CL 19/20 Group Stages: Week 6 (Last Round)

[do.ob]

Has nothing to do with it being Chelsea, it's just clearly the wrong decision and it's mental that VAR is that meaningless it can't even sort out a situation like that

It's not covered in that PDF, but as far as I know predictability of outcome also is something that is considered, meaning players are expected to put their arms behind their torso if they step into a shot/cross to block it. There were a couple of similar penalties awarded in Bundesliga lately and with that in mind I don't think that penalty call was outrageous or a failure of VAR.



Here's a write-up in English of Conte's post match comments btw:

https://www.football-italia.net/146105/conte-inter-mistakes-planning

 

[UncleBob]

It's not covered in that PDF, but as far as I know predictability of outcome also is something that is considered, meaning players are expected to put their arms behind their torso if they step into a shot/cross to block it. There were a couple of similar penalties awarded in Bundesliga lately.



Here's a write-up in English of Conte's post match comments btw:

https://www.football-italia.net/146105/conte-inter-mistakes-planning

No.

Plenty of players do it to avoid the risk, but it's not exactly risk free either.

But there's not a single rule or anything else about expecting players to do it, would be utter madness.

 

[thepolice123]

I don't think Inter were that impressive. In the first game they shut Dortmund out almost entirely, but today Dortmund were doing allright in attack - even during the first half; Götze in particular had a criminal miss. On the other side Inter didn't have a lot of great attacks, the second goal definitely was one, but the first was yet another feckup by Akanji well exploited by an individual moment from Martinez. Their pressing caused some problems, but there are a dozen teams in Bundesliga who can press like that and if it doesn't lead to goals and you're dead on your feet in the second half it's not that great after all, is it?

p.s. their pass completion was 84% in the second half

I thought they had a good first half and really threatened on the counter. This Inter team had just went through a gruelling schedule, 6 games in something like 17 days so it was obvious they aren't going to maintain their workrate. Once Dortmund took control of the game, it was as good as over. Should have switched to a flat back 4 and try to contain Dortmund on the wings.

Surprised to see they had 84% pass completion. Dortmund's pressing and high-line really took them to the cleaners.

 

[FigmentOfYerImagination]

I mean for the penalty the player appeared to have had slightly extended his arm whereas in the overruled goal Abraham knew nothing about it (but still no goal, like you say). By the way, I saw the second goal again and I think it was just the live angle that made it look offside. Anyway, I get that Ajax would feel more hard done by in this game than us.

His arm was virtually vertical in a natural position (around 30 deg with respect to the vertical), not much more he could do. :/

Even if one would be extremely harsh in interpretation of it as extended (as in not entirely vertical and even protruding for a few cm from the silhouette) and gives a pen, it still is never a second yellow as that would imply corrupt intend. I would imagine Ajax will challenge this card as it has potentially major consequences for the next game and the entire group phase as well.

 

[Klopper76]

What I’m confused about is why you’re talking about that uneventful Chelsea Ajax game, and not our thrilling 2-1 victory against Genk.

 

[FigmentOfYerImagination]

What I’m confused about is why you’re talking about that uneventful Chelsea Ajax game, and not our thrilling 2-1 victory against Genk.

We are indeed all amazed that you found the city.

 

[do.ob]

No.

Plenty of players do it to avoid the risk, but it's not exactly risk free either.

But there's not a single rule or anything else about expecting players to do it, would be utter madness.

It's what German referees say on twitter and it's the way these games are being officiated.
And not every guideline is always written down in the official rules, every season referees and players get briefed on how particular situations are supposed to be handled.

 

[UncleBob]

I mean for the penalty the player appeared to have had slightly extended his arm whereas in the overruled goal Abraham knew nothing about it (but still no goal, like you say). By the way, I saw the second goal again and I think it was just the live angle that made it look offside. Anyway, I get that Ajax would feel more hard done by in this game than us.

Great

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

First it's a pretty obvious foul on Blind, which is ignored, then it's the penalty and sending off two players which shafted Ajax for the rest of the match.

It would be a bit of a surprise if someone doesn't get that Ajax feel more hard done by...

 

[el3mel]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

WTF? Has he lost the plot?

