And what is the size of our global fan base estimated to be ? Just thinking if everyone threw a tener in …..
Club ownership | Senior management team talk
- Thread starter golden_blunder
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If Jesus or Buddha had the billions to buy, there would still be some that would bitch about it. The reality we have to face is that United, or most PL clubs, is too expensive to buy, operate or own. There are only a select few in a rarefied air that can afford it anywhere in the world. Based on such a small sample size, the chances are they are financial, tech or oil/sovereign fund/billionaires.
I think it's just a pointless exercise to try & hope for some decent oral leader/owner. They are all cnuts coming from our plebish perspective because that's how the world is moving. The few owning a disproportionate percentage of global assets.
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A tenner? You must be rich. I can throw in a couple of quid after I sell off a few items/heirlooms.
I agree.
He likely speaks for a silent minority of people who feel the same I would imagine.
In this instance, if he can control himself, saying nothing, concentrating on football and letting the moral focus stay elsewhere (think Andrew Windsor) should get him in the clear.
They're definitely not silent. You only have to open a newspaper, turn on the radio look at social media or enter a Wetherspoon to know people who espouse those views are neither under-represented nor silent. It's the most over-represented opinion that there is.
In a country with an aging population and low birth-rate it's surprising just how little counter to those arguments are ever presented. Immigration being 'bad' seems to be as close to a consensus that this country seems to be about anything. He's untroubled by the non-natives - such as himself - that hold residence in places like Monaco because he (and they) only ever mean people with brown skin
It's not just about finances though is it. It's about how we live together, how we co exist. Ultimately we don't really co exist. We have areas for one group of people and areas for the other group of people. We just live around each other and that's not particularly great.
But I am always amazed at how bad public figures are at discussing immigration. Jim obviously is a smart guy but immigration as a topic seems to override the brain. Not so much his stance but how he and others express it.
Re the bit in bold, this isn't really true. As I've said before in this discussion. If you walked into pretty much any, village, town or city today, you would see people from all cultures/religions/ethnicities just getting along. Even if the people in these places that probably see some of their views as similar to those of Ratcliffe will presumably not be that arsed with 95% of the immigrants they see on a daily basis. It's just the reality of life.
Re the second point, this has been the case for the last 25 years. The Overton window has moved so far to the right on this topic that anyone who's response has the basic "treat immigrants and refugees with a basic level of compassion" is treated like a crazy leftie who wants complete open borders.
That's where we work. Where we have no choice but to mix.
What about where we live, where we socialise? Which is a choice.
There are clearly divided areas. It's an uncomfortable truth.
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The majority who feel that way and are aligned with him are quite vocal which is evident in many places.
I said he speaks for a silent monitory who are the ones that align to his views but don’t say anything publicly.
Maybe it's just me but I live on the same road as a number of Polish families who have moved to Manchester at various points, a Muslim family who moved from Pakistan 10 years ago and a family originally from Jamaica. The "born and bred" Brits near me have no issues. I'd hazard a guess that it's similar in most working class areas in the UK.
My local church has families that have come from all over the world.
I regularly go to the match with lads who moved from India, China, Pakistan and South Korea for Uni and never left.
Outside of the extremists from all cultures, people get on OK. Stories of division have been fed to us via the media and being exploited by the far right.
Hope this never goes away and he's forced to sell his shares, the cnut.
I think opinions are shaped by where you were born and grew up.
I was born in Oldham and what I'd say is your street isn't symbolic of the overall situation. There are big distinctive areas that are seperated from each other in terms of demographics. Unspoken divisions. Manchester is exactly like this.
It's pretty embarassing for humans. We've been around for hundreds of thousands of years and still prefer to stick to "our own".
Your church is the same. It's for people of your faith I'm assuming?
Have you read the Caf before?
I just don't see what you've experienced and I've lived across Greater Manchester since the early 90s.
I did go to school in Oldham during the riots there. I saw the impact that media driven fear had on the community. I saw what happens when the need for calm is ignored and replaced with incitement from people from both sides.
I also saw community leaders from all "sides" come together in the aftermath when far right hooligans that had been bussed in from different parts of the country had gone home.
Again, I'm not saying my areas or other are havens of multi culturalism and idealistic living just that there's no real conflict in the day to day lives of ordinary people. The people that want to keep themselves to themselves do exactly that but most others are quite to happy to mix with people of different religions and ethnicities. Again, this is just reality and completely at odds with the narrative from some politicians (see also debate about "Khan's" London.)
It's basically impossible to "stick to our own" in Greater Manchester when the entire area is what it is.
It's why the comments from Ratcliffe have, for the most part, been slated by pretty much every sane person in the area. Even people who aren't uber lefties or whatever see Ratcliffe’s view as incompatible with what they witness and experience on a daily basis.
