Chris Smalling - does he start at any other top 6 team?

[tomaldinho1]

I think a lot of people believe these days that football has dramatically changed and that all centre back have to be like prime Scholes on the ball. It seems to be the case but without any actual evidence for it other than everyone wanting to play like City. Morgan and Huth won the league a couple of seasons back, before that Cahill and Terry.

If you looked at our best results over the last few years i wold guess that Smalling has been involved in more than any other player bar De Gea. No one would have been talking about 'ball playing abilities' of our CBs during these victories. He was even right back when we beat Arsenal 8-2.

You're looking at it the wrong way, it's not as case of Smalling being average on the ball compared to the 'ball playing CBs' it's the fact he's absolutely bog standard. Cahill & Terry were both comfortably better than him on the ball (and they were far from ball playing CBs) but Morgan & Huth are a good example. Smalling would have strolled into that Leicester team because that style of ultra defensive counter attacking football would suit him very well.

It's always exaggerated how bad he is on the ball but I'd say, hand on heart, he's bottom 25% of all PL players and that does make a difference when every few passes is slightly off pace or slightly behind it's target. Obviously it's not like he physically cannot pass the ball, he's a professional football player, but next game just watch how reliant he is on feeding ball onto his right foot and how every few passes, particularly out left to Shaw, will be behind where Shaw is by a few metres.

 

[Ekeke]

You're looking at it the wrong way, it's not as case of Smalling being average on the ball compared to the 'ball playing CBs' it's the fact he's absolutely bog standard. Cahill & Terry were both comfortably better than him on the ball (and they were far from ball playing CBs) but Morgan & Huth are a good example. Smalling would have strolled into that Leicester team because that style of ultra defensive counter attacking football would suit him very well.

It's always exaggerated how bad he is on the ball but I'd say, hand on heart, he's bottom 25% of all PL players and that does make a difference when every few passes is slightly off pace or slightly behind it's target. Obviously it's not like he physically cannot pass the ball, he's a professional football player, but next game just watch how reliant he is on feeding ball onto his right foot and how every few passes, particularly out left to Shaw, will be behind where Shaw is by a few metres.

Leicester ultra defensive?

They were just a normal counter attacking team that did it very well. Just like we are now.

 

[Cabin Clown]

You're looking at it the wrong way, it's not as case of Smalling being average on the ball compared to the 'ball playing CBs' it's the fact he's absolutely bog standard. Cahill & Terry were both comfortably better than him on the ball (and they were far from ball playing CBs) but Morgan & Huth are a good example. Smalling would have strolled into that Leicester team because that style of ultra defensive counter attacking football would suit him very well.

It's always exaggerated how bad he is on the ball but I'd say, hand on heart, he's bottom 25% of all PL players and that does make a difference when every few passes is slightly off pace or slightly behind it's target. Obviously it's not like he physically cannot pass the ball, he's a professional football player, but next game just watch how reliant he is on feeding ball onto his right foot and how every few passes, particularly out left to Shaw, will be behind where Shaw is by a few metres.

What games are you watching? I've watched Smalling for years and never seen him do this more than any of our other players.

Honestly feel like we see two different people the way some of you describe him.

 

[Leftback99]

You're looking at it the wrong way, it's not as case of Smalling being average on the ball compared to the 'ball playing CBs' it's the fact he's absolutely bog standard. Cahill & Terry were both comfortably better than him on the ball (and they were far from ball playing CBs) but Morgan & Huth are a good example. Smalling would have strolled into that Leicester team because that style of ultra defensive counter attacking football would suit him very well.

It's always exaggerated how bad he is on the ball but I'd say, hand on heart, he's bottom 25% of all PL players and that does make a difference when every few passes is slightly off pace or slightly behind it's target. Obviously it's not like he physically cannot pass the ball, he's a professional football player, but next game just watch how reliant he is on feeding ball onto his right foot and how every few passes, particularly out left to Shaw, will be behind where Shaw is by a few metres.

