CL 19/20 Group Stages: Week 6 (Last Round)

[giorno]

That's like half a second before, Hummels was level with him and beginning to push him off the ball. If you look at the first picture again, at Esposito's supporting leg and movement - that's not a step he's taking, it's not a running motion. He knows what's coming and lunges infront of Hummels in order to get fouled.

I do agree with @thepolice123 that it was high risk/reckless and that's why I can understand the ref giving it and VAR not intervening, but I don't think Esposito has any intention of progressing the attack at the point contact is made.

He's ahead and is moving to get in front of Hummels to cut him off. It's the entire reason why Hummels even lunges into a last ditch tackle in the first place, because he has no chance to make any other play there. Esposito has position and moves to secure it, Hummels goes for a desperate challenge that is virtually guaranteed to take him out, is late on top of that and ends up clipping Esposito's leg from behind

It's a textbook penalty

 

[Ajaxsuarez]

we were shit and didn't deserve to win at all.

that said, this is a little odd:

 

[filibuster]

we were shit and didn't deserve to win at all.

that said, this is a little odd:

There were 2 different pauses on that frame, and people just try to milk it with the wrong one. There is an offside in both positions, as you can see the body shapes don't change from a frame to the other.

It is just the speed of the ball is much larger than Ajax player's speed, who was static just before making the attempt, so he was not in full acceleration.

When I read about VAR and how they use it for offsides, it is very precise. They record the frame and the corresponding time when the ball is not in contact with the foot and then insert that time to get the frame for the offside, where they do the projections if needed.

 

[Ajaxsuarez]

There were 2 different pauses on that frame, and people just try to milk it with the wrong one. There is an offside in both positions, as you can see the body shapes don't change from a frame to the other.

I agree that Promes' shoulder might well have been offside even in the earlier frame. Even the one shown by Dutch TV is a frame or two to late though, seeing as the IFAB law states that the moment that matters is the moment of "first contact" with the ball, which surely isn't when the ball is in the air with ziyech's foot, but rather when it's still on the ground just inside the box right as Ziyech makes contact. Hard to tell whether Promes is or isn't offside at that point but either way it doesn't excuse using the VAR using the vastly wrong moment.

When I read about VAR and how they use it for offsides, it is very precise. They record the frame and the corresponding time when the ball is not in contact with the foot and then insert that time to get the frame for the offside, where they do the projections if needed.

The science behind drawing the lines in the PL's system (and I imagine the same technology used by UEFA) is very exact, as you can see in this video explanation by FIFA


The problem is that the issue being questioned here, or with the Son decision a few weeks back, isn't whether the drawing of lines is correct but whether the moment of passing is equally accurate, which by all accounts it isn't. In fact with not a single mention/explanation anywhere about whether this is done/assisted by technology as well, even as the push for answers on this matter have increased, it seems that the moment is determined by a referee with a mouse in the VAR booth. This adds a massive human-error element to the otherwise very accurate technology.

You say that they record the first frame where the ball isn't in contact with the foot but that would be in direct contradiction to the (newish) IFAB law on what moment to record, precisely because the foot and ball tend to travel in tandem for a good while after a ball is struck, making it very difficult to identify any exact moment, whereas research by the IFAB found that the moment of first contact was a lot more clearly identifiable.

 

[always_hoping]

You somehow forget about there 0-0 against Napoli....how convenient.

A result that Napoli would love to forget. Its poor results like that could cost them a knock out place in a group with Liverpool again.

 

[filibuster]

I agree that Promes' shoulder might well have been offside even in the earlier frame. Even the one shown by Dutch TV is a frame or two to late though, seeing as the IFAB law states that the moment that matters is the moment of "first contact" with the ball, which surely isn't when the ball is in the air with ziyech's foot, but rather when it's still on the ground just inside the box right as Ziyech makes contact. Hard to tell whether Promes is or isn't offside at that point but either way it doesn't excuse using the VAR using the vastly wrong moment.

The science behind drawing the lines in the PL's system (and I imagine the same technology used by UEFA) is very exact, as you can see in this video explanation by FIFA

The problem is that the issue being questioned here, or with the Son decision a few weeks back, isn't whether the drawing of lines is correct but whether the moment of passing is equally accurate, which by all accounts it isn't. In fact with not a single mention/explanation anywhere about whether this is done/assisted by technology as well, even as the push for answers on this matter have increased, it seems that the moment is determined by a referee with a mouse in the VAR booth. This adds a massive human-error element to the otherwise very accurate technology.

You say that they record the first frame where the ball isn't in contact with the foot but that would be in direct contradiction to the (newish) IFAB law on what moment to record, precisely because the foot and ball tend to travel in tandem for a good while after a ball is struck, making it very difficult to identify any exact moment, whereas research by the IFAB found that the moment of first contact was a lot more clearly identifiable.

