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A-man

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They would as it's to hide weak players like Lindelof. I have already given you examples too.
2.8 won aerials per match is pretty average, not weak. Smalling is at 0.7 more won aerials per game as I wrote so not that far from.

Anyway:
You say Chelsea is an example of a team where all CBs win many headers and then you include Rudiger who has the same stats as Lindelof in terms of won aerials. Rudiger is good in the air, Lindelof poor, but they win equal amount of headers. Weird.

If you compare Chelsea and United centrebacks stats in the air:

United
Total 436 aerial attempts over season
Won 295
Lost 141

Chelsea
Tot 419
Won 261
Lost 158
 

ghagua

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No, he didn't develop it later, he was always aerially dominant player. When he was 21, he won 4.1 headers per 90 mins which is his second best, also aerial duel success of 75.93% which is his best ever.
Sometimes you have to wonder what games people watch when they compare heading ability between Smalling and Lindelof. Smalling is not error-strewn with his passing either, it's just that he might not have the range that Lindelof does. Anyway, my thing is a central defender has to do his job first which is to defend, then try and score a few goals from corners and stuff. There is no way they are going to affect the game with their range, unless they are regularly setting up attacks with their passing which neither Lindelof nor Maguire do. They should win the ball and let the midfielder at the base of the midfield set up attacking moves if possible.
 

Maluco

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People need to move on from Chris Smalling. He was never good enough for Man United. We need to move forward as a club. We have two modern CBs now, who despite their flaws, are far better footballers and far more reliable than Smalling.

We should be looking to address the position with another young, pacy CB who can complement the options we already have.

We should be selling Smalling as someone whose time has been and gone. Its a chapter I am happy to close. The future looks bright, but it doesn’t include players like Smalling, Lingard, Jones and Mata.
 

roonster09

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2.8 won aerials per match is pretty average, not weak. Smalling is at 0.7 more won aerials per game as I wrote so not that far from.

Anyway:
You say Chelsea is an example of a team where all CBs win many headers and then you include Rudiger who has the same stats as Lindelof in terms of won aerials. Rudiger is good in the air, Lindelof poor, but they win equal amount of headers. Weird.

If you compare Chelsea and United centrebacks stats in the air:

United
Total 436 aerial attempts over season
Won 295
Lost 141

Chelsea
Tot 419
Won 261
Lost 158
2.8 is his best ever and that's not good enough. Yes, it's not weak tbh but going by his career this season is exception.
Rudiger wins 3 duels per 90 mins, Lindelof 2.8. And no I didn't say Rudiger is strong in headers, you said CB headers will drop, I gave you examples of all CBs having good numbers, also yes Rudiger is a bad example.

Not sure what those totals supposed to tell us, that despite playing with Lindelof we are winning good number of headers?

Out of 46 CBs who played at least 15 games this season, Lindelof total header attempts ranks him at 36, even less than Fernandinho, And he ranks 30th in Aerial duels won per 90 mins. You may dress it up as much as you want, that's a very poor record, especially for a CB who doesn't win many headers, tackles.

Out of 46 CBs who played at least 15 games
36th is headers attempted
30th in headers won
44th in interceptions per game.
39th in clearances
40th in blocks
43rd in Tackles attempted
39th in Tackles won

He doesn't stand out even in one attribute. If he was good at least in 1 attribute it would have been easier to look past his weakness.

Also when it comes to on the ball ability, he doesn't even stand out in dribbling, he ranks 41st in accurate long passes.
 

romufc

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2.8 is his best ever and that's not good enough. Yes, it's not weak tbh but going by his career this season is exception.
Rudiger wins 3 duels per 90 mins, Lindelof 2.8. And no I didn't say Rudiger is strong in headers, you said CB headers will drop, I gave you examples of all CBs having good numbers, also yes Rudiger is a bad example.

Not sure what those totals supposed to tell us, that despite playing with Lindelof we are winning good number of headers?

