Club ownership | Senior management team talk

Marwood said:
My "defence" of INEOS is causing the trouble? Flattered you think I'm that influential.

From the above description you'd think the Glazers had never happened.

Personally I think there's was a decent amount of damage done pre INEOS.
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No, your views are shared by many- just ignore all the facts in front that ineos have absolutely torn the club apart and destroyed it.

Nobody says there wasn't damage done , we all know their was. But this club was 3rd to 5th almost every year prior to 2024.

Now there is a genuine chance of relegation. Things weren't great pre Ineos, now they are absolutely horrendous.

They came in and were supposed to show signs of this club getting back to at least being close to the top table. They've done the exat opposite and driven it into the ground.

Can you pick 3 things they done right since they've come because the list of things they haven't, is extraordinarily long. It couldn't have gone worse under any other owners
 
Marwood said:
I think even a decent keeper drastically changes it. If Tom Heaton had been in goal the last three years I think things would be quite different from that alone.

That and stop using the lads who are braindead(Dalot and Shaw).


It can't all be put down to INEOS though. That stat about points under them is a bit misleading. They took over a sinking ship, we were trending downwards when they came in.

A lot of damage was obviously done before they took over but has impacted the results on their watch.

But obviously that downward trend now has to start reversing immediately.
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Yeah the team was heading for a tipping point regardless of INEOS, we’ve signed so much dross and had such a poor group of players on huge wages that eventually it was going to catch up with us.

However they have been a disaster with managers and that has massively inflated the problem. It was an absolute no brainer to sack ETH despite winning the Cup, hiring Amorim just hasn’t worked from the start or at any stage and he’s somehow still here.

These decisions have made a bad situation a lot worse and it’s just compounded by every game that Amorim is allowed to continue.
 
ZorinGorilla said:
If you genuinely believe the Daily Mail aren't asking 'obvious questions' for 'any purpose', I really don't know what can be done with you.



Real Madrid are owned by their members, so if their fans kick off, their governance need to placate them or face electoral oblivion.

When we kick off, the Glazers/Ratcliffe
laugh and up the price.

If you think the hypothetical 'Saudi-style saviours' you were previously suggesting will give the first hoot about us, well, prepare yourself for more disappointment.



We should rehire Ashworth, implement his philosophy, then go spare when it too fails!
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What nefarious "purpose" exactly are they hoping to achieve.

They're doing what journalists do - they're asking questions. And it's an entirely fair question that any decent journalist should ask - i.e. if the Manager is an abject failure, costing the club tens of millions in revenue, then shouldn't the people who's job it is to appoint him be under some pressure? What exactly is controversial about that?
 
smallred said:
No, your views are shared by many- just ignore all the facts in front that ineos have absolutely torn the club apart and destroyed it.

Nobody says there wasn't damage done , we all know their was. But this club was 3rd to 5th almost every year prior to 2024.

Now there is a genuine chance of relegation. Things weren't great pre Ineos, now they are absolutely horrendous.

They came in and were supposed to show signs of this club getting back to at least being close to the top table. They've done the exat opposite and driven it into the ground.

Can you pick 3 things they done right since they've come because the list of things they haven't, is extraordinarily long. It couldn't have gone worse under any other owners
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I'm no expert on everything going on behind the scenes but I think transfers have improved. You said yourself they've got rid of 20 players and largely they needed to go. I like a bunch of the players signed. Training ground improvement. Seem to have stabilised finances. I don't know if the individuals are good enough but they've put the management structure so many wanted in place.

The way you describe you'd think they took over a pretty stable club.

Look at the trend. We were freefalling when they came in. Things were getting worse under ETH.

Everything you've said about them was said about the Glazers. Make your mind up which one has "torn the club apart."

Roboc7 said:
Yeah the team was heading for a tipping point regardless of INEOS, we’ve signed so much dross and had such a poor group of players on huge wages that eventually it was going to catch up with us.