Does it make a difference though? England had these supposed 'ball players' at CB in the world Cup but what did that team rely on? Set pieces. In general play we could barely create a thing despite having these maestros at the back.

I'd argue Smalling qualities in actually defending and being a goal threat outweigh that some of his passing is slightly slower and less adventurous.

 

[Ekeke]

Does it make a difference though? England had these supposed 'ball players' at CB in the world Cup but what did that team rely on? Set pieces. In general play we could barely create a thing despite having these maestros at the back.

I'd argue Smalling qualities in actually defending and being a goal threat outweigh that some of his passing is slightly slower and less adventurous.

Plus the fact when a decent team actually looked to press those players, they all turned into Bailly and sliced clearances and looked more nervous than I've ever seen from Smalling. Its alright doing it against teams you were obviously already going to beat anyway, but they absolutely couldnt be "calm and composed on the ball playing it out from the back" against the decent teams we finally played

 

[tomaldinho1]

Leicester ultra defensive?

They were just a normal counter attacking team that did it very well. Just like we are now.

They were v defensive and set up v deep, which created the space for their reliance on counter attack. You can google it and you'll see loads of articles on Ranieri's setup and they all agree that he built that success on being defensive, just look at his preferred back four - all of them are defensive players and they kept their fullbacks deep to allow for space particularly for Mahrez. If you think we play the same way under Ole, I don't think there's much more I can say because it's very different.

What games are you watching? I've watched Smalling for years and never seen him do this more than any of our other players.

Honestly feel like we see two different people the way some of you describe him.

I'm just saying he's at the bottom end of the technical tree - I wouldn't say that's harsh as it's a common criticism levelled at him. Doesn't mean I don't like him or rate him but I do think he's suspect when it comes to consistency with passing and his touch. Luckily he's a CB so normally it doesn't have bad consequences unless someone is pressing him.

Does it make a difference though? England had these supposed 'ball players' at CB in the world Cup but what did that team rely on? Set pieces. In general play we could barely create a thing despite having these maestros at the back.

I'd argue Smalling qualities in actually defending and being a goal threat outweigh that some of his passing is slightly slower and less adventurous.

Don't get me started on the England world cup 'playing out from the back' BS pedalled by Southgate. In this instance I actually think Smalling should have played given we were so suspect defensively and his weaknesses wouldn't really have mattered because we had such an easy run and were reliant on set pieces, which is a bonus with his aerial ability.

 

[Ekeke]

They were v defensive and set up v deep, which created the space for their reliance on counter attack. You can google it and you'll see loads of articles on Ranieri's setup and they all agree that he built that success on being defensive, just look at his preferred back four - all of them are defensive players and they kept their fullbacks deep to allow for space particularly for Mahrez. If you think we play the same way under Ole, I don't think there's much more I can say because it's very different.



I'm just saying he's at the bottom end of the technical tree - I wouldn't say that's harsh as it's a common criticism levelled at him. Doesn't mean I don't like him or rate him but I do think he's suspect when it comes to consistency with passing and his touch. Luckily he's a CB so normally it doesn't have bad consequences unless someone is pressing him.



Don't get me started on the England world cup 'playing out from the back' BS pedalled by Southgate. In this instance I actually think Smalling should have played given we were so suspect defensively and his weaknesses wouldn't really have mattered because we had such an easy run and were reliant on set pieces, which is a bonus with his aerial ability.

We do the exact same thing. Its called being a counter attacking team. You let the opponents have most of the ball and then you spring forward on the counter attack when you pinch the ball and their players are out of position.

 

[Isotope]

Some have short memory of how Rio was playing. He's supposedly a "ball playing" CB, but his ball distribution was actually not much a great deal on getting the United of old on controlling the match. It was the midfield and attack, and to certain extend, the fullbacks had the role of controlling the match.

THen when you see those CB that supposedly an upgrade to Smalling, it will cost at least VVD money, or you're paying outrageous sallary (in the case of Alderweird). It obviously speaks volume of how good Smalling actually is.