Out of 46 CBs who played at least 15 games this season, Lindelof total header attempts ranks him at 36, even less than Fernandinho, And he ranks 30th in Aerial duels won per 90 mins. You may dress it up as much as you want, that's a very poor record, especially for a CB who doesn't win many headers, tackles.

Out of 46 CBs who played at least 15 games
36th is headers attempted
30th in headers won
44th in interceptions per game.
39th in clearances
40th in blocks
43rd in Tackles attempted
39th in Tackles won

He doesn't stand out even in one attribute. If he was good at least in 1 attribute it would have been easier to look past his weakness.

Also when it comes to on the ball ability, he doesn't even stand out in dribbling, he ranks 41st in accurate long passes.
So are you trying to say we have been playing with a back 3? Lindelof does nothing for us at the back? We have 3rd best defensive record... explain that?
 

roonster09

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So are you trying to say we have been playing with a back 3? Lindelof does nothing for us at the back? We have 3rd best defensive record... explain that?
Shows how good our team defensively is that we have 3rs best record with him in the side. A silent guardian.
 

romufc

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Shows how good our team defensively is that we have 3rs best record with him in the side. A silent guardian.
So essentially, we could play with Andreas Perreira in that position and it would work?

Okay what CB do you think in the PL is in line with Lindelof?
 

roonster09

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So essentially, we could play with Andreas Perreira in that position and it would work?

Okay what CB do you think in the PL is in line with Lindelof?
Sure, why Pereira, will stick training dummy.
 

ghagua

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Shows how good our team defensively is that we have 3rs best record with him in the side. A silent guardian.
Give it up buddy, Lindelof is responsible for us having the 3rd best defensive record. The rest of the team doesn't count.
 

roonster09

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Give it up buddy, Lindelof is responsible for us having the 3rd best defensive record. The rest of the team doesn't count.
I just dont understand how anyone can rate him so highly.
 

romufc

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Shows how good our team defensively is that we have 3rs best record with him in the side. A silent guardian.

This season Lindelof V Smalling. Bearing in mind Serie A is a slower league.

Duels won:
Smalling 65%
Lindelof 63.4 %

Areiel Duels
Smalling 70%
Lindelof 65.8%


Recoveries
Smalling 141
Lindelof 215

Passing accuracy
Smalling 92.5%
Lindelof 86.5%

Passing in opp half
Smalling 86.8%
Lindelof 77.7%

Penalties conceded
Smalling 3
Lindelof 0

Now you see that smalling comes out the better of Lindelof, now compare the stats when they are both playing in the same competition Europa league (granted smaller sample size)

Duels won:
Smalling 62.9%
Lindelof 100 %

Areiel Duels
Smalling 66.7%
Lindelof 100%


Recoveries
Smalling 24
Lindelof 16

Passing accuracy
Smalling 84.8%
Lindelof 92.5%

Passing in opp half
Smalling 71%
Lindelof 86.8%

Penalties conceded
Smalling 1
Lindelof 0
 

romufc

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Give it up buddy, Lindelof is responsible for us having the 3rd best defensive record. The rest of the team doesn't count.
Where have I said he is responsible for the record? Yet here you are agreeing he has nothing to do with our defence.

I just dont understand how anyone can rate him so highly.
I am not rating him highly, he does a job.

Can he be replaced? yes.
By Smalling? No.

I have always maintained to get close to the Liverpool's and City's we do need to improve on Lindelof. To say he is complete and utter crap is a joke though.
 

roonster09

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This season Lindelof V Smalling. Bearing in mind Serie A is a slower league.
Smalling is among the best in aerial duels, interceptions, blocks in Serie A, everything in top 10 and few of them in top 3-5.

Smalling is not some elite CB but he is better than Lindelof.
 

roonster09

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I am not rating him highly, he does a job.

Can he be replaced? yes.
By Smalling? No.