However they have been a disaster with managers and that has massively inflated the problem. It was an absolute no brainer to sack ETH despite winning the Cup, hiring Amorim just hasn’t worked from the start or at any stage and he’s somehow still here.

These decisions have made a bad situation a lot worse and it’s just compounded by every game that Amorim is allowed to continue.
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Agree they should have let ETH go a few month earlier than they did but alone that isn't some sliding doors moment. How many games did ETH get last season? 10? It's not something mammoth, unrecoverable decision.

Amorim hasn't worked out but as has been pointed out almost every big club out there is sacking managers every 18 month. They're all getting it wrong consistently. Because getting the right manager is really hard.

And I'd point out, lots and lots were happy with Amorim getting the job. This wasn't some out there appointment that had everyone scratching their heads.
 
Oo0AahCantona said:
When you look at recent sliding doors moments, failing to keep to the Ralf Rangnick consultant role has fecked us, he didnt work as a manager but everythings tructually he said was correct and has turned out correct, even the future players he highlighted should be coming to united.
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Yeah booting him and Ashworth was treason, just because the pair of them weren't club yes men like they wanted
 
Our fans won’t turn on the manager so they have to target Ratcliffe and Berrada. Nothing nasty but let them know we’ve had enough & we are pinning this shitshow on them.
 
Marwood said:
I'm no expert on everything going on behind the scenes but I think transfers have improved. You said yourself they've got rid of 20 players and largely they needed to go. I like a bunch of the players signed. Training ground improvement. Seem to have stabilised finances. I don't know if the individuals are good enough but they've put the management structure so many wanted in place.

The way you describe you'd think they took over a pretty stable club.

Look at the trend. We were freefalling when they came in. Things were getting worse under ETH.

Everything you've said about them was said about the Glazers. Make your mind up which one has "torn the club apart."



Agree they should have let ETH go a few month earlier than they did but alone that isn't some sliding doors moment. How many games did ETH get last season? 10? It's not something mammoth, unrecoverable decision.

Amorim hasn't worked out but as has been pointed out almost every big club out there is sacking managers every 18 month. They're all getting it wrong consistently. Because getting the right manager is really hard.

And I'd point out, lots and lots were happy with Amorim getting the job. This wasn't some out there appointment that had everyone scratching their heads.
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It is a sliding door moment though. It impacts transfers, preseason, who is available to replace ETH midseason.

If they’d sacked ETH and employed almost anyone it’s hard to argue we wouldn’t be better off. They made a big mess of the ETH situation and their solution has been a disaster. It’s the very definition of a sliding door moment.

Appointing managers isn’t easy but it’s not an excuse for this mess. They’ve made bad choices and are now persisting with Amorim for too long and they have to take the responsibility for that.
 
croadyman said:
Yeah booting him and Ashworth was treason, just because the pair of them weren't club yes men like they wanted
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Firing Ashworth wasn't the wrong move, but hiring him absolutely was.

By the time he was belatedly hired by United, Ashworth agreed the manager should be sacked and new play style initiated. Players needed to be sold and bought or, as we know it as, the painfully obvious.

When asked for personnel to meet these arrant specifications, Ashworth referred United to third-party data agencies. He expected to be paid millions to refer his employers to his old business contacts, so they could provide answers for the job he's been paid millions to perform.

As for RR, his 'open-heart surgery' quote should not be allowed to gloss his own failure as temporary manager, no matter the accuracy. He was terrible, with Amorim levels of tactical intransigence, and completely reliant on an aged Ronaldo.

The idea it was 'treason' to lose those two is a ludicrous one, especially in Ashworth's case.
 
Red Ten said:
Our fans won’t turn on the manager so they have to target Ratcliffe and Berrada. Nothing nasty but let them know we’ve had enough & we are pinning this shitshow on them.
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They will just ignore the protests anyway
 
Red Ten said:
Our fans won’t turn on the manager so they have to target Ratcliffe and Berrada. Nothing nasty but let them know we’ve had enough & we are pinning this shitshow on them.
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I can't see SJR or Berrada as caring much. Both have set a target of making Europe and winning the league by a certain date and will likely proceed with whichever option they think will get them from point a to point b.
 