I found the article I was referring to, and yes, you are right. It is the first touch that counts. They just showed two images A and B, one with touching the ball and the other one was the ball in the air, so I wrongly assumed it is the last frame.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...-2-4cm-offside-allowed-13cm-margin-error.html

So they go through the frames at 0.02s each till you get contact. It is arguably only imprecise when the speed of the target player is high. But here that was not the case.

 

[Ajaxsuarez]

I found the article I was referring to, and yes, you are right. It is the first touch that counts. They just showed two images A and B, one with touching the ball and the other one was the ball in the air, so I wrongly assumed it is the last frame.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...-2-4cm-offside-allowed-13cm-margin-error.html

So they go through the frames at 0.02s each till you get contact. It is arguably only imprecise when the speed of the target player is high. But here that was not the case.

that article was pure speculation though, and speculation about precisely the problem of how the exact moment is determined

the point here though is that the moment seemingly chosen wasn't anywhere near to that 0.02s window. it was way off.

also the point of "0.02s" is just them taking the (assumed) frame rate of the camera, not them stating that the VAR actually systematically goes through the decision 0.02s at a time to determine the right point before asking for the technology's verdict

anyway this is the moment (frames) that should have been used:

 

[Eric7C]

Apparently hiring and firing managers is disastrous and never leads to success! Somebody ought to look at how many trophies the chavs have won in the last 15 years with nearly as many managers and the current shambles we are going through!

Culture of winning, comes from the very top of the clubs hierarchy.

Because regardless of manager they always maintain a quality well balanced squad. They have also dominated the youth cup for the last 10 years.

They came 3rd and won the Europa last season, it wasn't a broken team.

I think all of this is true. Chelsea have won as many league titles as United since 2005, 1 CL, 2 ELs, couple of FA Cups (?). They do have a culture of winning and they build a squad with a vision, and so the change of managers tends to not have a very dramatic effect. But also it wouldn't work without managers of a sufficient level and Lampard seems a good attacking coach.

At United, we have a poor coach and an even poorer overall plan.

 

[croadyman]

Chelsea are showing the benefit of giving talented youngsters loan spells. There is no doubt that Mount, Abraham & Tomori have really benefited from it.

Definitely helps that Chelsea have better players for these youngsters to look up to than Utd have with our lot.

Can't argue that Lampard has them playing a really exciting brand of football and you can see the plan,whereas with Utd I haven't a clue what we are trying to do.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Lampard has basically been everything as a young manager that you'd want at Utd but instead we have (and I love him) possibly the worst manager in the league.

 

[Judas]

Lampard has basically been everything as a young manager that you'd want at Utd but instead we have (and I love him) possibly the worst manager in the league.

Yep, and it was evident even in the very first game of the season.

 

[Sjaakmeoff]

we were shit and didn't deserve to win at all.

that said, this is a little odd:

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[GhastlyHun]

Good lord, I just saw Sabitzer's goal. What a corkscrew of a shot

 

[No Idea For Nickname]

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[Ajaxsuarez]

Lampard has basically been everything as a young manager that you'd want at Utd but instead we have (and I love him) possibly the worst manager in the league.

watching him in the stadium last night he has a fantastic aura as well. struts around like a charismatic geezer with a brain

 

[giorno]

Tbf Chelsea generally make good decisions re:managers, in the Abramovich era. Only Scolari and Villas-Boas were failures

 

[SportingCP96]

Nothing is stagnant in football, french league could well improve in the next few years and it's really not that bad all considering their financial limitations (bar PSG of course).

For example,even excluding PSG, look at the confrontations between french clubs and english clubs in last few years, PL clubs really don't find it that easy, far from it (see Lyon against City last season or Monaco against Arsenal,City and Tottenham the previous seasons).

Oh and if you english could stop stealing all our best players from our shite league, that could also help!

It's funny and quite ironic btw to see all the english fans having a go at french league when actually, many of their players and most of their biggest stars in the last 15-20 years have come from this league (Drogba,Henry,Cantona to name a few)

Buddy you're preaching to the wrong person. I have defended both the Portuguese and the French league as the biggest exports of talent for football in the past 20 years and all of that is true I 100% agree. Also I am not English I am Portuguese.

I agree with what you said but that has nothing to di with Mbappe his level and potential and quality is too big for the French league point blank period. Neymar went there and his career has stagnated if Mbappe stayed until he was 27 it would be a waste of a generational talent. In the next 10 years PSG will probably win the title 9x there is simply no real competition for them or Mbappe who is playing against people so below his quality and ability. As I said he needs to go too a big club to further excel the the fantastic ability he has.