I have always maintained to get close to the Liverpool's and City's we do need to improve on Lindelof. To say he is complete and utter crap is a joke though.
Smalling > Lindelof, we need better CBs but Smalling is better than Lindelof.
 

romufc

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Smalling is among the best in aerial duels, interceptions, blocks in Serie A, everything in top 10 and few of them in top 3-5.

Smalling is not some elite CB but he is better than Lindelof.
Yep Serie A. No offence to Smalling but that league suits him perfectly.

Neither am I claiming Lindelof to be elite.

We have had Smalling here before and he has not done any better than Lindelof has. The way we want to play suits Lindelof better than Smalling.

If we went and signed a top quality CB this summer, Lindelof would be 3rd choice.
 

roonster09

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Yep Serie A. No offence to Smalling but that league suits him perfectly.

Neither am I claiming Lindelof to be elite.

We have had Smalling here before and he has not done any better than Lindelof has. The way we want to play suits Lindelof better than Smalling.

If we went and signed a top quality CB this summer, Lindelof would be 3rd choice.
He did much better than Lindelof, it's a shame when we signed better CB than Lindelof we had to loan Smalling instead of inferior CB.

Smalling stats were better in PL stoo.

Anyways no one is going to change, for me Smalling is much better CB than Lindelof, I don't Lindelof at all, he one of the most passive CBs I watched, not even 1 standout attribute.
 

JakeC

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Smalling is a better defender than Lindelof, Lindelof is a better footballer than Smalling.

I'd be delighted if Smalling came back and was happy being a rotation option, but at this stage in his career he's going to want to be one of the first names on the team sheet, which is happening in Italy and it's probably best for all parties if he moves on permanently. At the end of the day, he's been one of our most consistent players post SAF, and has won a few trophies with us and scored some important goals and should be remembered fondly.
 

Sandikan

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Smalling is a better defender than Lindelof, Lindelof is a better footballer than Smalling.

I'd be delighted if Smalling came back and was happy being a rotation option, but at this stage in his career he's going to want to be one of the first names on the team sheet, which is happening in Italy and it's probably best for all parties if he moves on permanently. At the end of the day, he's been one of our most consistent players post SAF, and has won a few trophies with us and scored some important goals and should be remembered fondly.
He was a decent player, but unfortunately didn't develop quite as we'd have liked, as he had phenomenal physical characteristics - all the things you'd want - height and heading ability, pace and strength.
Also unfortunately to be playing in an era where playing the ball seems to be treated more importantly than the above.
 

JakeC

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He did much better than Lindelof, it's a shame when we signed better CB than Lindelof we had to loan Smalling instead of inferior CB.

Smalling stats were better in PL stoo.

Anyways no one is going to change, for me Smalling is much better CB than Lindelof, I don't Lindelof at all, he one of the most passive CBs I watched, not even 1 standout attribute.
Lindelof has plenty of standout attributes. His positioning is excellent, his reading of the game in general is fantastic.
 

A-man

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2.8 is his best ever and that's not good enough. Yes, it's not weak tbh but going by his career this season is exception.
Rudiger wins 3 duels per 90 mins, Lindelof 2.8. And no I didn't say Rudiger is strong in headers, you said CB headers will drop, I gave you examples of all CBs having good numbers, also yes Rudiger is a bad example.

Not sure what those totals supposed to tell us, that despite playing with Lindelof we are winning good number of headers?

Out of 46 CBs who played at least 15 games this season, Lindelof total header attempts ranks him at 36, even less than Fernandinho, And he ranks 30th in Aerial duels won per 90 mins. You may dress it up as much as you want, that's a very poor record, especially for a CB who doesn't win many headers, tackles.

Out of 46 CBs who played at least 15 games
36th is headers attempted
30th in headers won
44th in interceptions per game.
39th in clearances
40th in blocks
43rd in Tackles attempted
39th in Tackles won

He doesn't stand out even in one attribute. If he was good at least in 1 attribute it would have been easier to look past his weakness.