Raoul said:
I can't see SJR or Berrada as caring much. Both have set a target of making Europe and winning the league by a certain date and will likely proceed with whichever option they think will get them from point a to point b.
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Yeah Ratcliffe couldn't care less
 
ZorinGorilla said:
Firing Ashworth wasn't the wrong move, but hiring him absolutely was.

By the time he was belatedly hired by United, Ashworth agreed the manager should be sacked and new play style initiated. Players needed to be sold and bought or, as we know it as, the painfully obvious.

When asked for personnel to meet these arrant specifications, Ashworth referred United to third-party data agencies. He expected to be paid millions to refer his employers to his old business contacts, so they could provide answers for the job he's been paid millions to perform.

As for RR, his 'open-heart surgery' quote should not be allowed to gloss his own failure as temporary manager, no matter the accuracy. He was terrible, with Amorim levels of tactical intransigence, and completely reliant on an aged Ronaldo.

The idea it was 'treason' to lose those two is a ludicrous one, especially in Ashworth's case.
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You mentioned third party data agencies without noting that the reason for this was because our in-house data analysis wasn't up to scratch yet. It's not something thrown out in isolation just because Ashworth wanted money for his friends as you are alluding to.
 
roseguy64 said:
You mentioned third party data agencies without noting that the reason for this was because our in-house data analysis wasn't up to scratch yet. It's not something thrown out in isolation just because Ashworth wanted money for his friends as you are alluding to.
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No, I was aware of such. Ratcliffe did not trust Ashworth to get this sorted out, either, and why would he?

From a previous post by @Flawless Victory

The recruitment team at Liverpool/Brighton/Brentford has both proprietary data and individuals with a deep personal knowledge of how to interpret data from private companies that sell it, Ashworth has neither. SJR has made it clear this is an area which needs a complete overhaul and quickly concluded that Ashworth was the wrong guy to do it. If Ashworth was the right guy to turn United around then why haven't any of the top teams around Europe hired him?

DJ_21 said:
Ye we should..: the guy obviously knows what he’s doing but wasn’t trusted
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Aye, he knew what he was doing, alright.
 
ZorinGorilla said:
No, I was aware of such. Ratcliffe did not trust Ashworth to get this sorted out, either, and why would he?

From a previous post by @Flawless Victory

The recruitment team at Liverpool/Brighton/Brentford has both proprietary data and individuals with a deep personal knowledge of how to interpret data from private companies that sell it, Ashworth has neither. SJR has made it clear this is an area which needs a complete overhaul and quickly concluded that Ashworth was the wrong guy to do it. If Ashworth was the right guy to turn United around then why haven't any of the top teams around Europe hired him?



Aye, he knew what he was doing, alright.
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What happened to your old account?
 
Raoul said:
I can't see SJR or Berrada as caring much. Both have set a target of making Europe and winning the league by a certain date and will likely proceed with whichever option they think will get them from point a to point b.
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SJR does care. He said this in the interview with Neville. Didn't like what he read about himself in the papers, and said sometimes you wonder if its worth it, or smth similar.
 
ZorinGorilla said:
No, I was aware of such. Ratcliffe did not trust Ashworth to get this sorted out, either, and why would he?

From a previous post by @Flawless Victory

The recruitment team at Liverpool/Brighton/Brentford has both proprietary data and individuals with a deep personal knowledge of how to interpret data from private companies that sell it, Ashworth has neither. SJR has made it clear this is an area which needs a complete overhaul and quickly concluded that Ashworth was the wrong guy to do it. If Ashworth was the right guy to turn United around then why haven't any of the top teams around Europe hired him?



