/China so well, you’re rather ill-informed.

Just some of the police brutality I talked about, if this goes on in hospitals, makes you wonder what happens at police ststaions.

 

[Sky1981]

https://thegrayzone.com/2019/08/17/hong-kong-protest-washington-nativism-violence/

 

[4bars]

Any person that believe that their police don't have abusive personnel and their boses they well know who they are and they use them, they live in a bubble, not only in China but in every single democracy and some places more than others

 

[11101]

I really, really hope this is true

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https://www.indiatoday.in/trending-...tt-damon-from-jason-bourne-1574485-2019-07-28

 

[Foxbatt]

My bad. It is in 2020.

 

[Member 60376]

https://www.reddit.com/r/gifs/comments/ctyc5c/tear_gas_canisters_filmed_raining_in_hong_kong/

 

[Cal?]

My bad. It is in 2020.

The CE election is in 2022.

The LegCo election is in 2020.

Carrie Lam is the CE.

 

[Cal?]

I really, really hope this is true

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https://www.indiatoday.in/trending-...tt-damon-from-jason-bourne-1574485-2019-07-28

I wouldn’t call her a ‘leader’, but that was posted by a pro-Beijing idiot

 

[mariachi-19]

I really, really hope this is true

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https://www.indiatoday.in/trending-...tt-damon-from-jason-bourne-1574485-2019-07-28

Meanwhile, international man of mystery was last seen at a casino in Macau playing roulette

 

[Suedesi]

Surely the solution is simply to send some gun boats and start shooting up civilian populations till China agrees to sell opium for you and gives you hk for another hundred years

What could possibly go wrong with that... It's a proven solution

Make Britain Great Again etc

Haha, yeah that'd be the 'democratic' way.

 

[Cal?]

Meanwhile, international man of mystery was last seen at a casino in Macau playing roulette

I thought he was in Mars?

 

[Suedesi]

What exactly are the protesters trying to accomplish - short of independence which will never happen - what's the end goal here? Sorry, the media coverage in the US is 30 seconds at best, and very superficial.

 

[Foxbatt]

What exactly are the protesters trying to accomplish - short of independence which will never happen - what's the end goal here? Sorry, the media coverage in the US is 30 seconds at best, and very superficial.

Some of it is achievable if they go down the proper route. 1. Get Carrie Lam (CE) to resign. (2) Do away with the extradition treaty (Actually the CE says it is indefinitely suspended). The CE can say it has been withdrawn. 3. Get the Triad members who attacked them arrested but at the same time a lot of them would be arrested too for the violence. That's probably the maximum they can do.
Legally they cannot force to accept that there was no rioting as so much damage was done by them in rioting. The protestors want universal suffrage without the nominating committee for the CE. They want anyone to be able to run for the CE. Now only the candidates nominated by the committee can be on the ballot. The issue is also the composition of the selection committee. This committee is being chosen from the various sectors and certain sectors have more seats than others. The business community has more and though they are elected, it is like a TU congress where some have more seats than others.
So the opposition says that this is not fair as it favours some sectors more. This is true in that this committee should not have been sectorised. But even the Legislative Council is sectorised.
So the Chief Executive actually gets universal suffrage but only on a candidate that has been nominated by this said committee.
Some of the protestors wanted to elect their own CE without anything to do with mainland Chinese government. Unfortunately that is not going to happen. HK itself is screwed because as I have mentioned some communities have too much power even in the legislative assembly. If the assembly becomes open in that all the members are elected by universal suffrage it would be much better but the cause of most of the problems is the business community having too much power over all the of HK including the CE and they do not want equality. The housing problem is the main cause of problems. They can get freedom but unless the housing is sorted out nothing will be sorted out.

 

[mu4c_20le]

What exactly are the protesters trying to accomplish - short of independence which will never happen - what's the end goal here? Sorry, the media coverage in the US is 30 seconds at best, and very superficial.

Who cares though? The enemy is China here so they must be right, whatever it is they are fighting for, it's worth it. Get behind.

 

[Whiskey Red]

More unrest in Hong Kong, tear gas, rubber bullets and water cannons used to disperse crowds.