Also when it comes to on the ball ability, he doesn't even stand out in dribbling, he ranks 41st in accurate long passes.
Lindelof
2.8 is his best ever and that's not good enough. Yes, it's not weak tbh but going by his career this season is exception.
Rudiger wins 3 duels per 90 mins, Lindelof 2.8. And no I didn't say Rudiger is strong in headers, you said CB headers will drop, I gave you examples of all CBs having good numbers, also yes Rudiger is a bad example.

Not sure what those totals supposed to tell us, that despite playing with Lindelof we are winning good number of headers?

Out of 46 CBs who played at least 15 games this season, Lindelof total header attempts ranks him at 36, even less than Fernandinho, And he ranks 30th in Aerial duels won per 90 mins. You may dress it up as much as you want, that's a very poor record, especially for a CB who doesn't win many headers, tackles.

Out of 46 CBs who played at least 15 games
36th is headers attempted
30th in headers won
44th in interceptions per game.
39th in clearances
40th in blocks
43rd in Tackles attempted
39th in Tackles won

He doesn't stand out even in one attribute. If he was good at least in 1 attribute it would have been easier to look past his weakness.

Also when it comes to on the ball ability, he doesn't even stand out in dribbling, he ranks 41st in accurate long passes.
As I said, he is average in the air.
It is his best year, so 2.8 is up to date with his current performance. Also, it seems as a steady progress. But he will never get really high number sin the air. Also he is not a reactive defender and won’t stand out in number of tackles or so.

What stands out compared to those 46 CBs is the result which I personally value more than amount of clearances. About 40 of 46 CBs play for teams that have conceded more goals Lindelof.
 

roonster09

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Lindelof

As I said, he is average in the air.
It is his best year, so 2.8 is up to date with his current performance. Also, it seems as a steady progress. But he will never get really high number sin the air. Also he is not a reactive defender and won’t stand out in number of tackles or so.

What stands out compared to those 46 CBs is the result which I personally value more than amount of clearances. About 40 of 46 CBs play for teams that have conceded more goals Lindelof.
Yeah with logics like this we have to argue players like Jesus are better than Mane and Salah as Jesus plays for the team that scored the most goals.

liverpool are the best defensive team, doesn't mean TAA is better defensively than AWB.
 

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Yeah with logics like this we have to argue players like Jesus are better than Mane and Salah as Jesus plays for the team that scored the most goals.

liverpool are the best defensive team, doesn't mean TAA is better defensively than AWB.
I agree with what you say and also have a hard time understanding how someone can rate Lindelöf so high. Smalling is by far the better defender and Lindelöf really doesn't have an outstanding attribute to name.
 

roonster09

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I agree with what you say and also have a hard time understanding how someone can rate Lindelöf so high. Smalling is by far the better defender and Lindelöf really doesn't have an outstanding attribute to name.
Yeah, IMO Maguire and Smalling might look good defensively and also get few more goals from set pieces as we will have 2 who are good at attacking the ball.

It might not happen, hopefully we sign one more CB to replace Lindelof if not with Smalling.
 

Kamprad

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They’re completely different type of defenders so unfair comparing stats. Lindelof is a supporting CB who reads the game and falls back. Smalling is athletic and more aggressive. I personally prefer Lindelöf at the moment, especially to play with Maguire.
 

Borussia Teeth

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I think the Lindeloff/ Smalling debate is like apples and oranges. Smalling is certainly a better defender, quicker, stronger and better in the air.
However, Lindeloff is considebly more comfortable with the ball at his feet which is important. If we refer back to our league win at the Etihad, we were able to execute our counter attacks because we had 2 centre backs that could play football. If Smalling was playing then we probably wouldn't have got out of our half.
One could argue that there are certain games where Smalling's attributes are needed more, so overall I believe they're about the same level. Maguire is slightly better than both of them so we should try and buy a better partner for him. I would personally keep Lindeloff as backup and sell Smalling.
 

ghagua

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Where have I said he is responsible for the record? Yet here you are agreeing he has nothing to do with our defence.



I am not rating him highly, he does a job.