Aye, he knew what he was doing, alright.
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The thing that is completely going over peoples heads is that Ashworth had just arrived at the club and the transfer window was upon him. He had no time to structure the scouting and wasn't even given the option to bring in a chief of scout of his own choosing. DoFs need a full season to implement a strategy. And that strategy is implemented via a direction that is then passed down to the the recruitment team which isn't led by data analytics but rather people who have a expertise in identifying talent via the eye. Liverpool were not led by data analytics when it came to recruitment but rather their recruitment was led by Barry Hunter and Dave Fallows who led the recruitment as thier chief scout and Head of recruitment respectively. This has been confirmed by their then DoF Michael Edwards who led the football structure and said 'contrary to what has been said in the media, our recruitment is not led by data'.

Data provides incremental advantages if you first know how you want to go about developing the team. This is something that has been confirmed by Lee Dykes at Brentford. At Liverpool it was Klopp's blueprint that they followed where it was clear that they started targeting players who would raise the levels as far as developing a system of play that had build up abilities from deeper along with strong abilities to extinguish the threat in transiton. This then creates the foundation for Jurgen Klopp to sacrifice defensive stability for goals by playing the game in the opponent's half. Then the high press and counter press also becomes a real weapon to use against the opposition to pin them in their own half.

Data can then help you if you first know how you want to play otherwise it's like looking for a needle in a haystack hence players like Ugarte have ended up here because his out of possession metrics looked good but those metrics were him playing in games where he was defending in lower to midblocks where he was defending in small spaces but his out of possession game in a higher defensive block was not good enough.

We are not in this situation because we don't have high level data analytics but rather the biggest gains are made when first understanding how you want to play. And that means understanding how we will first initiate attacks by overcoming the opponent's press and implementing a higher defensive line which will then create the environment to overload the opponent's half and hence play the game in the opponent's half with the high press and counter press then being additional weapons. You then apply the data after all this understood and the criteria is then set for the data analytics to follow.

How anyone can blame Ashworth who wasn't given the opportunity to even make a single change to the structure he was brought into lead and was only at the club 5 minutes is completely wrong.
 
It’s a disgrace that this new ownership and management team has plunged us further into the abyss from an already low level.
The fact that Rooney and Gary Neville have come out this week and directly called the manager and the club out shows how even the ex-players are ringing the alarm bells.
 
Abhinav said:
It’s a disgrace that this new ownership and management team has plunged us further into the abyss from an already low level.
The fact that Rooney and Gary Neville have come out this week and directly called the manager and the club out shows how even the ex-players are ringing the alarm bells.
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Past United players are always calling us out.
 
Even Woody would have got rid by now.

Judging by the reaction and commentary since then game, feels like our inept board are the only ones on the planet who think he shouldn't be sacked... Which isn't a great situation for us!
 
Abhinav said:
Not really. Neville is usually reluctant to call for a manager sacking and so is Rio. Both have been quite direct in going after the manager.
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Which only emphasises how bad Amorim has been when even top red Gaz can't find a reason to defend him.

Neville probably can't believe there's a manager who is so bad he's making his spell at Valencia look decent by comparison
 
ZorinGorilla said:
Firing Ashworth wasn't the wrong move, but hiring him absolutely was.

By the time he was belatedly hired by United, Ashworth agreed the manager should be sacked and new play style initiated. Players needed to be sold and bought or, as we know it as, the painfully obvious.

When asked for personnel to meet these arrant specifications, Ashworth referred United to third-party data agencies. He expected to be paid millions to refer his employers to his old business contacts, so they could provide answers for the job he's been paid millions to perform.

As for RR, his 'open-heart surgery' quote should not be allowed to gloss his own failure as temporary manager, no matter the accuracy. He was terrible, with Amorim levels of tactical intransigence, and completely reliant on an aged Ronaldo.

The idea it was 'treason' to lose those two is a ludicrous one, especially in Ashworth's case.
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Didnt Ashworth do that though because our own data was shit and out of date? Ashworth wasn't a yes man. It was reported there were disagreements and SJR didn't think he fitted in. Ashworth probably gave some home truths and exposed SJR, Wilcox and Berrada as not knowing what they are doing - which has come to pass.

