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romufc

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I'd play Maguire, Linderlof and Tuanzebe ahead of Smalling. Because they're more natural footballers and fit the current team better. Smalling didn't want to be a reserve so it looks like he was allowed a loan move; that and his loyalty to the club being rewarded too.
Agreed, we have seen enough of Smalling over the 9 years. He is a good defender but no where near the quality we need going forward.
 

A-man

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If the CBs have most passes of the ball instead of the midfield, then they are starting attacks. Its not a midfielder like Veratti or Jorginho coming to get the ball off the CBs and dominating the ball from midfield. Or even Matic a couple of seasons ago.
I personally think this is not the way to tell if a team play out from the back. I am not even sure you can tell from stats.

2 goals in 2 weeks at least
I think it was 2 goals so far this season. One of them many CBs who are strong in the air would have lost too. For Maguire I think failed headers have cost 1 goal so far, if I remember correctly. So overall relatively few goals created from losing headers. In at least two of these goals better covering from other defenders could have avoided the goal.
Overall I think there is only one headed goal conceded, which corresponds to 8% of conceded goals. This is well below the average in the PL which is 18%. The sample size is small, but so far the team has not conceded many goals from headers or because of lost headers in comparison to other teams.
 

A-man

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Fair enough. We can discuss for hours but only way would have known if it would have worked is if he had stayed. Even if he did stay you'd probably have a bunch of the same 'agenda guys' now blaming Lindelof for being bad on the ball blaming Smalling no matter what. Your best point is about the calmness on the ball in certain areas in the build up and even if I don't fully agree in the importance I have no way of disproving it. I think there is improvement in certain areas, at least a difference but to me it's not "better" overall. The package has been underwhelming so far to me, and it's a shame we never got to see Maguire and Chris.
You are really doing trade offs when you chose between Lindelof and Smalling, as they have very different sets of skills. Maybe that’s why it worked relatively good when they played together.
If it is worth the trade off is of course worth debating. Personally I think every manager must have a vision. If Ole’s vision means he needs CBs like Lindelof, then he should go for it. If it doesn’t work out, Ole should get sacked, but he must be given the chance to build a team the way he wants.
 
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Cassidy

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I personally think this is not the way to tell if a team play out from the back. I am not even sure you can tell from stats.


I think it was 2 goals so far this season. One of them many CBs who are strong in the air would have lost too. For Maguire I think failed headers have cost 1 goal so far, if I remember correctly. So overall relatively few goals created from losing headers. In at least two of these goals better covering from other defenders could have avoided the goal.
Overall I think there is only one headed goal conceded, which corresponds to 8% of conceded goals. This is well below the average in the PL which is 18%. The sample size is small, but so far the team has not conceded many goals from headers or because of lost headers in comparison to other teams.
Pretty sure we have conceded more than one?

Even so its better to look at how many have been conceded as a result of not dealing from airiel balls, whether they are crosses, set pieces and long punts forward.
 

A-man

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Pretty sure we have conceded more than one?

Even so its better to look at how many have been conceded as a result of not dealing from airiel balls, whether they are crosses, set pieces and long punts forward.
I could be wrong, but I only remember one goal from a header. And can’t remember that many goals coming from defending poorly in the air. Definitely not more than average at least. Agree on setpieces. It was the same last season. I think this comes more from poor organisation and DDG being passive reactive kind of goalkeeper however.
 

Cassidy

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I could be wrong, but I only remember one goal from a header. And can’t remember that many goals coming from defending poorly in the air. Definitely not more than average at least. Agree on setpieces. It was the same last season. I think this comes more from poor organisation and DDG being passive reactive kind of goalkeeper however.
Southampton I believe was a header and Brighton. Then also we have conceded a few where crosses should have been cleared away/dealt with. Of course DDG is also a part of that too
 

A-man

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Southampton I believe was a header and Brighton. Then also we have conceded a few where crosses should have been cleared away/dealt with. Of course DDG is also a part of that too
You’re right, two goals from headers. Forgot about Brighton. Another setpiece...
 

