Christmas Tree Draft - R1 - GSTQ vs P-Nut

[Šjor Bepo]

Again why? Why can 2 absolute greats of their time not work together to elevate each others game? Are we really going to say we know better than Pep how tiki taka works? In fact it may be a bit off to call it tiki taka as it may have been that the style changed slightly, and stopped it going down the same path of endless sideways passing that Spain got stuck in.

It's a shame there's been so many instances of Pep wanting to try it, but not getting the player, same can be said of wanting Jorginho on top of Silva and De Bruyne in midfield. Maybe one day he'll get to try it and we'll at least have an inkling on whether it works.

because this is a team game, its not about having all the best players in every position. As Cruyff said, that way you dont end up with 1 strong XI but XI strong 1's.
Both Xavi and Pirlo are absolute masters of the most difficult skill in football - controlling the tempo of the game. That job can only be done by one player. How you get the best out of both Xavi and Pirlo is giving them a platform to shine, each had a different one and i have no problems in believing or thinking they would shine in different systems but it has to be right foundations. Can you play them together and can it work? Maybe but im 1000% sure at least one of them wouldnt be at his best(and would probably be far from it) or even both.
We know less then the biggest turd managers out there but just because a great player or a great coach said something or wanted something to do, it doesnt mean thats correct. Shall we not criticise Moyes for his time at United because he knows more about the game then all of us together?

As for Jorginho, all 3 players are different and dont really step on each other toes so it could work but as we can see with a Lidl version of Jorginho in Rodri(not that Jorginho is something speciall ) it doesnt work and probably the biggest reason why City dropped massively in form and you can now say in quality is because they failed to replace Fernandinho.

 

[Ecstatic]

Again why? Why can 2 absolute greats of their time not work together to elevate each others game? Are we really going to say we know better than Pep how tiki taka works? In fact it may be a bit off to call it tiki taka as it may have been that the style changed slightly, and stopped it going down the same path of endless sideways passing that Spain got stuck in.

It's a shame there's been so many instances of Pep wanting to try it, but not getting the player, same can be said of wanting Jorginho on top of Silva and De Bruyne in midfield. Maybe one day he'll get to try it and we'll at least have an inkling on whether it works.

I am with you on this. It would work very well at 95%

Then, the quality of the teammates/opposition also matters.

If if they play against a team like France 2000 (Deschamps + Prime Vieira + Prime Zidane), they would suffer badly

 

[P-Nut]

because this is a team game, its not about having all the best players in every position. As Cruyff said, that way you dont end up with 1 strong XI but XI strong 1's.
Both Xavi and Pirlo are absolute masters of the most difficult skill in football - controlling the tempo of the game. That job can only be done by one player. How you get the best out of both Xavi and Pirlo is giving them a platform to shine, each had a different one and i have no problems in believing or thinking they would shine in different systems but it has to be right foundations. Can you play them together and can it work? Maybe but im 1000% sure at least one of them wouldnt be at his best(and would probably be far from it) or even both.
We know less then the biggest turd managers out there but just because a great player or a great coach said something or wanted something to do, it doesnt mean thats correct. Shall we not criticise Moyes for his time at United because he knows more about the game then all of us together?

As for Jorginho, all 3 players are different and dont really step on each other toes so it could work but as we can see with a Lidl version of Jorginho in Rodri(not that Jorginho is something speciall ) it doesnt work and probably the biggest reason why City dropped massively in form and you can now say in quality is because they failed to replace Fernandinho.

You use something Cruyff said and then say we can't take what great managers or players say

I'm not saying they'd all be at 100% I'm saying they have the potential to be better than with Busquets at the base, as Pirlo can do everything Busquets can (I'd personally rate him better defensively, although that's completely subjective as they were strange in the defensive phases)

We see plenty of great sides with players not playing at their 100% best, but making the team better on a whole than other players could, normally due to adding something different to the side that others couldn't.

In one of our greatest sides you've got Rooney and Tevez both sacrificing parts of their game for the greater good. Rooney actually adapted his game that well that it could be considered his peak, despite him obviously wanting to be the focal point.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

You use something Cruyff said and then say we can't take what great managers or players say

I'm not saying they'd all be at 100% I'm saying they have the potential to be better than with Busquets at the base, as Pirlo can do everything Busquets can (I'd personally rate him better defensively, although that's completely subjective as they were strange in the defensive phases)

We see plenty of great sides with players not playing at their 100% best, but making the team better on a whole than other players could, normally due to adding something different to the side that others couldn't.