Can he be replaced? yes.
By Smalling? No.

I have always maintained to get close to the Liverpool's and City's we do need to improve on Lindelof. To say he is complete and utter crap is a joke though.
Where have I mentioned you in my post? I've had this argument with multiple people on this site. Maybe I should have quoted you showing the defensive record as if the rest of the team had nothing to do with it.
 

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Smalling > Lindelof, we need better CBs but Smalling is better than Lindelof.
True. Another way of judging CB quality, is how confident you're if a CB partnering others. For instance, I am more confident to see Smalling partnering Tuanzebe then Lindelof partnering Tuanzbe in a game. I'm more confident to see Baily being partnered with Smalling or Maguire than Lindelof. You can draw conclusion from that.
 

A-man

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Yeah with logics like this we have to argue players like Jesus are better than Mane and Salah as Jesus plays for the team that scored the most goals.

liverpool are the best defensive team, doesn't mean TAA is better defensively than AWB.
So basically your opinion is that a centre back who played 35 of 38 matches has nothing to do with the defensive result? Who has then, if not the centrebacks?
 

A-man

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They’re completely different type of defenders so unfair comparing stats. Lindelof is a supporting CB who reads the game and falls back. Smalling is athletic and more aggressive. I personally prefer Lindelöf at the moment, especially to play with Maguire.
This is what I’ve tried to explained with my last ten posts. They are good in different ways and both have their place.
 

roonster09

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So basically your opinion is that a centre back who played 35 of 38 matches has nothing to do with the defensive result? Who has then, if not the centrebacks?
He is the player on the pitch, ofcourse he will have some impact, maybe the least out of defensive players.
 

Revan

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Eh? It's bit rich coming from Mrs Lindelof.

No, Aerials won shows how good player is at heading the ball, you can play Lindelof in any role, he won't win many headers.
To be fair, number of them won (for 90 minutes) is important, but it also shows only half of the story. The other half is the percentage of aerial duels won. Last season when they played together, Smalling was slightly better in that aspect, having a 65% rate, with Lindelof having a 62.7% rate. This season though, Lindelof has improved though, and had a 65.7% win rate which is higher than that of Smalling from last year (but lower than that of Smalling the season before that where he had a great 67.5%).

Nevertheless, they are close in that regard. And it isn't that Lindelof is not making headers, he won 96 this season, compared to Smalling winning 102 on his last season here.

So, as I said yesterday, stats say that there isn't much between them. I believe that Lindelof is less aggressive, so if Smalling was less aggressive, he likely would have had a higher percentage rate but probably still on sixties, which might have been a tiny bit better than that of Lindelof but not much (Maguire for example is far more aggressive than Smalling while still keeping his win rate above 70% which isgreat, Van Dijk is even better at 76% while being as aggressive as Maguire).

So really, stats-wise when it comes to aerial duels, Smalling is at best marginally better than Lindelof (counting Smalling's last season here, and Lindelof's last two seasons, I admit that Smalling was better before), and definitely is not the monster in the air some think he is. The difference between Maguire and Smalling is far larger than that between Smalling and Lindelof, is such difference exists in the first place.
 

roonster09

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To be fair, number of them won (for 90 minutes) is important, but it also shows only half of the story. The other half is the percentage of aerial duels won. Last season when they played together, Smalling was slightly better in that aspect, having a 65% rate, with Lindelof having a 62.7% rate. This season though, Lindelof has improved though, and had a 65.7% win rate which is higher than that of Smalling from last year (but lower than that of Smalling the season before that where he had a great 67.5%).

Nevertheless, they are close in that regard. And it isn't that Lindelof is not making headers, he won 96 this season, compared to Smalling winning 102 on his last season here.

So, as I said yesterday, stats say that there isn't much between them. I believe that Lindelof is less aggressive, so if Smalling was less aggressive, he likely would have had a higher percentage rate but probably still on sixties, which might have been a tiny bit better than that of Lindelof but not much (Maguire for example is far more aggressive than Smalling while still keeping his win rate above 70% which isgreat, Van Dijk is even better at 76% while being as aggressive as Maguire).