Zlaatan

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Even a pass to your teammate sideways can start an attack
Of course it can, but we're not talking hypotheticals here. Otherwise you can also say that the winger with the most crosses will also have the most assists because every cross can be an assist.

Do you think that there's only one player on the team that has started more attacks than Lindelöf this season?
 

Ekeke

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Of course it can, but we're not talking hypotheticals here. Otherwise you can also say that the winger with the most crosses will also have the most assists because every cross can be an assist.

Do you think that there's only one player on the team that has started more attacks than Lindelöf this season?
"Most crosses that reach a teammate" is a very good indicator of a good winger.

What do you consider starting an attack? If its finding a teammate who is able to move the ball forward then it would never be a surprise for a CB to start the 2nd most attacks
 

OverratedOpinion

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I can't help myself but feel somewhat glad for Smalling. He has been the best defender at Utd and probably England's best defender for years and he has been unfairly maligned due to being average on the ball.
 

Zlaatan

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"Most crosses that reach a teammate" is a very good indicator of a good winger.

What do you consider starting an attack? If its finding a teammate who is able to move the ball forward then it would never be a surprise for a CB to start the 2nd most attacks
I don't know how that's relevant to the analogy I used, but sure.
"Most passes that leads to an attack" is a very good indication of how many passes a player makes that leads to an attack, using "total number of passes" isn't, which is my entire point.

I would consider the start of an attack either a pass or a dribble/move that opens up the play and/or forces the defence to break from their formation which gives an opportunity to move the ball forward.
If you agree with that, do you think Lindelöf does that more than any other player bar Maguire? I certainly don't.
 

Ekeke

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I don't know how that's relevant to the analogy I used, but sure.
"Most passes that leads to an attack" is a very good indication of how many passes a player makes that leads to an attack, using "total number of passes" isn't, which is my entire point.

I would consider the start of an attack either a pass or a dribble/move that opens up the play and/or forces the defence to break from their formation which gives an opportunity to move the ball forward.
If you agree with that, do you think Lindelöf does that more than any other player bar Maguire? I certainly don't.
You will find stats for most accurate crosses. You will not find stats for "most passes that lead to an attack" as all passes lead to an attack
 

Classical Mechanic

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You will find stats for most accurate crosses. You will not find stats for "most passes that lead to an attack" as all passes lead to an attack
There are stats for that xGChain and xGBuildup. Although I remember that you claimed xG is bullshit which really undermines you if you want to be using stats to try and prove arguments all the time. The CAF will probably hate me for this but xG is an advanced metric and a step forward in statistical analysis, you should learn about it.

No doubt Liverpool we’re aware of this when they decided to sign Salah

https://statsbomb.com/2018/08/introducing-xgchain-and-xgbuildup/
 

Ekeke

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There are stats for that xGChain and xGBuildup. Although I remember that you claimed xG is bullshit which really undermines you if you want to be using stats to try and prove arguments all the time. The CAF will probably hate me for this but xG is an advanced metric and a step forward in statistical analysis, you should learn about it.
Stats are great, how you use them is key. Putting x in front of everything doesn't mean you've given them the right context and looked at the right combination of stats.

My xGiveashit about you thinking it undermines me is 0.0
 

Zlaatan

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You will find stats for most accurate crosses. You will not find stats for "most passes that lead to an attack" as all passes lead to an attack
No they obviously do not. You even defined what a pass that leads to an attack is in your previous post to me, and it was nowhere near "all passes lead to an attack".
Even if every pass was successful, which they most definitely are not, it still wouldn't be true.

The fact that you've dodged my question about Lindelöf twice is pretty telling as well.
 

