Club ownership | Senior management team talk

[Eugenius]

Completely agree. I think it’s revisionist history to pretend bringing Amorim in was a shocker. However, keeping him rather than quickly admitting the mistake and trying to fix it (as was done to Motta and Lopetegui) is the mistake.

How is it revisionist. They literally sacked the DoF for not agreeing to it.

 

[Raoul]

Like I keep saying. Hire and fire until you find somebody that works.

And by works I mean somebody who can average 1.5 points per game. I don't think that's a big ask.

Given that's exactly what we've been doing for the past 12 years, how do you think its worked out for us ?

 

[golden_blunder]

They gave ETH too much time and did the same mistake 12 months later.

So learn from it

You don’t sack the upper management team every time it doesn’t work, that’s just illogical nonsense.

Think about if if we’d changed staff every time a coach got sacked, we’d have gone through 6 CEOs and DoFs since SAF left. Thats utter nonsense

 

[Amira]

How is it revisionist. They literally sacked the DoF for not agreeing to it.

And not a lot of people batted an eyelid then. In fact, INEOS were being slated for doing all they did to get Ashworth only to quickly realize he wasn’t a good fit.

It was only when Amorim started stinking up the place that people started looking back at Ashworth’s stance and seeing his point.

Amorim has been horrible but nobody was up in arms about his appointment when it happened apart from Dan Ashworth. That’s what makes it revisionist.

 

[Big Ron’s Coat]

To be fair he didn’t get some of the players he wanted though. By all accounts he was keener on Watkins over Sekso and Martinez over Lammens.

True. But both of those transfers would’ve been betting well against the odds. I just don’t see a scenario where we would’ve conspired to spend the majority of the transfer budget on two no10s (one of the few positions in which we were already pretty well stocked) and play Bruno in midfield otherwise.

 

[Woodenlung]

It’s really not. It’s grounds for them to find a new coach who understands English football. They took a gamble on a modern coach and it hasn’t worked out. Move on but let’s not exaggerate

Of course it's grounds for sacking. They've fundamentally misunderstood the strengths and weaknesses of the squad and what Amorim's system requires to be a success. And when they had the opportunity to address those issues, they didn't.

Wilcox and Berrada are the two highest level employees on the football side of the club. They've shown they aren't capable of making the right decisions. They should go.

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

So learn from it

You don’t sack the upper management team every time it doesn’t work, that’s just illogical nonsense.

Think about if if we’d changed staff every time a coach got sacked, we’d have gone through 6 CEOs and DoFs since SAF left. Thats utter nonsense

I am not calling for them to be sacked I just pointed out two poor decisions in the space of 12 months. Next decision is how much time to give Amorim and who his successor will be. Hopefully they learnt to focus on a PL proven or an experienced coach, not a newbie with a system ill suited to the squad. Wilcox and Berrada are safe but are not doing a very good job, but our modus operandi seems to be to hire persons who need to learn the job.

 

[Adz_99]

Given that's exactly what we've been doing for the past 12 years, how do you think its worked out for us ?

Have we though? Every manager has had about 2 and a half seasons each. We've had 6 full time managers since 2013. In the same time frame Chelsea have had 8 and they've actually won stuff.

I'm not saying we should aspire to be Chelsea but I think we've not actually been cut throat enough with our last 2 managers in particular. Giving Ten Hag that extra summer after the FA Cup has left us playing catch up ever since.

 

[Revan]

Where does that stop? Sack the upper management team every time a coach doesn’t work out?

I think it has been way more than that.

Not firing EtH at the end of that season was completely stupid. Then firing Ashworth for not agreeing for Amorim after waiting a year to hire him was even more stupid. Promoting Wilcox was also weird (to be fair Berrada going from effectively an assistant to DoF to a CEO was a way big jump). Hiring Amorim was ok, but it should not have been against Ashworth's wishes, and refusing to fire him is EtH episode in repeat.

I would say that every big decision since Ineos have taken over has been completely wrong.

It is making Glazers/Ed years look very good.

 

[Raoul]

Have we though? Every manager has had about 2 and a half seasons each. We've had 6 full time managers since 2013. In the same time frame Chelsea have had 8 and they've actually won stuff.

I'm not saying we should aspire to be Chelsea but I think we've not actually been cut throat enough with our last 2 managers in particular. Giving Ten Hag that extra summer after the FA Cup has left us playing catch up ever since.

If we had six full time managers throughout that time and we were more ruthless such that we gave each of them half the time they were actually given, wouldn't we just have 12 comparably ineffective managers during that time ?