I think the colonisation part and the incorrect figures have been slated and rightly so. I don't think he's really commented on day to day life for that to be criticised.
If he got the stats right and just generally talked about how do we cope with high immigration levels I don't think there would have been a problem.
Agree with you on there not being much actual conflict but the unspoken divide is there nonetheless.
If you know Oldham you know there are white areas and there are muslim areas. This can't be denied.
Again no actual conflict as such but equally no real integration. Two groups of people keeping themselves seperate from each other wherever possible. Even without direct conflict this isn't how a town should be.
No one side is to blame and I've no clue what the remedy for that division would be but denying it exists only exacerbates the issue.
Thats the case in every country and for every socio and economic group. We have areas for low income, middle income, high income and the ultra wealthy but you wouldn’t say those “groups don’t coexist they just live around each other”. It’s only when it’s race that people think “ohhh look different areas so no coexistence” but I would argue working class areas that may appear to have racial segregation actually coexist more together than you realise. Eg share same facilities, shop in same supermarkets, that’s why you actually notice each other because you coexist. On the contrary how often do you see millionaire that lives in a £20m house? I’d argue unless if you live some parts of London, very rarely if at all.
Are you talking about billionaires and the rest of us? Agree, it's not great.
So my point is there's a voluntary segregation based on culture and ethnicity and that should be addressed. As it's not a good place for a town to be in and denial of it serves no purpose.
Should we just ignore it because it's also true that only wealthy people can afford to live in wealthy areas?
So few billionaires exist this is irrelevant. There's about 150 in the country. How they assimilate is neither here nor there in terms of day to day life.
Thomas Zilliacus that you?
There's a trend of white people in areas with ethnic enclaves voting for right wing politicians. That's my main worry. But to pander to anti-immigration sentiment as a solution is a rabbit hole I don't want the country to go down. I'd prefer we make every effort to bridge people and communities. People do still coexist even though it's not a uniform spread and if anything the UK is a success story of multiculturalism. Britain basically always been multicultural and multiethnic, it's not a new phenomenon. I think the problems are often overstated because people are pissed about the NHS, cost of living, and so on, and the right wing like to jump on immigrants being the cause. Enclaves can exacerbate the issue because of cultural isolation.
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Nope
He speaks for the silent najority.
Im an immigrant. Lived in uk for 40 years. But there is a difference between immigration like in the 80s and the mass migration we have now. The fabric of the UK has been destroyed. There is less social cohesion, less togetherness and community. Some areas have ethnic majorities and London will probably be one of them soon.
I voted with my feet and emigrated to Australia. I can honestly say its so much better here. UK has gone downhill so much in so many ways.
Ratcliff is right. The left just cant swallow it.
The horror!
I'm not sure where you live in Australia but we are a nation of migrants. You (and me) included.
Yep, high number of Irish emigrate every year Australia and with it being so close to Asia there is naturally a high number of Asians too. Perhaps he has housed himself in a predominantly white neighborhood but he should look around how many British and Irish there are because they are immigrants too
Italians, Greeks and all sorts of others as well.
Ironically twice as many people as a % of population were born overseas in Australia as in the UK. Approx 15/16% vs 31/32%.
The UK's population grows by about 0.3% of total poplation due to migration every year currently, but in Australia the figure is over 1%.
So he has migrated for the second time to be with even more of the migrants he seems to dislike so much. Does that count as self hate?
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As the child of Irish immigrants who came over here in the 50s I think many immigrants add immeasurable benefits to England. I think where I differ in opinion is my parents either worked the day after they arrived, spent their savings or relied on friends until they got themselves sorted. Many returned to Ireland quickly as these options didn’t materialise. There were no benefit hand outs or government support for self proclaimed “natives”to feel aggrieved about. They got a rough enough time without it. No Blacks, no Dogs, no Irish etc. You can’t have a bankrupt country which England is, having people coming in removing from a pot they are yet to contribute to. In a perfect world you can and should, with the view they will repay once settled but it’s too late a scenario for a broke country to make that work!! I think it’s not their arrival, it’s the crux of the matter of freebies at the taxpayers expense that immigration is even a contentious topic.
Why do you think immigrants have anything to do with the UK going downhill, rather than many years of poor policy decisions?
Decades of short termist mismanagement can explain why so many people are on benefits, the NHS is in crisis, there are not enough houses, and so on.
This "destroyed fabric of the UK" you speak about is also a failure of policy - we should have been doing more to integrate communities. Contact reduces prejudice. I also think to call it destroyed is a massive exaggeration.
Don't you think it's a bit hypocritical to moan about immigration when you emigrated yourself? Or is it one rule for you and another for others?
