They can’t bury this though, it’s uproar whatever the outcome. I’m sure the PL does have good lawyers but City are effectively backed by a state, with unlimited resources, so I know who I’d want on my side.
City and Financial Doping | Charged by PL with 130 FFP breaches | Hearing concluded | Awaiting outcome
- Thread starter VanGaalEra
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They can’t bury this though, it’s uproar whatever the outcome. I’m sure the PL does have good lawyers but City are effectively backed by a state, with unlimited resources, so I know who I’d want on my side.
And since that time, even United supporters are now calling City a big club and them having good recruitment. Goes to show.
Again, that’s not how we judge sporting competition, success and institutions. If you operate outside of the established and applicable rules to all - you’re not well run.
You keep giving me examples of criminal organisations that inherently operate outside of the law when that’s has nothing to do with organisations that have to operate within set rules. Why do you think the likes of Lance Armstrong or Juventus were stripped of their titles?
Evidently it was, as you used “organised crime” to mean/an example of something that operates outside of rules and is well-run - verbatim; “hence organised crime”. I felt compelled to express that 1. What you’re talking about isn’t applicable here, and 2. Even contextually “organised crime” isn’t synonymous with “well-run”
No. The claim was that City is well-run, not that City is a successful criminal/rule breaching institution. There’s visible space between those claims. The distinction is important.
My conclusion isn’t that because we’re having a discussion it proves that I’m correct. My conclusion is that a well run football club doesn’t end up with over +130 charges and impending verdict relating to “cheating”. This should be easy to reconcile.
I can see that the City lawyers have been very good at delaying this for as long as they have done so far, afterall as far as I'm aware about a quarter of the charges are for failing to cooperate.
So you can see their lawyers dragging their heels at every chance, but obviously this is because they know they are as guilty as sin, otherwise they'd just provide all their evidence and get this case over and done with as quickly as possible.
I have no doubt the PL lawyers are sat on a massive amount evidence that proves City's guilt, so quite how City's lawyers prove otherwise and get City off a massive punishment is surely going to be near impossible, no matter how good and expensive they are.
Nick Harris continues to do good work on this - including having one of City’s biggest propaganda accounts privately conceding that they most likely cheated (aside from the other stuff he’s disclosed over the years)
It’s seems logic isn’t your strong point. Of course I agree that that sporting competitions are judged according to their rules, no one is arguing otherwise. Why do you keep defining things nobody is disputing?
Lance Armstrong was stripped of his titles because he was proven to have cheated by USADA. In fact, they described his team as “the most sophisticated, professionalised and successful doping programme that sport has ever seen”.
It’s funny that an anti-doping agency has no problem acknowledging that a sports team can be efficient and effective while simultaneously breaking the rules they’ve been tasked with enforcing.
You’re misquoting me (I suspect deliberately). I clarified to say that my point wasn’t that all organised crime is well run, but that something operating outside of the rules does not preclude it from being well run and used organised crime as an example. And then gave a second example of a well-run terrorist cell which you also ignored (also likely deliberately).
I’ll make it easier for you: do you believe it’s possible that an organisation that operates outside a legitimate set of rules can be efficient, effective and well structured?
Can we all just agree that City are really really good at cheating. The best cheaters.
Sure thing
Remember this. It's just coincidence of course.
Why Girona? Manchester City’s deal with Pep Guardiola’s brother raises questions
Of all the football deals in all the world, what attracted Manchester City’s Abu Dhabi owner and executives to go into business with their manager Pep Guardiola’s brother and agent?
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...nchester-city-pep-guardiola-brother-questions
Why Girona? Manchester City’s deal with Pep Guardiola’s brother raises questions
Of all the football deals in all the world, what attracted Manchester City’s Abu Dhabi owner and executives to go into business with their manager Pep Guardiola’s brother and agent?
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...nchester-city-pep-guardiola-brother-questions
Except we all know what they are doing. It‘s beyond farcical that they have not been punished yet.
Have I insulted, name called or replied to you in similar fashion? Odd. Serves as reference and makes it easier to ignore you though. Still bizarre.
Because you keep talking about orgs/groups that inherently operate outside of rules as if it’s contextually the same as the conversation being had?! By definition you’re not a well-run football club if you operate outside of the parameters you have to operate within
??? Have I not acknowledged that City is/has been successful? I could have sworn I’ve affirmed it multiple times
Misquoting? It was a direct/verbatim quote. You elaborating afterwards doesn’t change that that was what compelled me to express point 1. And 2. in that paragraph. What you’ve just quoted is me walking you through the reasoning as to why I posted what I posted since you said you didn’t need the definition. I mean, if you hadn’t used it in the manner you did, I wouldn’t have replied like I did.