At some point, one has to have a proper strategy in place to hire someone and go all in with them, even through initial difficult periods. That's not to say this will happen for much longer with Amorim, but I just don't get the benefit of constantly sacking and hiring. If anything it tells a story of ownership and senior executive instability and mismanagement.

 

[Adisa]

Please lads, put us out of our misery.

 

[BristolRuss]

Bruno staying isn't the end of the world, he's a good player and could still prove useful under the next manager.

I'm not going to rue the fact that Amorim didn't get an extra £100m to waste on his shitty system.

If played in the right position and system, sure. If we're just going to shoehorn him into a role which: A) doesn't suit his strengths. B) actively weakens us. Then yes, we should have sold him to fund a midfielder who can play in the system.

I don't blame Bruno in any of this. It's not his fault that we are this bad. The fault squarely lies with the manager who refuses to change the formation to something that suits our players.

 

[PlayerOne]

Given that's exactly what we've been doing for the past 12 years, how do you think its worked out for us ?

We haven't though, we have hired crap managers, given them far too much time and money and dug the hole deeper. Everyone sacks managers, look how well Chelsea do it. United as a club are far too sentimental, as are we, as fans. Fans will defending the manager until the damage is too deep.

 

[Acquire Me]

Glazers need to go, then we can heal.

 

[PlayerOne]

As for Ineos, they're boarding on clueless for me. Go against the DoF, sack him, then give Jason Wilcox the ultimate power for some reason. Feels not sacking Ruben is more about optics rather good management. Feels like they don't want to be proven wrong, rather than admitting to being wrong and moving on.

 

[Raoul]

We haven't though, we have hired crap managers, given them far too much time and money and dug the hole deeper. Everyone sacks managers, look how well Chelsea do it. United as a club are far too sentimental, as are we, as fans. Fans will defending the manager until the damage is too deep.

Its an argument that works both ways. You can cite Chelsea and someone else can cite Arsenal or Liverpool where Arteta and Klopp didn't seriously challenge for the league until year FOUR of their respective tenures. On the other end, Forest were taken from 17th to 7th in one year, only to sack their manager. Therefore there's no objective evidence that sacking managers each year yields better results than giving them a protracted run over a few years.

 

[Fooza]

Wilcox and Omar just pandering to Amorim, which is why his persistent with his formation

You'd think they'd be giving this guy a reality check and tell him he doesn't have good WB's for his system, nor the midfielders to play in a 2

These are footballing people supposedly, if they aren't having these hard talks with him, or worried he isn't going to like it and will leave, well tough

I know the view may not happen in reality, but I just find it weird how the board allow this for so long and nothing changes, sitting for the inevitable sacking

fecking force the guy to adapt - apparently they talk everyday.... would like to know what it really is about

 

[Roboc7]

We haven't though, we have hired crap managers, given them far too much time and money and dug the hole deeper. Everyone sacks managers, look how well Chelsea do it. United as a club are far too sentimental, as are we, as fans. Fans will defending the manager until the damage is too deep.

Chelsea would have sacked ETH after winning the FA Cup and they’d have sacked Amorim this summer. Whereas we always persist too long and then it has a knock on effect. The club really needs to learn to just bite the bullet and stop repeating the same mistake.

 

[George The Best]

Ineos are out of their depth here, just like Amorim. They sacked Ashworth, a seasoned DoF, as he apparently wasn’t in favour of appointing Ruben. SJR and his selected team thought they knew better. What a bloody mess we are in now. Winning the league by 2028 - only question is which league? They’ve stuck us into a relegation fight in the EPL. We have enough good players to be competitive in this league, not top 4 standard but certainly not bottom half of the table standard. Something needs to change, and fast. We need a new coach that understands this league and is not rigid in their formation, plus we need a proven DoF. Ineos need to own up to their mistakes, which I suspect SJR will be reluctant to. I think they should try and mend the relationship with Ashworth and listen to him next time. This mess needs sorting fast.

 

[Raoul]

Zero percent chance Jim isn't pondering a few changes if things don't improve

 

[clarkydaz]

SJR done an interview last season about the mistake on Dan Ashworth, saying how the Glazers were very understanding and lenient about it. Wonder what they think of Ineos now

 

[Matt851]

And not a lot of people batted an eyelid then. In fact, INEOS were being slated for doing all they did to get Ashworth only to quickly realize he wasn’t a good fit.

It was only when Amorim started stinking up the place that people started looking back at Ashworth’s stance and seeing his point.

Amorim has been horrible but nobody was up in arms about his appointment when it happened apart from Dan Ashworth. That’s what makes it revisionist.