 

[UncleBob]

It's what German referees say on twitter and it's the way these games are being officiated.
And not every guideline is always written down in the official rules, every season referees and players get briefed on how particular situations are supposed to be handled.

Get the german refs out of international matches then.

 

[do.ob]

Get the german refs out of international matches then.

The referee was from Italy?!

 

[UncleBob]

The referee was from Italy?!

He made a feck up, shit happens, hopefully he'll be excluded from the rest of the tournament

But if German refs are saying that their view on incidents like that is that the players are expected to put their hands behind their back and if they don't and the ball hits their arm it's a penalty, well, then exclude them from international tournaments until they learn.

Plenty of players do put their arms behind their back, plenty don't, doesn't change the rules for handball.

 

[P-Ro]

Managed to wrangle a ticket to the Ajax match this afternoon. There will be at least 500% more goals than the first leg.

I underestimated how crazy the game would be. My first experience of seeing VAR chalking off a winning goal live. I hate VAR for taking away that special moment from me.

 

[Dancfc]

I underestimated how crazy the game would be. My first experience of seeing VAR chalking off a winning goal live. I hate VAR for taking away that special moment from me.

That's the issue for me, imagine if a late CL winning goal gets chalked off for something so petty. Anything other than obvious and spectacular errors should be left alone.

They're fixing what doesn't need fixing and making what needs fixing worse.

 

[filibuster]

Just go in that video clip posted by Uncle Bob, go to second 0:06 and pause-play frame by frame and you can clearly see his right hand is tight to the body, but with his left hand he moves towards his body and at the last moment (around 0:07-0:08) moves back out to stop the ball.

And you need to consider the distance the ball travelled and the fact it was going straight for the corner. That's a penalty all day long. Just look for the movement of his left hand and you'll see it, it is obvious and deliberate as well.

 

[Berbaclass]

Conte

 

[do.ob]

He made a feck up, shit happens, hopefully he'll be excluded from the rest of the tournament

But if German refs are saying that their view on incidents like that is that the players are expected to put their hands behind their back and if they don't and the ball hits their arm it's a penalty, well, then exclude them from international tournaments until they learn.

Plenty of players do put their arms behind their back, plenty don't, doesn't change the rules for handball.

If refrees and VARs from two different countries see that call as correct, then maybe there is a tiny tiny chance, that you're missing something?

The logic is that if you deliberately step into a cross/shot and don't try to turn away/hide your hands then you have to expect getting hit by the ball, making the handling of the ball (somewhat) intentional. The same principle is being expressed regarding a different situation in the text you've quoted:
having the hand/arm above shoulder height is rarely a ‘natural’ position and a player is ‘taking a risk’ by having the hand/arm in that position, including when sliding

 

[Ajaxsuarez]

And you need to consider the distance the ball travelled and the fact it was going straight for the corner.

watch the uncleBob video again though and you'll see on the first replay that it took a reflection off mazraoui

 

[filibuster]

watch the uncleBob video again though and you'll see on the first replay that it took a reflection off mazraoui

That just explains why he changed the movement direction of the hand. He was coming across to block the shot, but because of the small deflection his body was being bypassed, so he extended his arm to block the shot. C'mon, it is there to be seen. Sometimes you need to take it on the chin.

 

[Ajaxsuarez]

C'mon, it is there to be seen. Sometimes you need to take it on the chin.

don't know why you feel the need to take on such a patronising tone when for the most part i think that if you give a handball there, you give a yellow by the rules, and that the case for the handball is stronger than it not being one.

what's your take on the ref giving an advantage for a second yellow preceding that though?

 

[filibuster]

don't know why you feel the need to take on such a patronising tone

Because you obviously have seen the replay and the deflection, and the movement of the hand towards the ball, but mentioned only the deflection.

for the most part i think that if you give a handball there, you give a yellow by the rules, and that the case for the handball is stronger than it not being one.

I am not sure I'm following you here, he did give a yellow card.

what's your take on the ref giving an advantage for a second yellow preceding that though?

It was the right call because it was a scoring opportunity.