Irrelevant to a discussion pertaining a well-run football club.
The claim was that City is well-run, not that City is a successful criminal/rule breaching institution. There’s visible space between those claims. The distinction is important. Well run football club doesn’t end up with over +130 charges and impending verdict relating to “cheating”. This should be easy to reconcile.
I suspect his point may be as simple as that if you are a well structured and well organized crime outfit, you simply don’t get caught to the degree that you are charged with 130 charges (and get out of a similar spat with UEFA by twisting the CAS vote).
There is a point that given hiw much shit it seems possible to get away with in professional football, a better organized mafia wouldn’t have been outed even to this degree, in our day and age. It’s not the 70’s anymore (cue Morricone score).
Yep, on reflection, that’s fair. I apologise and take that back.
As for the rest, I feel you’re applying a positive value judgement to the term “well-run” which prevents you from applying that to City. Whereas the most common definition is about efficiency, structure and operational excellence - all terms which are neutral and clearly describe City.
But we can agree to disagree.
I’m simply of the belief that for a football club to be classed as a “well-run” football club they have operate to operate within the rules. The same expectation doesn’t exist for orgs/groups that inherently operate outside of rules/laws.
I also don’t have “well-run football club” and “successful” as synonymous. You can be successful in spite of not being “well-run”, and you can be “well-run” without being “successful” (relative).
Why is this thread still going?
City won.
They can spend whatever they like, football as a whole is going to get worse, hydration breaks and halftime shows will be the norm, their propoganda is so intense that we have people here saying "their planning was great", like it's an excuse for being the biggest cheats in footballing history.
They've just signed two players for like a billion or whatever, spare change for states that murder people and slice them up into pieces.
They're pig scum, but they've won. There will be no punishment.
City won.
They can spend whatever they like, football as a whole is going to get worse, hydration breaks and halftime shows will be the norm, their propoganda is so intense that we have people here saying "their planning was great", like it's an excuse for being the biggest cheats in footballing history.
They've just signed two players for like a billion or whatever, spare change for states that murder people and slice them up into pieces.
They're pig scum, but they've won. There will be no punishment.
I know these kind of posts are just some kind of coping mechanism, but if anyone could be bothered to do an analysis of this thread then I'd bet around a quarter of the posts have this general theme. It's hardly adding anything revelatory.
City will get punished, because without doubt they've broken at least some of the rules for which they've been charged. It may yet take years and may never be the sort of punishment that they deserve nor will serve as a deterrent for anyone tempted to repeat their cheating tactics, nobody knows at this stage. But there is no way they will get away with it completely.
Ah, in that case I see your point was different than what I assumed. It seems you use it differently than the common parlance as it seems to me, where ‘a well-run criminal scam’, or ‘a well run doping program’ are by no means considered oxymorons.
We at least can agree that City is an evil-run football hustling operation, I hope.
I wish other clubs had the guts to do it
‘Doping programme’…they stated that they were a sophisticated and successful doping programme. Not cycling team. Nobody is denying the sophistication of City’s doping attempts. What that doesn’t equate to is a well run club.
And this is where the disconnect exists in this exchange. To me, compliance is part of being “well-run” for entities from which such is expected/a must. I don’t know how else to articulate this, and perhaps it’s my damage in this regard, but what I’m saying honestly isn’t crazy to me.
Being well-run for football clubs isn’t just buying player A for 8M - declaring you’re paying them 100k when you’re paying them 400k - selling player B for 15M, and winning XYZ trophy. Especially when you do so breaking every possible rule and then find yourself in a legal crucible that will or can delegitimise whatever honours you’ve attained - how is that being “well-run”?
The above doesn’t mean that there aren’t “well-run doping programs” or that they’re an oxymoron. I haven’t suggested this. If the context was about criminals, scams etc - I’m sure that there are plenty that are relatively/comparatively better run than others. That’s irrelevant in a discussion and assessment of football clubs - because again - compliance is part of being well-run for football clubs.
I feel like people are so enamoured with/by City’s “achievements” that they want to disregard how it was done and beat other clubs over it with the “well-run” talking point, when that’s not applicable to City. Not that it will matter to those people or to City fans, but the distinction between a “successful” rule breaching club and a “well-run club” should mean something.
I can‘t believe you‘re having such a hot discussion about semantics. You‘re both right, but nothing positive should be extracted from what Cheaty are doing. They‘ve single handedly ruined the PL.