It's mostly a myth though. Access to benefits is very limited for several years for immigrants here with the vast majority getting nothing and those that do get something are outweighed by the contributions of others. People don't just come in and start getting benefits. Asylum seekers get a very small grant which makes up less than 0.2% of the welfare system. If they're granted asylum, which can take years, they get access to UC, but they only make up 1.5% of claimants. The whole thing is really overblown.
Would you also demand to break up predominantly Jewish, Polish or Ukrainian areas?
I've lived in cities with 'voluntary segregation' and it's usually anything but voluntary and more a result of wealth. That said cultures do gravitate inwards and there's nothing wrong with that, it does no harm does it? Why is it actually an issue to you? What is so scary about people of another culture living next door to one another?
I can understand why those who find themselves a minority in their area might suddenly dislike it but that's a very small niche issue.
Yeah it's a shame none of the big tech giants are interested in getting involved with Football, think the nearest was Spotify guy trying to buy Arsenal
Interesting point. I think what has changed with the recent waves of immigrants is that increasingly they live in their own community bubble. Their own shops, their own language, their own way of speaking or slang, their food, their social network, their music, their values, their culture and thinking, their own little community as it were. With immigration, there comes a tipping point, whereby if the immigration minority starts increasing in number, they feels comfortable within their own community (as it feels like "home") and unlike earlier immigrants, does not feel the need or desire to integrate with the original country's culture, social norms and community.
What this leads to is that the native populace would feel excluded and increasingly alienated with the new wave of immigrants. And if this tide is not stemmed or reduced, the native population would feel like they have become the immigrants instead and that they have to adapt to the immigrant's culture instead. Therefore, people feel threatened or distrustful of the new immigrants, as it appears that they are being coerced to integrate with the new immigrants instead of the other way round.
Imagine you are a homeowner who welcomes foreign guests to stay at your home. At first, it was nice understanding their culture, food, religion and language.
Imagine that for some hypothetical reason one day you are compelled to take on dozens or more foreign guests to your home. Suddenly, you are being forced to conform to their dietary requirements, their religious norms, speak in their terms, have rules based on their rules, etc. Your home does not feel like yours anymore. Doesn't sound right does it?
There is nothing wrong with learning and understanding and respecting another race's culture, social norms and religion, etc. The point is to have respectful boundaries between each culture. But being forced to conform to an immigration population's social norms is what most people are not comfortable with.
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I don’t think it’s as bad as people make it out to be. I see mixed ethnic groups all the time, be they work colleagues on break or at night socialising. But at the same time you can’t force friendships or mutual interests and I don’t believe that “coexisting” means every barbecue has to be mixed. It’s normal that people will make friends with 1) people they grew up with 2) people they went to college uni /with 3) people they work with 4) people they meet doing hobbies and activities.
The first tends to be build the strongest friendships and be less diverse, with the exception of London, then the rest usually tends to establish more diverse but usually less strong friendships.
I’m very sorry to hear this. Whereabouts are you based? I completely agree that it’s awful if you have been forced to start praying 5 times a day, speak Polish, wear a Sikh Turban, become a vegetarian who can’t eat meet, and take up Azonto dancing.
Where do I sign up?
Australia is pretty multi-cultural tbf, especially Sydney and Melbourne and now parts of QLD and SA. I do think most migrants there buy into the Australian way of life though, work culture is very relaxed (I was in mgmt. consulting at a firm there after migrating there for higher ed - much more chilled out compared NY, London, Dubai, Singapore etc.) so that gives you time to focus on family and relationships. We had a mix of cultures at our firm, and I thought we all got along fine - people from similar ethnicities tended to live in the same suburbs for sure, but that didn't stop people from making friendships outside their usual communities at work and hanging out.
I myself moved out of Aus a few years ago to come back to my home country but I still keep in touch with my friends over there - from South Africa, Ireland, India, Fiji, China, US, UAE, Lebanon, Sri Lanka etc. in addition to those who'd been born in Australia (I also went to university with many people from bum-feck Australia who were on scholarships - got along fine!).
Heck, our old weed dealer in college was a big Lebo dude who came from a pretty traditional Muslim family - we used to drop by his place and have lunch with his Jiddo and Teta
Can't say no to a good barbie, a pub-crawl and a bit of cricket over there!It’s almost as if Thatcher and Blair never existed, and almost as if the pakistanis and polish had more say in British policies in the last 40 years than good old british lords and MPs.
I severely underestimated the power of imported seasoned food on nation’s downfall.
It’s also funny you speak of Australia as some sort of haven knowing how the country was founded and the indigenous blood that was spilled to accommodate it’s immigration