 

[RG 11]

He's a good CB but too often tries to rough up the attacker to compensate for his poor positioning. Might get interesting next season with VAR.

He would be a backup option at all the top 6 bar Arsenal which is his level imo. He should be a squad players for us as well.

 

[11101]

We do the exact same thing. Its called being a counter attacking team. You let the opponents have most of the ball and then you spring forward on the counter attack when you pinch the ball and their players are out of position.

We really don't, i don't know how you can actually watch Leicester and us and think we do the same thing. We both counter attack and that's where the similarity ends. We try to press high up the pitch and recover the ball early, and start the counter attack from advanced positions. Leicester sat deep and sprung on the counter with long balls down the channels. It's completely different.

 

[tomaldinho1]

We do the exact same thing. Its called being a counter attacking team. You let the opponents have most of the ball and then you spring forward on the counter attack when you pinch the ball and their players are out of position.

Honestly, I was going to write something explaining all the differences but this should help you visualise. Super defensive, deep limited CBs, tucked in full backs, bank of four midfield - nothing like what we currently do with Ole

 

[Ekeke]

Honestly, I was going to write something explaining all the differences but this should help you visualise. Super defensive, deep limited CBs, tucked in full backs, bank of four midfield - nothing like what we currently do with Ole

This is what we do in our matches against the better teams. Shaw is tucked in which helps the CBs defend (and leads to some people complaining that he lets too many crosses in) with a "right winger" becoming an extra CM.

Leicester's last game of the premier league season a 1-1 draw with Chelsea

3 players springing the counter attack threat. The midfield the most packed area.


United vs Chelsea average positions from 2-0 win a few weeks ago

3 players springing the counter attack threat. Midfield the most packed area.

Leicester's average positions are actually further forward, so I guess we're the ultra defensive ones. The main difference would be that Leicester used more width than we are with our diamond.

But once again, welcome to counter attack football. You sit off, invite the other team to have most of the ball and come attack you and then you spring your counter attack when their players are out of position and try to score a goal with moments of quality rather than trying to have most of the ball and breaking teams down while they are organized.

 

[tony54]

Smalling seems to be getting better in each season and is not being a ball player a major drawback! I dont think so, as long as those around him are. He has good speed, strength and positional skill and can grab a goal now and again . I do critisize his grabbing though .

 

[RedPed]

If any of the top 6 came in for him, which I very much doubt they would, how much would they be prepared to pay for him? I doubt whether he would go for more than £25...£30m tops.

I could see clubs like Everton, West Ham or Newcastle coming in for him and that's it. Hopefully if rumours are true, we will be in for Koulibaly for a decent upgrade to partner Lindelof next season.

 

[Dec9003]

He'd likely start for Chelsea (once they do their annual manager sacking and go for someone less possession oriented) and he'd do a skip and a dance into arsenals defence.
He'd maybe start for Tottenham considering their centre backs get injuries and they play a back three sometimes.
As for Liverpool and city? Probably not city but he's better than some of the Liverpool centre backs who get minutes for them.
A few years back I thought Smalling was overrated; but I'd argue now it's gone the other away and he's underrated if anything.

 

[tomaldinho1]

This is what we do in our matches against the better teams. Shaw is tucked in which helps the CBs defend (and leads to some people complaining that he lets too many crosses in) with a "right winger" becoming an extra CM.

Leicester's last game of the premier league season a 1-1 draw with Chelsea

3 players springing the counter attack threat. The midfield the most packed area.


United vs Chelsea average positions from 2-0 win a few weeks ago

3 players springing the counter attack threat. Midfield the most packed area.

Leicester's average positions are actually further forward, so I guess we're the ultra defensive ones. The main difference would be that Leicester used more width than we are with our diamond.

But once again, welcome to counter attack football. You sit off, invite the other team to have most of the ball and come attack you and then you spring your counter attack when their players are out of position and try to score a goal with moments of quality rather than trying to have most of the ball and breaking teams down while they are organized.

Just to clarify you're using the average position of Leicester's last game of the season, when they had already won the league and were playing 10th place Chelsea to try and prove your point?