Imagine a more obvious situation, when for example an attacker intercepts a pass in midfield and goes on the counter, the midfielder blatantly holds his shirt, but fails to get him on the ground. The attacker proceeds to meet the last defender, who in desperation fouls him in the box. It is an obvious yellow for the midfielder and penalty and red for the defender.

 

[Not a plastic hoe.]

WTF? Has he lost the plot?

Wtf he actually said that?!
Those "Sassuolo and Calliagri players" have been the best in this squad so far!
Poor Sensi and Barella I feel bad for them.

 

[Ajaxsuarez]

Because you obviously have seen the replay and the deflection, and the movement of the hand towards the ball, but mentioned only the deflection.

you mean like you only mentioned the "shot going straight for the corner"?

It was the right call because it was a scoring opportunity.

was it a "clear goalscoring opportunity" as per the law? so if Hudson-Odoi had been taken out by a foul there, you feel a red card would have been warranted?

 

[kaiser1]

A team consisting of a prime Xavi/Iniesta/Messi were always bound to dominate. Pep surely made them great but they were on the path to greatness irrespective of Pep. Even the Barca team comprising of MSN were brilliant. I am not giving an excuse for Velverde, he is crap but Barca were bound to drop a level or two once Messi aged.

Barcelona were about to sell Xavi for being too short,
Messi was a prodigious winger, when Pep took him over and made him false 9, his numbers exploded

 

[Redplane]

Will be great to see Chelski finish second in that group. Ajax got screwed hardcore. Fight me.

 

[antihenry]

First it's a pretty obvious foul on Blind, which is ignored, then it's the penalty and sending off two players which shafted Ajax for the rest of the match.

It would be a bit of a surprise if someone doesn't get that Ajax feel more hard done by...

It was Blind, who initiated the contact, he's barged into Pulisic, not the other way around. Then he trips Abraham. Given that he was already on the yellow, he should have no complaints.

The handball was a penalty, but giving a second yellow to Veltman for that was harsh, because it's difficult to be absolutely sure it was intentional and due to Blind's sending off happening only seconds earlier.

I can understand Ajax's fans frustration and emotional reaction, but the ref's decisions here with the exception of a second yellow to Veltman were correct, imo.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Red button

They are different k.o. times as well.

 

[pacifictheme]

It was Blind, who initiated the contact, he's barged into Pulisic, not the other way around. Then he trips Abraham. Given that he was already on the yellow, he should have no complaints.

The handball was a penalty, but giving a second yellow to Veltman for that was harsh, because it's difficult to be absolutely sure it was intentional and due to Blind's sending off happening only seconds earlier.

I can understand Ajax's fans frustration and emotional reaction, but the ref's decisions here with the exception of a second yellow to Veltman were correct, imo.

Can you give an advantage and then come back to send a player off? I thought if you wanted to give a red you had to stop play there and then.

 

[Bloedrood]

Ajax got fecked, the ref has to blow the whistle after a 2nd yellow, shouldn't have let the play continue.

 

[Dr. Funkenstein]

I can understand Ajax's fans frustration and emotional reaction, but the ref's decisions here with the exception of a second yellow to Veltman were correct, imo.

You should also understand that the rational reaction of a football fan is that Ajax has been screwed intentionally for 5 points, 5 points and not 6 thanks only to the class and daring of Ajax.

In Amsterdam the VAR failed to correct and award Ajax a penalty. After that a goal was disallowed and the evidence presented was tampered with. How can a VAR that wants to make the fair decision take the wrong moment when the ball was already yards from the foot to claim off side, and then send out the image from frames earlier like that was the frame used? If it was just a very stupid but honest mistake, the right picture on which the decision was based would have been showed and the crowd would have gone berserk immediately. Free kicks and yellow cards weren't distributed fairly either, 3 points robbed.

Then the UEFA decides that Ajax can't bring it's fans to London, turning a British stadium embarrassingly quiet btw, so there was nobody to loudly and or violently protest the upcoming fraud. Chelsea gets an extremely soft penalty early in the game, VAR could have corrected it because he just didn't bring him down. It was Blind who defended, if Blind wasn't there the Chelsea player could and would have shot. If he had chosen to go down after the light contact it would have been debatable, but he didn't. The ref didn't allow Ajax to take the corner before half time while there was still time to play. What's going on in a ref's head to make a decision like that?