Red00012

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Agreed, we have seen enough of Smalling over the 9 years. He is a good defender but no where near the quality we need going forward.
Exactly this. 35 pages arguing about him when he clearly isn’t good enough. He seems to be doing well at Roma and best of luck to him. I hope a permanent move can be sorted in January.
 

romufc

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Exactly this. 35 pages arguing about him when he clearly isn’t good enough. He seems to be doing well at Roma and best of luck to him. I hope a permanent move can be sorted in January.
There is still people on here adamant that he is a good passer. It's almost as if not watching him play for us alot of posters have forgotten? The short term memories is unreal.

Agreed, he is doing well and that is good on him and the sooner he gets a permanent move done the better.

If he is as good as some people make it, we should be able to fetch £30m surely? he only signed a new contract last season.

But in reality what fans see and what coaches see is different that is why £15m is probably enough to secure him
 

Andycoleno9

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This debate about him has gone to the point like his passing ability is the only reason why he is not here anymore. No, it is not only reason.
He had problem with his positioning. Too often he was caught in no man's land and losing his player.
For "best player in the air" he lost key headers in our penalty box too many times.
And about his passing ability; it wasn't just that he was bad in it, problem was that when he was under pressure he couldn't keep or pass the ball. His solution was to kick the ball out of play.

Smalling is solid defender and he had some great games for us and some good periods when he was in top form so it is insult to him that he is loaned/sold before Jones but tbh he had 8 seasons to establish himself as first option defender and he failed. I wish him luck because he was good servant of this club but it is really time to move on from debate is he good enough for us or not. The fact that we didn't had serious offers (for former NT defender in best football years) from PL clubs this summer says something.
 

Cassidy

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This debate about him has gone to the point like his passing ability is the only reason why he is not here anymore. No, it is not only reason.
He had problem with his positioning. Too often he was caught in no man's land and losing his player.
For "best player in the air" he lost key headers in our penalty box too many times.
And about his passing ability; it wasn't just that he was bad in it, problem was that when he was under pressure he couldn't keep or pass the ball. His solution was to kick the ball out of play.

Smalling is solid defender and he had some great games for us and some good periods when he was in top form so it is insult to him that he is loaned/sold before Jones but tbh he had 8 seasons to establish himself as first option defender and he failed. I wish him luck because he was good servant of this club but it is really time to move on from debate is he good enough for us or not. The fact that we didn't had serious offers (for former NT defender in best football years) from PL clubs this summer says something.
Many times covering for useless fullbacks. Our best defensive signing this summer was AWB for this reason.
 

Based Adnan

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This debate about him has gone to the point like his passing ability is the only reason why he is not here anymore. No, it is not only reason.
He had problem with his positioning. Too often he was caught in no man's land and losing his player.
For "best player in the air" he lost key headers in our penalty box too many times.
And about his passing ability; it wasn't just that he was bad in it, problem was that when he was under pressure he couldn't keep or pass the ball. His solution was to kick the ball out of play.

Smalling is solid defender and he had some great games for us and some good periods when he was in top form so it is insult to him that he is loaned/sold before Jones but tbh he had 8 seasons to establish himself as first option defender and he failed. I wish him luck because he was good servant of this club but it is really time to move on from debate is he good enough for us or not. The fact that we didn't had serious offers (for former NT defender in best football years) from PL clubs this summer says something.
Thank you. The way people go on about him here you'd think he was some sort of perfect defender who was moved on solely because of his lack of ability with the ball. He was far from a perfect defender. In his 9 seasons with us he had 1 stand out season in which he was protected by 2 DMs in front of him and his inability with the ball was covered for by Daley Blind next to him.

I'm glad he's doing well at Roma and I hope they buy him on a perm.
 

MyOnlySolskjaer

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Whatever metric I use? Is there any more straightforward method than measuring the amount of conceded goals and compare that to all other teams in the league? And there is since last round, only 3 teams which have conceded less goals than United. And 16 teams which have conceded more.

United is fourth best with 16 teams that are worse.

If you say 1 conceded goal per match is poor, remember that 16 teams are worse and only three teams are (slightly) better.

The problem is not the conceded goals, as they are among the best. The problem is that the top 4 teams have scored roughly 2 times more than United.
Good thing we have the most solid defence in the league besides City and Liverpool right?
 