This is actually their average position across games vs Villa, Stoke, Liverpool & City. Home or away they played the same way, condensed, defensive and deep.

 

[ghagua]

All I care about is his ability to defend which he does a great job of. I think he is one of the best defenders in the league and would have been even better if he had a dominant personality next to him like a Rio or Vidic.

 

[Ekeke]

Just to clarify you're using the average position of Leicester's last game of the season, when they had already won the league and were playing 10th place Chelsea to try and prove your point?

This is actually their average position across games vs Villa, Stoke, Liverpool & City. Home or away they played the same way, condensed, defensive and deep.

First 1 is 2, 2nd is 4, 3rd is 3 and 4th is 3 players spearheading the counter attack. Once again, we have 3 in our big matches. So the same amount of players getting forward and participating in our counter attacks which is our main tactic in those games.

Against weaker opposition we tend to commit 4 forward, more like the 2nd picture. But against the top teams its similar to those pictures too, other than the our rightback getting further forward.

 

[Leftback99]

If any of the top 6 came in for him, which I very much doubt they would, how much would they be prepared to pay for him? I doubt whether he would go for more than £25...£30m tops.

I could see clubs like Everton, West Ham or Newcastle coming in for him and that's it. Hopefully if rumours are true, we will be in for Koulibaly for a decent upgrade to partner Lindelof next season.

If Smalling is worth £25m and Koulibaly £90m+ who are all the defenders available between £30m-£90m who are also an upgrade? And what does it say for how much Rojo, Bailly and Jones are worth.

 

[Ekeke]

If Smalling is worth £25m and Koulibaly £90m+ who are all the defenders available between £30m-£90m who are also an upgrade? And what does it say for how much Rojo, Bailly and Jones are worth.

Great question

 

[RedPed]

If Smalling is worth £25m and Koulibaly £90m+ who are all the defenders available between £30m-£90m who are also an upgrade? And what does it say for how much Rojo, Bailly and Jones are worth.

How much do you think any PL team would pay for him?? Koulibaly would be a massive upgrade. Smalling would be a decent backup at best. I would personally persevere with Bailly too. We can't even shift Darmian for £10m.

 

[Ekeke]

How much do you think any PL team would pay for him?? Koulibaly would be a massive upgrade. Smalling would be a decent backup at best. I would personally persevere with Bailly too. We can't even shift Darmian for £10m.

Darmian isnt starting for us every week

 

[El Jefe]

If Smalling is worth £25m and Koulibaly £90m+ who are all the defenders available between £30m-£90m who are also an upgrade? And what does it say for how much Rojo, Bailly and Jones are worth.

The correlation between worth and ability is not always black and white. There are variables such as contract length, age, culture of the selling club and competition for the player.

Koulibaly isn't worth £90m but De Laurentis is Serie A's Levy so you're always looking at a premium with his players. Our most valuable defender in that list is Bailly, simply because he's the youngest not because he's the best. He's probably also on the lowest wage which also plays a big factor.

 

[tomaldinho1]

First 1 is 2, 2nd is 4, 3rd is 3 and 4th is 3 players spearheading the counter attack. Once again, we have 3 in our big matches. So the same amount of players getting forward and participating in our counter attacks which is our main tactic in those games.

Against weaker opposition we tend to commit 4 forward, more like the 2nd picture. But against the top teams its similar to those pictures too, other than the our rightback getting further forward.

You're changing your point now - originally you were saying Leicester weren't super defensive but yet now you're talking about how many players are 'getting forward' on the position maps.

Just admit, Leicester sat very deep and played on the counter which is nothing like what we do under Ole. Yes, we use counter attacking but that's where the similarity ends (there will be the odd game like Arsenal away where we decide to sit deep but that's not representative of an entire season). I've provided you with multiple sources and you've either ignored them or tried to spin them to your way of thinking. At the end of the day, if you see football as simplistically as 'do they counter attack Yes or No' then I'll leave it there as this is Smalling thread and I can't help you on this one.