Ajax was 'unlucky' with the yellow cards, Chelsea's second goal should not have stood after VAR for off side. The ref should have given Blind a free kick, maybe yellow for the foul after that, VAR should have stepped in. What happened after was irrelevant, but even in case it was, it's not the kind of 'foul' that gets any team a penalty and a second yellow against Barcelona for example.

Now everybody starts sugarcoating it because it was an entertaining and eventful match, but it's Ajax that is entertaining and makes the CL eventful. But that's not what the CL is for, it's becoming an invitation only party for sheiks, oligarchs and Glazers with their clubs and Ajax wasn't isn't invited. It's not that I don't accept mistakes and bad luck with decisions that could have gone the other way, it's just that all decisions at crucial moments and very strange decisions going against one team somehow never happens to let's say Barcelona. They have played twenty times more CL matches in the past 10 years but never experienced two matches like this. Not to their disadvantage that is.

 

[Pow]

Ajax got fecked, the ref has to blow the whistle after a 2nd yellow, shouldn't have let the play continue.

Dont think thats the rules anymore. Saw it the other day too.

 

[krautrøck]

We are indeed all amazed that you found the city.

I heard they also sent a B-team to Gent "just in case".

 

[do.ob]

Turns out Conte said too much for just one article:
I: https://www.football-italia.net/146105/conte-inter-mistakes-planning
II: https://www.football-italia.net/146108/conte-inter-players-have-won-nothing

I don't think Inter are out yet though. Barcelona will be favourites at home against Dortmund and win the group if they beat them. Which means they would send the kids to Milan and since Inter won the head to head with Dortmund winning their remaining two games will see them through.

 

[Dr. Funkenstein]

 

[Pow]

Miles on.

 

[Pagh Wraith]

Watching the incident in the Chelsea game again, you can see that Veltman moved his arm towards the ball. While I still don't know the rules regarding advantage play, both decisions seem absolutely fine when you look at them individually. Personally, I think the double punishment makes sense though. If you completely ignored everything that happened after Blind's foul, you'd basically be giving the defending team the license to do anything they want to stop the advantage without getting punished. That can't be right. Imagine Veltman's handball were much clearer, let's say he actually caught the ball. I don't think anyone would be arguing against sending them both off in that case.

 

[Bepi]

Conte is very capable but he is aging pretty fast and really badly as a manager, still being not a global guru like Capello or Lippi... so there will not be many more venues accepting his more and more frequent outbursts out of frustration. He might just ask Bill Gates to donate him the £10B he needs for fun to assemble his top 11 (+11 on the bench +11 because you never know and in that case it will be £15B to stay put).

 

[Ajaxsuarez]

Dont think thats the rules anymore. Saw it the other day too.

IFAB:

"
Advantage should not be applied in situations involving serious foul play, violent conduct or a second cautionable offence unless there is a clear opportunity to score a goal. The referee must send off the player when the ball is next out of play, but if the player plays the ball or challenges/interferes with an opponent, the referee will stop play, send off the player and restart with an indirect free kick, unless the player committed a more serious offence.

"

so the question is was this a clear goalscoring opportunity, by the laws? If so, would CHO being taken down before he shot at goal have been a red card by that same definition of clear goalscoring opportunity?

you could argue that there's a more subjective take on that wording though if you'd really want to, by which it could be justified.

 

[Offside]

Miles on.

Which Ajax defender does the red line go with though

 

[Dr. Funkenstein]

IFAB:


so the question is was this a clear goalscoring opportunity, by the laws? If so, would CHO being taken down before he shot at goal have been a red card by that same definition of clear goalscoring opportunity?

you could argue that there's a more subjective take on that wording though if you'd really want to, by which it could be justified.

By which standard is this a clear goalscoring opportunity?

Besides the fact that the first foul was on Blind, and he might have gotten a second yellow for his foul after that but VAR should have given Ajax a free kick and therefore judged Veltman's hands irrelevant.

Miles on.

Contrary to two weeks ago, it's at least the right moment and the Chelsea's player foot is clearly off side if all the relevant Ajax defenders are in the shot.