Bobski

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It’s great but also shows the difference between PL and Serie A.
Perhaps, and if so that should be remembered when people demand Utd sign Skriniar, Romagnoli, Koulibaly, Manolas etc. Smalling in an admittedly small sample size has outplayed them all. There were people when the move was made who were saying he wouldn't get a game at Roma, probably the same ones who insisted he was a West Ham/Fulham level player.

The guy is a good player, who was on the end of far too much criticism, Must be refreshing for him to be judged solely on how he is playing without any biases or agendas.
 

A-man

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Perhaps, and if so that should be remembered when people demand Utd sign Skriniar, Romagnoli, Koulibaly, Manolas etc. Smalling in an admittedly small sample size has outplayed them all. There were people when the move was made who were saying he wouldn't get a game at Roma, probably the same ones who insisted he was a West Ham/Fulham level player.

The guy is a good player, who was on the end of far too much criticism, Must be refreshing for him to be judged solely on how he is playing without any biases or agendas.
Yes he is a good player and many do t appreciate what he has done for United, unfortunately. That said, I still think it was time to move on and it seems to work out great for him.
It’s very hard to predict how well the top CBs in Serie A would perform in PL. It’s a different type of football.
 

A-man

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I can't understand how you have come to this conclusion. It's this type of cuck/defeatist mindset why we are where we are.
I highly doubt my mindset has anything to do with the team’s performance. Facts are:

Out of 20 PL teams only 4 have better defensive records.

Out of 48 Europa League teams only United have zero conceded goals.
 

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I've said before, he's benefitted from the league being a slower in terms of pace and generally there's a lack of focus on pressing (priority is on positioning for most teams).

The best way to judge his development is if he is able to perform like this back at United.

He has certainly warranted a chance when his loan expires and should also be called up for England.
 

Shimo

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I highly doubt my mindset has anything to do with the team’s performance. Facts are:

Out of 20 PL teams only 4 have better defensive records.

Out of 48 Europa League teams only United have zero conceded goals.
When our defenders have been culpable for mistakes for the goals this season, our record is that good for total conceded is in spite of them, not because of them. We have been setup better and are drilled better throughout the team, so we are giving up less chances for the most part. But, when we do give up a few chances and our defenders aren't actually able to defend, we concede.

Go back to last season, our defenders were not the main reason we conceded so many, we had a constantly chopping and changing back 4, a manager that was angry at the world trying to prove a point and a midfield that was either slow or careless on the ball. We also sat a lot deeper, the low block so to speak, so we were constantly inviting pressure and as a result, we gave up lots of chances and goals.

At this point it's looking like a big mistake. Smalling is a excellent defender and more so one that is good at playing a high line, doesn't back off and let attackers get to our 18 yard box to score.
 

Ekeke

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Smalling has more goals and assists this season in 9 league matches than all but 4 of our players in our squad :

Rashford
Martial
James
McTominay

Everyone else needs to score and create more than they are
 

A-man

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When our defenders have been culpable for mistakes for the goals this season, our record is that good for total conceded is in spite of them, not because of them. We have been setup better and are drilled better throughout the team, so we are giving up less chances for the most part. But, when we do give up a few chances and our defenders aren't actually able to defend, we concede.

Go back to last season, our defenders were not the main reason we conceded so many, we had a constantly chopping and changing back 4, a manager that was angry at the world trying to prove a point and a midfield that was either slow or careless on the ball. We also sat a lot deeper, the low block so to speak, so we were constantly inviting pressure and as a result, we gave up lots of chances and goals.

At this point it's looking like a big mistake. Smalling is a excellent defender and more so one that is good at playing a high line, doesn't back off and let attackers get to our 18 yard box to score.
So what you’re basically saying if I understand you correctly, is that the good defensive record is in spite the four at the back but thanks to everybody else being so well drilled and set up. I don’t agree at all, especially since I have hardly seen a more dysfunctional midfield at this level.