In one of our greatest sides you've got Rooney and Tevez both sacrificing parts of their game for the greater good. Rooney actually adapted his game that well that it could be considered his peak, despite him obviously wanting to be the focal point.

jesus wept, yeah i said everything managers and players say is bullshit.

fair enough, everybody is entitled to an opinion i just strongly disagree on that one

pointless argument as you can find great teams on both sides of the coin, superstars adapting, superstars clashing etc.

i have no idea what you are arguing, i agree with that part. Only thing i dont agree is that you can have 2 players that control the game in one team, sure one can sacrifice and play at much lower level but whats the point as he wont be better then a player who is perfect for that role in the first place.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

tbh its a tiring and pointless disscussion, lets just agree to disagree

 

[P-Nut]

jesus wept, yeah i said everything managers and players say is bullshit.

fair enough, everybody is entitled to an opinion i just strongly disagree on that one

pointless argument as you can find great teams on both sides of the coin, superstars adapting, superstars clashing etc.

i have no idea what you are arguing, i agree with that part. Only thing i dont agree is that you can have 2 players that control the game in one team, sure one can sacrifice and play at much lower level but whats the point as he wont be better then a player who is perfect for that role in the first place.

I was actually joking with the not everything has to be argumentative it was more just a discussion on how things are judged.

You brought up Pirlo and Busquets as an example of something that you believed wouldn't work, and it seemed like a good example of one such scenario I believe would work.

Agree to disagree at this point though as I can see its frustrating you.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Again why? Why can 2 absolute greats of their time not work together to elevate each others game? Are we really going to say we know better than Pep how tiki taka works? In fact it may be a bit off to call it tiki taka as it may have been that the style changed slightly, and stopped it going down the same path of endless sideways passing that Spain got stuck in.

It's a shame there's been so many instances of Pep wanting to try it, but not getting the player, same can be said of wanting Jorginho on top of Silva and De Bruyne in midfield. Maybe one day he'll get to try it and we'll at least have an inkling on whether it works.

Galacticos has shown that just adding star names without balance in team would only yield sub-par results.

If you're looking at tiki taka, it simply won't utilize Pirlo's skills fully.

 

[Physiocrat]

I think @P-Nut 's point is that Pirlo can do everything Busquets can do as well as having amazing long passing. Yes it is true, either Xavi or Pirlo can control the game so you wouldn't get the best out of both of them but taken as a midfield three they offer more than Xaviesta and Busquets.

I think the big issue is whether Pirlo or Xavi would be happy to play second fiddle

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I don't think Pirlo can do everything Busquets can do off the ball. No where near as well.

That midfield will win 10-2 against Real Betis and lose 2-10 against Real Madrid

 

[Šjor Bepo]

its actually insane how underrated Busquets is, i know people dislike him but dear me....

 

[P-Nut]

I think @P-Nut 's point is that Pirlo can do everything Busquets can do as well as having amazing long passing. Yes it is true, either Xavi or Pirlo can control the game so you wouldn't get the best out of both of them but taken as a midfield three they offer more than Xaviesta and Busquets.

I think the big issue is whether Pirlo or Xavi would be happy to play second fiddle

Yeah it's basically this. I'm not advocating putting 11 absolute superstars together, but I disagree with the notion that just because there is 2 dominant play makers in a midfield it wouldn't work.

I more take into account what the players bring to the table, their attributes, personalities and the whole package rather than automatically dismissing it as 2 ball dominant players can't play together.

I actually think Xavi is one of the best play makers that you could play with another, due to the performances with Busquets and Iniesta, whilst having Messi who constantly wanted the ball as well. Sure Xavi was orchestrator and chief, but it wasn't like he didn't share the ball around with a lot of other players that loved having the ball at feet.

 

[P-Nut]

its actually insane how underrated Busquets is, i know people dislike him but dear me....

I actually rate Busquets quite highly, I think playing in that Barce side as another cog in the machine means he gets under rated, but I see Pirlo as a level above and whilst it's not set in stone, I also don't see it as too controversial.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I actually rate Busquets quite highly, I think playing in that Barce side as another cog in the machine means he gets under rated, but I see Pirlo as a level above and whilst it's not set in stone, I also don't see it as too controversial.

have zero problems with people rating Pirlo as the better one, for me personally they are incomparable given how different they are so the apt comparison for Pirlo is Xavi but not important.....what bothers me is comments like physio one where Pirlo can do everything Bus can and more, the feck he can.

 

[Physiocrat]

have zero problems with people rating Pirlo as the better one, for me personally they are incomparable given how different they are so the apt comparison for Pirlo is Xavi but not important.....what bothers me is comments like physio one where Pirlo can do everything Bus can and more, the feck he can.

I was trying to summarise P-Nut's position more than anything. Defensively I do think that Busquets > Pirlo. If I said otherwise, I mispoke.

Also you could claim Busquets's one touch is better than Pirlo.

 

[Raees]

I actually rate Busquets quite highly, I think playing in that Barce side as another cog in the machine means he gets under rated, but I see Pirlo as a level above and whilst it's not set in stone, I also don't see it as too controversial.

I think if we are just doing player for player and building a side from scratch where those two are going to be the best players in their respective sides - Pirlo is better as he is the more talented player IMO and can control a game.

Pound for pound in respect of their position and all time context - much more nuanced discussion to be had. Could argue Busquets higher in all time CDM ranks vs Pirlo in the CM rankings but then again as a DLP.. not many come close to the Italian.