 

[SportingCP96]

we were shit and didn't deserve to win at all.

that said, this is a little odd:

This on side imo.

 

[blue blue]

If the Ajax chance was onside, and it wasn't, maybe we should look a bit closer at the handball shout for a Chelsea penalty. The ref didn't call for VAR when you can see the defenders left hand knocking the ball off Tomori's head.

 

[Yuri37]

Buddy you're preaching to the wrong person. I have defended both the Portuguese and the French league as the biggest exports of talent for football in the past 20 years and all of that is true I 100% agree. Also I am not English I am Portuguese.

I agree with what you said but that has nothing to di with Mbappe his level and potential and quality is too big for the French league point blank period. Neymar went there and his career has stagnated if Mbappe stayed until he was 27 it would be a waste of a generational talent. In the next 10 years PSG will probably win the title 9x there is simply no real competition for them or Mbappe who is playing against people so below his quality and ability. As I said he needs to go too a big club to further excel the the fantastic ability he has.

That's got nothing to do with the french league but with the fact he's been unlucky with injuries since joining Paris (and injuries which happened at the most crucial times for his team).

When he's been fit to play, he's been amazing for Paris, both in Ligue 1 and CL (ask Liverpool, Naples or Bayern).

 

[Ajaxsuarez]

If the Ajax chance was onside, and it wasn't, maybe we should look a bit closer at the handball shout for a Chelsea penalty. The ref didn't call for VAR when you can see the defenders left hand knocking the ball off Tomori's head.

yeah I peersonally think that should have been a penalty, and also think the 2nd minute chelsea handball should have been a penalty. I'm pretty sure the only reason that 2nd minute one wasn't called a penalty was a technicality:


Linesman incorrectly judged Promes offside - linesman delays flag for promising attack; promes gets ball to vd Beek. Vd beek shoots ball blatantly hits (deflects) on to Alonso's arm. Then once the ball rolls out of play the linesman's flag finally goes up for earlier "spotted" offside and ref blows for offside.

now the handball happened in open play before any whistle went, but the moment the ref blows for the supposed offside, delayed, flag, everything that happened between the offside call and the whistle is void. basically had Ajax scored or had the ref blown for the handball as it happened, Ajax would have had a penalty. Once the ref then blew for the linesman offside call instead, play had been stopped and so VAR wouldn't be allowed to give a penalty for the handball because it was preceded by the moment the ref was at that point blowing for.

it's a really strange situation actually that I find interesting more than an egregious error. the error is the linesman's incorrect offside call but once that mistake was made I find it had to take too much issue with the outcome, but I think it's a very interesting situation in terms of how the procedure works

 

[Bepi]

So we have Portuguese fans hidding behind the lack of quality chances to justify the horrid conversion rate of Ronaldo and Dutch fans seeing ghosts to justify their entitlement to good and fair game? Mmh.

 

[Ajaxsuarez]

So we have Portuguese fans hidding behind the lack of quality chances to justify the horrid conversion rate of Ronaldo and Dutch fans seeing ghosts to justify their entitlement to good and fair game? Mmh.

eh I just happen to be particularly interested (and critical) of the current implementation of VAR, especially regarding offside and handball laws, and the unintended consequences and biases these produce in general. In this case it just happens to intersect with a couple moments in the game of the club I support.

I think we (Ajax) were horrid last night, particularly in the second half, and in some way I'm happy we lost because Ten Hag needs a wake up call about our midfield that was masked by the flattering results in our first two games in the group

 

[blue blue]

yeah I peersonally think that should have been a penalty, and also think the 2nd minute chelsea handball should have been a penalty. I'm pretty sure the only reason that 2nd minute one wasn't called a penalty was a technicality:


Linesman incorrectly judged Promes offside - linesman delays flag for promising attack; promes gets ball to vd Beek. Vd beek shoots ball blatantly hits (deflects) on to Alonso's arm. Then once the ball rolls out of play the linesman's flag finally goes up for earlier "spotted" offside and ref blows for offside.

now the handball happened in open play before any whistle went, but the moment the ref blows for the supposed offside, delayed, flag, everything that happened between the offside call and the whistle is void. basically had Ajax scored or had the ref blown for the handball as it happened, Ajax would have had a penalty. Once the ref then blew for the linesman offside call instead, play had been stopped and so VAR wouldn't be allowed to give a penalty for the handball because it was preceded by the moment the ref was at that point blowing for.

it's a really strange situation actually that I find interesting more than an egregious error. the error is the linesman's incorrect offside call but once that mistake was made I find it had to take too much issue with the outcome, but I think it's a very interesting situation in terms of how the procedure works

I hear what you are saying and that incident and the process is far too complicated for the officials to resolve in the heat of the moment. I'm not a fan of the current use of VAR. In defence of Alonso I would say the ball was deflected onto his hand at very close quarters and it wasn't in any way deliberate on his part. Even if his arm wasn't in a natural position my view is that it would have been very harsh to give handball for a ball approaching from a deflection that close to the player.