Some were tbf, particularly about the ashworth decision. Many also made the point our squad didn't fit amorims system and it would cost huge amounts to get it too

 

[PlayerOne]

Its an argument that works both ways. You can cite Chelsea and someone else can cite Arsenal or Liverpool where Arteta and Klopp didn't seriously challenge for the league until year FOUR of their respective tenures. On the other end, Forest were taken from 17th to 7th in one year, only to sack their manager. Therefore there's no objective evidence that sacking managers each year yields better results than giving them a protracted run over a few years.

Not each year now, but Chelsea sack managers and win things. Arteta has tuned Arsenal around with nothing to show for it. If he doesn't win this season he should go. Klopp showed so much promise, it was clear they were heading somewhere. None of our managers have shown anything close to Areta or Klopp no matter the time given or money spent. More times makes zero difference if someone is not good enough. Given Moyes more time would have made zero difference.

 

[Garethw]

Ineos has been a fecking disaster. Have they made one right call yet?

 

[pcaming]

Ineos has been a fecking disaster. Have they made one right call yet?

Nope

 

[Adnan]

We can keep sacking the managers but until we sign players for a specific way of playing the game, we'll keep struggling. This current debacle is mainly due to the naivety of Jason Wilcox. I don't even know the type of direction he's implementing on the football side of the club. It's pretty bad if we look at it from a tactical and strategic pov as far as implementing a system of play is concerned.

Of course it's absolutely a bit odd to see the CEO appoint the head coach rather than the DoF (Ashworth) whose remit it should've been to head the football structure at the club. But they didn't stop there, they also selected the chief scout for Ashworth and also gave him no say as far as who was to assist him as the DoF, hence Wilcox was brought in by Berrarda as well. I think from what The Athletic have reported, it seems there was a power struggle between Berrarda/Wilcox vs Ashworth and Ratcliffe had no choice but to side with Berrarda due to his role as the CEO.

Mistakes can happen when hiring a head coach and you absolutely shouldn't look to sack everyone from the upper-management. But I would say that right now if Ratcliffe made a decision to bring in a new director of football, I would be in favour of that because for me the recruitment has been a mixed bag, without any thought process on how the team was going to develop themselves as far as playing a more dominant brand of football. How the DoF didn't even notice our biggest issues in two consecutive transfer windows is quite shocking and it's no surprise that we have the same problems we had several years ago.

Arteta and Klopp recruited players for a specific way of playing the game. Both managers went for players with pace, power, athleticism and technical quality in the first two lines of their respective teams. I don’t know why we don't seem to understand this.

 

[pcaming]

We can keep sacking the managers but until we sign players for a specific way of playing the game, we'll keep struggling. This current debacle is mainly due to the naivety of Jason Wilcox. I don't even know the type of direction he's implementing on the football side of the club. It's pretty bad if we look at it from a tactical and strategic pov as far as implementing a system of play is concerned.

Of course it's absolutely a bit odd to see the CEO appoint the head coach rather than the DoF (Ashworth) whose remit it should've been to head the football structure at the club. But they didn't stop there, they also selected the chief scout for Ashworth and also gave him no say as far as who was to assist him as the DoF, hence Wilcox was brought in by Berrarda as well. I think from what The Athletic have reported, it seems there was a power struggle between Berrarda/Wilcox vs Ashworth and Ratcliffe had no choice but to side with Berrarda due to his role as the CEO.

Mistakes can happen when hiring a head coach and you absolutely shouldn't look to sack everyone from the upper-management. But I would say that right now if Ratcliffe made a decision to bring in a new director of football, I would be in favour of that because for me the recruitment has been a mixed bag, without any thought process on how the team was going to develop themselves as far as playing a more dominant brand of football. How the DoF didn't even notice our biggest issues in two consecutive transfer windows is quite shocking and it's no surprise that we have the same problems we had several years ago.

Arteta and Klopp recruited players for a specific way of playing the game. Both managers went for players with pace, power, athleticism and technical quality in the first two lines of their respective teams. I don’t know why we don't seem to understand this.

That’s kinda what we did is it not? The issue is in the dugout.

 

[Adnan]

That’s kinda what we did is it not? The issue is in the dugout.

No we didn't. Our midfield is actually genuinely midtable EPL standard and they added Ugarte to that who had known limitations on the ball and also at defending space in a higher line.

Our problem in the dug-out has been exasperbated by a lack of a direction on the recruitment side. So hence it was easy to predict that we'd struggle this season.

 

[crackers0seven]

Glazers need to go, then we can heal.

We need to go lower for this, championship maybe!