 

[Ekeke]

You're changing your point now - originally you were saying Leicester weren't super defensive but yet now you're talking about how many players are 'getting forward' on the position maps.

Just admit, Leicester sat very deep and played on the counter which is nothing like what we do under Ole. Yes, we use counter attacking but that's where the similarity ends (there will be the odd game like Arsenal away where we decide to sit deep but that's not representative of an entire season). I've provided you with multiple sources and you've either ignored them or tried to spin them to your way of thinking. At the end of the day, if you see football as simplistically as 'do they counter attack Yes or No' then I'll leave it there as this is Smalling thread and I can't help you on this one.

No, I'm saying we commit the same amount of players forward in our counter attacks in the big match tactics. So they arent super defensive unless we are. We do pretty much the same thing they did.

We were super defensive under Mourinho though because we didnt commit as many players forward.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Not to be rude, but who cares? Who would have had Wijnaldum, Milner, Robertson, Arnold, etc starting for their team a couple seasons ago? Not many. Certainly no one in the top 6 anyway! Yet these players played a big part in Liverpool getting to the CL final last season and could possibly win the league title this season (God forbid).

It's all about styles and whether that players suits the team and provides the team with balance.

Firmino probably doesn't start for any other top 6 team, but it doesn't mean he's a good player.

 

[RedPed]

Darmian isnt starting for us every week

What difference does that make? He's a PL top 6 player playing for United. He should be worth a lot of money or a decent amount at least. I guarantee you that someone like Isco could be on Madrid's bench for a whole season and he would still go for a shitload of money. I doubt whether any of City's B team would go for just £10m?

It's a sad indictment on the state of the United squad. Smalling is one of the better of a bad bunch. I wouldn't even say he's the best. Doesn't make him a world beater or necessarily even United quality, just because he's a starter, any more so than Young for example.

And like I said, I still stand by the assumption that none of the top 6 sides would come in for Smalling and if they did, he would be backup or rotated....and they certainly wouldn't pay him £120K or whatever he's on now.

 

[Ekeke]

What difference does that make? He's a PL top 6 player playing for United. He should be worth a lot of money or a decent amount at least. I guarantee you that someone like Isco could be on Madrid's bench for a whole season and he would still go for a shitload of money. I doubt whether any of City's B team would go for just £10m?

It's a sad indictment on the state of the United squad. Smalling is one of the better of a bad bunch. I wouldn't even say he's the best. Doesn't make him a world beater or necessarily even United quality, just because he's a starter, any more so than Young for example.

And like I said, I still stand by the assumption that none of the top 6 sides would come in for Smalling and if they did, he would be backup or rotated....and they certainly wouldn't pay him £120K or whatever he's on now.

It makes a big difference. Darmian cant get into the team unless we're desperate (rightly or wrongly) and Smalling is our first CB on the teamsheet.

If you're a club trying to buy Darmian and United give you a price that you think is too high, you have a good argument that he's surplus to requirements and doesn't play so why should he have a high value?

Meanwhile if you're trying to buy the best defender at the team that finished 2nd in the premier league last season, who is starting every week and a strong contender to be the new captain next season, then you aren't going to let him go for anywhere near the same amount as a player we only use when theres nobody else available.

 

[RedPed]

It makes a big difference. Darmian cant get into the team unless we're desperate (rightly or wrongly) and Smalling is our first CB on the teamsheet.

If you're a club trying to buy Darmian and United give you a price that you think is too high, you have a good argument that he's surplus to requirements and doesn't play so why should he have a high value?

Meanwhile if you're trying to buy the best defender at the team that finished 2nd in the premier league last season, who is starting every week and a strong contender to be the new captain next season, then you aren't going to let him go for anywhere near the same amount as a player we only use when theres nobody else available.

Young starts every (or most)weeks, finished 2nd in the league last season and captains United this season. I'll just leave that there.

Ad if you really think that Smalling is going to be captain next season, you're fecking deluded.