You’re absolutly not crazy, rather very clear, and I agree with your argumentation. If there has been misunderstanding, I think it’s due to the fact that one can see Manchester City as BOTH as an English football club participating in the PL and UEFA competitions, AND an illicit organization owned and run by a despot family in the UAE to use as a propaganda device and a global mafia-like business facilitator prop. Both these statements are today the truth about Man City.
Man City is definitely NOT a well run football club, sort of like Donald Trump is not good at being a president. Man City is however, a well run propaganda and mafia business tool, because it seems to me like the UAE royal family are largely achieving it’s goals with the use of the club, like they do woth their cycling team. A bit like Donald Trump is quite good at becoming elected for president, given how completely and obviously unsuitable for the job he has always been.
I remember that story. Do you think it was true? Surely a player AND his agent cant be that stupid
Yeah, Mark Hughes even said himself that it was likely to be true. He said that the player didn't even recognise who he was when they first met!I remember that story. Do you think it was true? Surely a player AND his agent cant be that stupid
I would link a site with his quotes but I'm a newbie still and don't want to post the wrong thing. Google brings various articles up when searching "Robinho didn't know who Man City were" though.It's amazing what a totally legit and normal amount of money being shoved in your face will make you look past. City being non entity team, that didn't even exist in your mind before you received an offer from them..
What's the reason for the delay ?
If we can pay Sanchos and Rashfords millions of pounds in offshore accounts and buying clubs some business dealing somewhere in Middle East, we would not have any problem offloading them and our net spend would have been drastically better
Shame. Absolute shame for everyone involved. I hate these pricks. We are about to start a new season, and they get to parade their new manager and new signings. What a bunch of cheats.
I'd rather prefer Newcastle to whatever Man city is, although they are both evil and rotten to the core.
Politics has really ruined the world. Politics and greed.
I'd rather prefer Newcastle to whatever Man city is, although they are both evil and rotten to the core.
Politics has really ruined the world. Politics and greed.
Their lawyers are the best in the world. Even if the PL have concrete evidence making it stick won’t be easy. Secondly the delicate issue here is that a guilty verdict which is likely will affect the PL brand. I’d imagine that the 130 charges need to be fought and heard 1 by 1.
No. I do not agree. The PL brand value matters more if things are corrected and fixed. Allowing cheats to continue will affect the brand value.
What will hurt PL most is that they go after City but are unable to get a verdict. That will hurt the brand value and I am worried that is what is going to happen and hence the delay.
But I hope and pray that there is justice and cheats like them get tossed to the curb.
Perhaps world politics changes overnight, and we start walking towards the right way, even if its symbolic.
As much as I agree on a morale point, the brand of both Serie A and the SPL took an absolute battering when they went after rangers and when Juventus got their desserts. Weather we as Man Utd fans like it or not, after all those league wins Man City are now a global brand. When I take my 8 year old to football on a Saturday morning in Newquay 330 miles from Manchester there are 5 or 6 Man City shirts. It wasn’t like that when I grew up and I was in a big city.
They're negotiating a financial package.
Less than a month to go before the new season begins. Utter disgrace this isn't sorted out yet.
Yes, agreed. But taking Italian league as example is wrong. The money doesnt flow there, so when Juventus got the kick, suddenly the only 2-3 teams that played, got kicked out. So they suffered. Here, city will be replaced by another strong team before the regime kill the journalist who first broke the news of cheating.
Isn't it out of the Premier League's hands though. All down to the professionals handling the case, who quite simply don't care when the new league starts.
Well it's not soft power influencing, sports washing efficiency or political pressure, that's for sure, because I've been told several times on here that's daft and that's not what's happening.
There's no pressure from anywhere for it to get resolved though. It's grim.
Are these professionals on an hourly rate?
Unfortunately as KCs, they are duty bound to work on other cases, they aren't privately hired arbiters that are agreed between the parties.
Other cases people of this level work on are often just as enormous and take lengthy periods of time. Additionally they may be posted to trials often a year in advance that take up the days, and could prejudice trial outcomes if they were to drop off to finish case work.
The longer it takes the more I feel there is something sinister going on, but while this timeframe has now gone beyond the norm there are still genuine reasons for the time taken. The size and volume of the charges, high end legal appointments from City and City's refusal to co-operate (which is actually some of the charges) adds to this, and the judges need to make their judgement as watertight as possible.
Absolutely disgraceful that we are entering yet another season with this still unresolved. Maresca is now being a smug prick just like his predecessor saying he's not concerned about it at all.
It is a disgrace how the biggest football league is handling this, as if they try to do everything to make it disappear not to run into any potential issues.
But I also wonder why the other clubs are not making a huge deal out of it and put pressure on them.