 

[devilish]

We can keep sacking the managers but until we sign players for a specific way of playing the game, we'll keep struggling. This current debacle is mainly due to the naivety of Jason Wilcox. I don't even know the type of direction he's implementing on the football side of the club. It's pretty bad if we look at it from a tactical and strategic pov as far as implementing a system of play is concerned.

Of course it's absolutely a bit odd to see the CEO appoint the head coach rather than the DoF (Ashworth) whose remit it should've been to head the football structure at the club. But they didn't stop there, they also selected the chief scout for Ashworth and also gave him no say as far as who was to assist him as the DoF, hence Wilcox was brought in by Berrarda as well. I think from what The Athletic have reported, it seems there was a power struggle between Berrarda/Wilcox vs Ashworth and Ratcliffe had no choice but to side with Berrarda due to his role as the CEO.

Mistakes can happen when hiring a head coach and you absolutely shouldn't look to sack everyone from the upper-management. But I would say that right now if Ratcliffe made a decision to bring in a new director of football, I would be in favour of that because for me the recruitment has been a mixed bag, without any thought process on how the team was going to develop themselves as far as playing a more dominant brand of football. How the DoF didn't even notice our biggest issues in two consecutive transfer windows is quite shocking and it's no surprise that we have the same problems we had several years ago.

Arteta and Klopp recruited players for a specific way of playing the game. Both managers went for players with pace, power, athleticism and technical quality in the first two lines of their respective teams. I don’t know why we don't seem to understand this.

Amazing post. I couldn't have said it better

 

[pjaya]

INEOS is just slowly waiting for the patient to die (relegation in this case)
All the doctors is available yet still persists with Amorim

 

[spwd]

Given that's exactly what we've been doing for the past 12 years, how do you think its worked out for us ?

Because we've always waited too long and we have to right off 2 seasons minimum every bloody time.

 

[spwd]

INEOS is just slowly waiting for the patient to die (relegation in this case)
All the doctors is available yet still persists with Amorim

Same as the old set up. Everyone can hire the wrong person but we always wait too damn long and then that season is a right off.

 

[Valar Morghulis]

When are we going to stop deifying our managers? Let's start referring to them all as head coaches after Amorim, and treat them as such. Fill the squad up with quality young players chosen exclusively by a DOF and our scouts, and then sack every fecker who can't get them playing.

 

[Insanity]

It's really simple, our new 25% overlord and the clowns he hired in Wilcox and Berrada are completely out of their depth. Both of them have been given important positions which they have never held before and have fecked us up even more. We are literally going from bad to worse under these guys...buy hey hey hey...it's the local lad passionate Jimmy Brexit...so everything's going to be alright. At least we are now part owned by the guy with the proper birth place and accent.

We aren't winning the league under these guys in 3028, forget 2028. Also, the new stadium is a ruse. The only good thing that can come out of this shambles is maybe a full sale when these guys give up.

 

[Vicker]

Do INEOS want the team to play so bad intentionally and get relegated to the Champion League so eventually Glazer will be done with the club and INEOS can buy the club in a cheaper price?

 

[spwd]

Have we though? Every manager has had about 2 and a half seasons each. We've had 6 full time managers since 2013. In the same time frame Chelsea have had 8 and they've actually won stuff.

I'm not saying we should aspire to be Chelsea but I think we've not actually been cut throat enough with our last 2 managers in particular. Giving Ten Hag that extra summer after the FA Cup has left us playing catch up ever since.

Exactly. We've waited too long on all our sackings.

 

[spwd]

If we had six full time managers throughout that time and we were more ruthless such that we gave each of them half the time they were actually given, wouldn't we just have 12 comparably ineffective managers during that time ?

At some point, one has to have a proper strategy in place to hire someone and go all in with them, even through initial difficult periods. That's not to say this will happen for much longer with Amorim, but I just don't get the benefit of constantly sacking and hiring. If anything it tells a story of ownership and senior executive instability and mismanagement.

Very possibly yes. But we also might have found our unicorn too.
If a person isn't performing in their job. You get rid. You don't keep hoping they'll come good when every bit of evidence is pointing to the opposite.
There's got to be some reason to stay with someone other than blind faith that it might work out and there's been none in the last two appointments. Both of which are stubborn feckers who think they know better than everyone else around them who are doing a better job on mostly a far reduced budget.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

They are really bad.

Heads should roll along with Amorim.

I don't see why Wilcox shouldn't get demoted. Same with Berrada.

 

[Ahmer Baig]

They were quick to get rid of Ashworth I don’t know why they’re holding onto Amorim

Because Amorim is their man. They dont want to look stupid by firing Amorim after one year which would prove that Ashworth was correct.