So I'll ask you. How much would a top 6 side pay for Smalling?

 

[Ekeke]

Young starts every (or most )weeks, finished 2nd in the league last season and captains United this season. I'll just leave that there.

Ad if you really think that Smalling is going to be captain next season, you're fecking deluded.

So I'll ask you. How much would a top 6 side pay for Smalling?

Yes Young does for now. But he's 33 and a converted winger who is probably gone for free.

Smalling isnt 30 yet. Our best defender, has already captained us, just got a new contract and so on.

You sound really mad about that.

 

[Leftback99]

How much do you think any PL team would pay for him?? Koulibaly would be a massive upgrade. Smalling would be a decent backup at best. I would personally persevere with Bailly too. We can't even shift Darmian for £10m.

I've no idea but if I had say £50m I can't name a CB in the PL that I think would be a definite upgrade either. I certainly wouldnt pay that for Bailly.

As for Darmian, I was told on here he was a massive upgrade on Valencia and a brilliant attacking full back. I had my doubts and waited to see myself how he did in the PL before making such claims. Same would apply to Koulibaly.

 

[Bwuk]

It’s mental to me how over rated Smalling is on this forum. Nowhere else online rates him, and no one I know in real life rates him.

 

[ghagua]

Some have short memory of how Rio was playing. He's supposedly a "ball playing" CB, but his ball distribution was actually not much a great deal on getting the United of old on controlling the match. It was the midfield and attack, and to certain extend, the fullbacks had the role of controlling the match.

THen when you see those CB that supposedly an upgrade to Smalling, it will cost at least VVD money, or you're paying outrageous sallary (in the case of Alderweird). It obviously speaks volume of how good Smalling actually is.

This is true, all Rio did was win the ball and play it to a midfielder. Vidic would sometimes be adventurous and play a long ball forward, but their primary job was to defend.

 

[Mcking]

It’s mental to me how over rated Smalling is on this forum. Nowhere else online rates him, and no one I know in real life rates him.

Just actual Man Utd fans recognizing a quality Man Utd defender that they watch every week.

 

[VP89]

Just actual Man Utd fans recognizing a quality Man Utd defender that they watch every week.

And Sir Alex, Jose Mourinho, Louis Van Gaal & Ole.

However, no one online. And that's what matters.

 

[11101]

And Sir Alex, Jose Mourinho, Louis Van Gaal & Ole.

However, no one online. And that's what matters.

You mean all the managers who tried to play others ahead of him, but ended up resorting back to him because the others got injured or had shockers?

Not one of those managers played him as first choice until they had to.

 

[RedPed]

Yes Young does for now. But he's 33 and a converted winger who is probably gone for free.

Smalling isnt 30 yet. Our best defender, has already captained us, just got a new contract and so on.

You sound really mad about that.

Young's extended for another year. I'm not mad about Smalling, couldn't really give a feck about him. I know that come next season, if we strengthen at the back as expected, he won't be starting every game. That's good enough for me. Be interesting to see whether he gets found out with the VAR.

 

[Mcking]

You mean all the managers who tried to play others ahead of him, but ended up resorting back to him because the others got injured or had shockers?

Not one of those managers played him as first choice until they had to.

Except Ole I guess? Man literally walked into the XI.

 

[Mcking]

Young's extended for another year. I'm not mad about Smalling, couldn't really give a feck about him. I know that come next season, if we strengthen at the back as expected, he won't be starting every game. That's good enough for me. Be interesting to see whether he gets found out with the VAR.

We say the same thing every March, every year.

 

[VP89]

You mean all the managers who tried to play others ahead of him, but ended up resorting back to him because the others got injured or had shockers?

Not one of those managers played him as first choice until they had to.

Ole and LVG didn't really do that. Quite sure Mourinho rated him highly and played him consistently for large periods too.

Smalling himself has had some injury problems. He's been first choice with someone else as far as I can remember (i.e. with Jones or Baily or Lindelof now). And for Ole who right now appears to be the best fit for us he's the starter with Lindelof ahead of the rest.