So really, stats-wise when it comes to aerial duels, Smalling is at best marginally better than Lindelof (counting Smalling's last season here, and Lindelof's last two seasons, I admit that Smalling was better before), and definitely is not the monster in the air some think he is. The difference between Maguire and Smalling is far larger than that between Smalling and Lindelof, is such difference exists in the first place.
Smalling won around twice the number of headers last season and at better rate, how are they same? Aerial duel win % should be used along number of headers, not as isolated stat. Last season when they played together, Smalling won nearly 2x more headers and at better rate, that's shows clear difference.

Smalling and Maguire are always close to each other when it comes to headers.

Smalling vs Lindelof vs Maguire, I dont know how you came to conclusion that gap between Maguire and Smalling is bigger than Smalling and Lindelof. Last 4 seasons, Smalling has won more headers than Maguire in 3 seasons and had better win% in 3 seasons.

If we don't include Serie A and go by same leagues, Smalling has won more headers in 3/3 seasons and has better win % in 2/3 seasons.

Season​
Age​
Total Headers​
Headers won​
Win %​
2009-10​
20​
5​
2.8​
56.00%​
2010-11​
21​
5.4​
4.1​
75.93%​
2011-12​
22​
2.2​
1.6​
72.73%​
2012-13​
23​
4.2​
2.7​
64.29%​
2013-14​
24​
4.2​
2.9​
69.05%​
2014-15​
25​
5​
3.4​
68.00%​
2015-16​
26​
5.5​
3.5​
63.64%​
Season​
Age​
Total Headers​
Headers won​
Win %​
Season​
Total Headers​
Headers won​
Win %​
2016-17​
27​
4.9​
3.6​
73.47%​
2016-17​
22​
3.7​
2.2​
59.46%​
2016-17​
3.8​
2.7​
71.05%​
2017-18​
28​
5.7​
3.8​
66.67%​
2017-18​
23​
3.3​
1.5​
45.45%​
2017-18​
4.8​
3.1​
64.58%​
2018-19​
29​
6.7​
4.3​
64.18%​
2018-19​
24​
3.8​
2.4​
63.16%​
2018-19​
5.3​
4.1​
77.36%​
2019-20​
30​
4.9​
3.5​
71.43%​
2019-20​
25​
4.2​
2.8​
66.67%​
2019-20​
6.5​
4.6​
70.77%​
 

UnitedFan93

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If we can't get 20 million for him this summer, I reckon the club should just bring him back as a back up CB. It will save us having to spend money on a CB, especially when money will be tight after Sancho due to COVID.
 

marktan

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Is he going to be back with us for the Europa? Or do Roma get him automatically? Not really clued in to how contracts work considering we had to extend Henderson to Sheffield and Inter want Sanchez for Europa but have to negotiate to extend.

It doesn't look like Roma will pay the 20m asking price, their office from what I've read is 12-15m. It's a shame because he's been a good player for them, but I doubt he'll struggle to find suitors either on loan or as a signing after the season he's had.
 

Revan

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Is he going to be back with us for the Europa? Or do Roma get him automatically? Not really clued in to how contracts work considering we had to extend Henderson to Sheffield and Inter want Sanchez for Europa but have to negotiate to extend.

It doesn't look like Roma will pay the 20m asking price, their office from what I've read is 12-15m. It's a shame because he's been a good player for them, but I doubt he'll struggle to find suitors either on loan or as a signing after the season he's had.
No player who was not registered for us can play in Europa. So, it doesn't matter if we return Smalling (or we sign Sancho), they cannot play in Europa for us.

Roma can feck off if they don't want him for 20m. Just keep him as the third CB, play him in cup games and when we rest Maguire/Lindelof. Despite that they don't get injured, going only with backups made from glass like Jones or Bailly is extremely dangerous.
 
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