Ralph wasn't a manager when we hired him, he hadn't been for years. He was a successful DoF. He only agreed to manage us for the job upstairs. Judging him on what he did as manager feels a little unfair. He would have achieved a lot more for us if he was allowed to take what he learnt first hand and applied it in his consultancy role as originally agreed.

I'm almost certain if both were allowed to do the role they were meant to do we would be in a much better position than we are now.
 
I think we as a club might owe Woodward an apology. Yes he had his flaws and wasted a lot of money but he left in February 2022. What has happened since he left has been monumentally bad.

For all his faults, looking back we can at least say he hired good managers. LVG, Jose and Ole were his managerial appointments and all three had us competing in the CL regularly or at least going far in the EL. Sure it wasn’t quite the achievements of Sir Alex days but we were always competitive.

He signed a lot of flops but the two summers after he left probably saw the biggest waste of money on players we’ve ever had.

Between Murtough/Arnold and INEOS/Berrarda/Wilcox what we’ve seen since he left is an abomination.

Woodward was awful at creating a strategy for on pitch performance but the managers he brought in were proven or in Ole’s case knew what he wanted to achieve and had to tools to achieve it. The clowns we’ve appointed since have just been terrible and aren’t even able to get the best out of players.
 
The Firestarter said:
SJR does care. He said this in the interview with Neville. Didn't like what he read about himself in the papers, and said sometimes you wonder if its worth it, or smth similar.
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If it's not worth it can always sell up to someone else
 
ENEOS has managed to bring-forth a team of inexperienced personnel from the CEO all the way to the coaching team.

I stand to be corrected but no one in the senior management team has more than 3 years of experience in the role they currently have at United. They definitely have a lot of experience in the footballing areas but they just recently changed/converted roles. So our CEO is an inexperienced CEO, same with the DOF and all the recruits from City.

On top of the senior management being inexperienced, we went and hired a very inexperienced coaching team. Everyone is learning on the job and it’s not an ideal situation to be in for such a big organisation.

I have no doubt that the team is working very hard to turn this situation around but I do feel that the whole setup is just not correct. There’s no one who can fallback into their experience and past wins to galvanise the team to turn things around.

The same way we don’t have a leader on the field who will punch above his weight to drag the team from the pit when things are not going right, we have the same issue in our senior management team and coaching team.

I honestly do feel for everyone involved in the process but something needs to change.

The coaching team has already been burnt with the fans and media, they need to be cut loose to ensure that the senior management team lives to fight another day. If this doesn’t happen quickly then the whole team including ENEOS will go down with the ship.
 
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Adnan said:
How anyone can blame Ashworth who wasn't given the opportunity to even make a single change to the structure he was brought into lead and was only at the club 5 minutes is completely wrong.
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Ashworth wasn't precisely sacked after 'five minutes', he had five months in the role after being headhunted (wrongly) for another five months. His clamouring to leave Newcastle is a good indicator of his loyalty, too.

DJ_21 said:
Seems like you have an agenda against him
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I accept I could be wrong about the man, just utterly sick and tired of chancers and wastrels being re-evaluated as saviours in the heat of bad results. It sets a troublesome precedent.

Had a full on row with a mate about how Fred was not some misunderstood genius the other day. The counter-argument is always the same: 'he'd walk into our team now' as if that's something to aspire to!

El Jefe said:
I think we as a club might owe Woodward an apology.
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See what I mean?

astracrazy said:
Ashworth probably gave some home truths and exposed SJR, Wilcox and Berrada as not knowing what they are doing - which has come to pass.

I'm almost certain if both were allowed to do the role they were meant to do we would be in a much better position than we are now.
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I think the 'home truths' you allude to never happened.

Frankly, the Ashworth/Woodward/'Ralf' love-in is just a stick to beat Ineos with. Fair enough, they deserve it, but there's zero evidence of serious improvement from your championed.