The protesters lit fires, threw petrol bombs and attacked a government building.

Not looking forward to China's response to this. Alot of people may start disappearing

 

[matherto]

I really, really hope this is true

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https://www.indiatoday.in/trending-...tt-damon-from-jason-bourne-1574485-2019-07-28

JESUS CHRIST THAT'S JASON BOURNE!

 

[Marcelinho87]

Wish the UK would grant asylum to those affected in HK, would be a great statement.

 

[sun_tzu]

Wish the UK would grant asylum to those affected in HK, would be a great statement.

Wish the EU would grant citizenship to those of us who don't want to be dragged out of the EU... How about the UK government fixes that first without kicking off a huge row with china?

 

[K13]

More unrest in Hong Kong, tear gas, rubber bullets and water cannons used to disperse crowds.

The protesters lit fires, threw petrol bombs and attacked a government building.

Not looking forward to China's response to this. Alot of people may start disappearing

They are so well co-ordinated but I do fear for them - they may well disappear or end up in the 'lets re-educate you so you are nice and placid and easy to rule over' camps.

 

[Marcelinho87]

Wish the EU would grant citizenship to those of us who don't want to be dragged out of the EU... How about the UK government fixes that first without kicking off a huge row with china?

Only mentioned it due to it being under British rule up until fairly recently... The EU/UK thing is irrelevant imo.

 

[sun_tzu]

Only mentioned it due to it being under British rule up until fairly recently... The EU/UK thing is irrelevant imo.

Well it never actually belonged to UK did it... It was just essentially a port we killed people to be allowed to rent (and sell drugs)
I'd say Kashmir is an area for example the UK perhaps should have more historic responsibility given what's happening...
Though in both circumstances perhaps somebody jumping on the whole brexit grenade before it blows up is of more immediate relevance to its own actual citizens

 

[Cal?]

Some of it is achievable if they go down the proper route. 1. Get Carrie Lam (CE) to resign. (2) Do away with the extradition treaty (Actually the CE says it is indefinitely suspended). The CE can say it has been withdrawn. 3. Get the Triad members who attacked them arrested but at the same time a lot of them would be arrested too for the violence. That's probably the maximum they can do.
Legally they cannot force to accept that there was no rioting as so much damage was done by them in rioting. The protestors want universal suffrage without the nominating committee for the CE. They want anyone to be able to run for the CE. Now only the candidates nominated by the committee can be on the ballot. The issue is also the composition of the selection committee. This committee is being chosen from the various sectors and certain sectors have more seats than others. The business community has more and though they are elected, it is like a TU congress where some have more seats than others.
So the opposition says that this is not fair as it favours some sectors more. This is true in that this committee should not have been sectorised. But even the Legislative Council is sectorised.
So the Chief Executive actually gets universal suffrage but only on a candidate that has been nominated by this said committee.
Some of the protestors wanted to elect their own CE without anything to do with mainland Chinese government. Unfortunately that is not going to happen. HK itself is screwed because as I have mentioned some communities have too much power even in the legislative assembly. If the assembly becomes open in that all the members are elected by universal suffrage it would be much better but the cause of most of the problems is the business community having too much power over all the of HK including the CE and they do not want equality. The housing problem is the main cause of problems. They can get freedom but unless the housing is sorted out nothing will be sorted out.

The biggest problem with the previous version proposed by the mainland government was that it requires 50% of the committee to nominate any candidate. Therefore basically, 50% of the committee decides the next CE. Clearly they'll only nominate who they want + some utter moron that no one will vote for.

The CCP ultimately have to appoint the CE, so technically, even if HKers vote for someone they don't want, they can just refuse to appoint him/her.

 

[WensleyMU]

Once you scratch beneath the surface, you are always likely to discover Matt Damon is behind all of the world's ills.

 

[Adisa]

HK withdraws extradition bill. Incredible really Beijing has bowed.
Unlike 1989, sending the army was never an option. Would have done more damage than the protests.

 

[sun_tzu]

HK withdraws extradition bill. Incredible really Beijing has bowed.
Unlike 1989, sending the army was never an option. Would have done more damage than the protests.

wonder what will happen if the protests don't stop now though?...