VAR was meant to take bad decisions out of the game and at the moment I think it brings in more debate than before. It does take the heat off the Ref to an extent but I'm bored with more talk of decisions than the football. It's here for now and probably for ever but we need to work out how to use it properly. I hate the fact that it seriously effects fans celebrations and would stop it just on that basis.

PS. I thought Chelsea were the better team and Ajax looked tired at the end. They had 9 minutes to equalise but didn't really work hard enough.

 

[Bepi]

eh I just happen to be particularly interested (and critical) of the current implementation of VAR, especially regarding offside and handball laws, and the unintended consequences and biases these produce in general. In this case it just happens to intersect with a couple moments in the game of the club I support.

I think we (Ajax) were horrid last night, particularly in the second half, and in some way I'm happy we lost because Ten Hag needs a wake up call about our midfield that was masked by the flattering results in our first two games in the group

ok but we as fans should really stop moving the goalposts to excuse our heroes falling short imho... I mean, Ronaldo gets 9 fecking shots to score 1 goal and also squanders any given setpiece against the wall but but but it is Juve’s fault not being free flowing enough... and other fans (Ajax fans here but it is the same everywhere, see Spurs notable vocal posters here) being so rightly in love with their brand to become oblivious to the fact that it is not always possible to punch above their given weight and that luck also plays a big factor in small margins game: do you want a VarSquared supervising VAR? No VAR at all?? It will never be enough, so just move on and focus on winning your next game?

 

[Ajaxsuarez]

ok but we as fans should really stop moving the goalposts to excuse our heroes falling short imho... I mean, Ronaldo gets 9 fecking shots to score 1 goal and also squanders any given setpiece against the wall but but but it is Juve’s fault not being free flowing enough... and other fans (Ajax fans here but it is the same everywhere, see Spurs notable vocal posters here) being so rightly in love with their brand to become oblivious to the fact that it is not always possible to punch above their given weight and that luck also plays a big factor in small margins game: do you want a VarSquared supervising VAR? No VAR at all?? It will never be enough, so just move on and focus on winning your next game?

sure but I could write a whole story, as I've been doing elsewhere repeatedly all season, about my frustrations with Ten Hag and his unwavering adherence to a "double pivot" midfield system explicitly built around Frenkie de Jong, without any player like that to make it work whatsoever, but it would of no interest to all but a couple posters on this forum. VAR and its implementation on the other hand is a far more universal discussion within the "football community"

 

[Rednotdead]

They have two Ballon D’Or finalists in their side!

Ok, they were very ordinary last night, even with two ballon d'or finalists in their side.

 

[Suedesi]

I would say that he is in top 3 dmc in the world right now. I wanted him this summer but of course that that was too smart to do for our club

Some hilarious overrating of Brozovic in here, who's neither world class nor top 3 dmc in the world right now. He's a decent, inconsistent player that provides good Youtube moments and fecks up basic stuff during a match

 

[FootyGirl88]

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[Cnaiür urs Skiötha]

I have a feeling RB Salzburg might get a result today in Naples.

 

[Klopper76]

I have a feeling RB Salzburg might get a result today in Naples.

They seem fairly open defensively so wouldn't surprise me to see Napoli beat them.

Expecting a few changes for us tonight. I think Keita & Chamberlain will both play.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Moment of truth for Ajax. Beat Chelsea here and yer all but through. Losing hear might drop you to 3rd place and make things difficult.

I love kicking down open doors.

And I don't think that saying works in English.

 

[P-Ro]

Managed to wrangle a ticket to the Ajax match this afternoon. There will be at least 500% more goals than the first leg.

 

[Bepi]

Win in Moscow tomorrow and Sarri can work at his Sarriball with no worries until February for good.

 

[dbs235]

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Expect Liverpool to be 1-0 inside 10 minutes. So probably Mane.

 

[Harry190]

Moment of truth for Ajax. Beat Chelsea here and yer all but through. Losing hear might drop you to 3rd place and make things difficult.

I love kicking down open doors.

And I don't think that saying works in English.

Not as well as in French.

 

[Klopper76]

Barcelona aren't looking all that in their game. Slavia Prague have had a few good chances.

 

[fps]

Ha Dembele, I don’t even care if it was a foul, he’s so petulant and up himself.

 

[Zoo]

The mighty Barca are struggling against Slavia Praha.

 

[Bole Top]

Valverde is something else. it's incredible they can struggle so much with all these players on the field.