As for the highlighted, we'd be in a 'better position' finishing like EtH did.
 
astracrazy said:
Didnt Ashworth do that though because our own data was shit and out of date? Ashworth wasn't a yes man. It was reported there were disagreements and SJR didn't think he fitted in. Ashworth probably gave some home truths and exposed SJR, Wilcox and Berrada as not knowing what they are doing - which has come to pass.

Ralph wasn't a manager when we hired him, he hadn't been for years. He was a successful DoF. He only agreed to manage us for the job upstairs. Judging him on what he did as manager feels a little unfair. He would have achieved a lot more for us if he was allowed to take what he learnt first hand and applied it in his consultancy role as originally agreed.

I'm almost certain if both were allowed to do the role they were meant to do we would be in a much better position than we are now.
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100% true, If Ralf got control on 850M we spent in last 4 years, we could have got far better players for sure.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
Even Woody would have got rid by now.

Judging by the reaction and commentary since then game, feels like our inept board are the only ones on the planet who think he shouldn't be sacked... Which isn't a great situation for us!
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It is completely unsustainable. There can't be any belief in the club he can turn this round, it could get really uncomfortable on Saturday if the performance is poor yet again.

I don't know what the club are expecting to happen from here. Inaction is the same as bad action at this point.
 
ZorinGorilla said:
Ashworth wasn't precisely sacked after 'five minutes', he had five months in the role after being headhunted (wrongly) for another five months. His clamouring to leave Newcastle is a good indicator of his loyalty, too.
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He starts officially in the role of the DoF in July 2024, and from what we know he isn't even allowed to make a single change to the structure he's brought into develop.

Of course one would want to leave Newcastle to join a much bigger and glamorous club. Whether that's players, managers or a DoF.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
Even Woody would have got rid by now.

Judging by the reaction and commentary since then game, feels like our inept board are the only ones on the planet who think he shouldn't be sacked... Which isn't a great situation for us!
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They are the only ones in theory who could be concerned with how sacking him would reflect on their competence
 
Adnan said:
He starts officially in the role of the DoF in July 2024, and from what we know he isn't even allowed to make a single change to the structure he's brought into develop.
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Could this be so because his ideas were underwhelming, obvious and, perhaps, counter-productive?

Saying 'yeah but look at the current mess' isn't evidence of improvement on Ashworth's part, the way it so infuriatingly is blithely taken to be.

Bobby_2024 said:
100% true, If Ralf got control on 850M we spent in last 4 years, we could have got far better players for sure.
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Only if 'Ralf' wasn't managing them.
Devil_forever said:
All of this is down to ETH getting that new contract and Amorim’s reign. A competent manager and that stat drastically changes.
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Sorry, who is this 'competent manager'?

'Someone who...' and 'not Amorim' aren't the required answer, and it seems like it's as far as Ineos/Ashworth/Ralf/Woodward have or hadn't the notion.

giggs-beckham said:
They (Ineos) are the only ones in theory who could be concerned with how sacking him would reflect on their competence
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In fairness, that's more a damning indictment of Woodward et al.
 
giggs-beckham said:
They are the only ones in theory who could be concerned with how sacking him would reflect on their competence
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It’s gone past that point now though, not sacking him/how much longer it takes to sack him is now the bigger reflection of their competence.

The mood has shifted now in the media and the result this weekend should be irrelevant to Amorim’s future. If they aren’t already lining up his replacement and ready to pull the trigger then something is seriously wrong.
 
giggs-beckham said:
That seems counter productive. Make 1 managerial mistake, youre out.
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The thing it isn't just one mistake this leadership made.

They extended EtH's contract when it was clear he should be going.
They brought in Amorim mid season despite he himself didn't want that and therefore did write off last season. Ashworth was sacked over this.
They didn't sack Amorim when it was clear he wasn't going anywhere with this team in the summer.

One mistake can happen and shouldn't get you fired. But these are three manager and one DoF mistakes in a row.
 
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