Club ownership | Senior management team talk

VP89 said:
Our first choice XI has De Ligt if he didn't have the back problem.

Just like we played Yoro and Heaven when Martinez was out.

You can't use mental gymnastics and cherry pick when to apply the "he's injured" argument.
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I’m not. I’m basing my opinion on the evidence. De Ligt might be first choice he might not. We have no evidence that he will be or when he will return.

That brings us back to my original and only point. Our first choice back four is what it was four years ago. That is indisputable fact. Instead of accepting that, you have been creating false arguments and attributed things to me that I didn’t say.
 
acnumber9 said:
I’m not. I’m basing my opinion on the evidence. De Ligt might be first choice. We have no evidence that he will be or when he will return. That brings us back to my original and only point. Our first choice back four is what it was four years ago. That is indisputable fact. Instead of accepting that, you have been creating false arguments and attributed things to me that I didn’t say.
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No you're not. You're being obtuse.

De Ligt without his injury was one of the best CBs in the league and comfortably the best in our team.

You are saying a pre injury de ligt is not a starters is that right?
 
Highfather_24 said:
You just get the feeling that we will drop out of CL, Carrick gets scacepgoated and sacked, and they bring in a new manager and spend big again next summer to get back into CL. Rinse and repeat.

This was the golden opportunity to really strengthen and consolidate a top 3-4 place. Would have been better for the club financially long term too.

But they were too risk averse. Too afraid to make mistakes. They chickened out.
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Pretty much this, albeit if Carrick finished 6th I can see him retaining his job for Berrarda and Wilcox to save face.

Pretty clear one of the deciding factors on Carrick's appointment, was that he would be easier to dampen on transfer spend/expectation than a top manager.

Likewise this thinking also played into Amorim's sacking. Say what you want about the guy, the club didn't sack him due to results, it was due to disagreement on reinforcing the team. Right conclusion, wrong justification in my book.

Think we are in for a difficult season, we really only need a long term injury at LB to be totally exposed. Criminal that has been allowed.

Will be very interesting if a dividend is declared in the new year.
 
golden_blunder said:
This only looks at the defense side, my main gripe with shaw, and Maz for that matter is their lack of offensive input. They slow attacks down and we lose that explosive edge
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Maz is an every average player. He brings nothing to the team. I don’t get the love in. He is not bad at defending but is so slow and uninspiring. Dalot is much better even if we can improve on him.
 
VP89 said:
No you're not. You're being obtuse.

De Ligt without his injury was one of the best CBs in the league and comfortably the best in our team.

You are saying a pre injury de ligt is not a starters is that right?
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No, I am basing what I said on currently available evidence.

We have no idea whether De Ligt will start as first choice for a variety of reasons. We don’t know Carrick’s opinion, we don’t know when he will be back and we don’t know the standard he will be able to perform at. What we do know is who Carrick has regularly picked. It’s the same back four.

Even if YOU want to continue being obtuse and substitute De Ligt in, that means it is 75% of our defence rather than 100%. Instead of focussing on why even the best case scenario is still a legitimate concern, you want to argue nothing and make up things I haven’t said. You can carry on your strawmen arguments and blind defence of the owners with somebody else now.
 
acnumber9 said:
No, I am basing what I said on currently available evidence.

We have no idea whether De Ligt will start as first choice for a variety of reasons. We don’t know Carrick’s opinion, we don’t know when he will be back and we don’t know the standard he will be able to perform at. What we do know is who Carrick has regularly picked. It’s the same back four.

Even if YOU want to continue being obtuse and substitute De Ligt in, that means it is 75% of our defence rather than 100%. Instead of focussing on why even the best case scenario is still a legitimate concern, you want to argue nothing and make up things I haven’t said. You can carry on your strawmen arguments and blind defence of the owners with somebody else now.
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I'm not talking of his injury because I caveated injury free.

Injury free de ligt is quite obviously clear of what we have. If you think that's debatable then we can end the discussion. We all know how great he was before his injuries so it's a bit laughable to suggest otherwise.

I'm actually focusing on your point, which was that our first choice back four is the same as 2022. De ligt with no injury, fully fit makes this so your hypothetical unchanged comment goes in the bin.

What was the point you wanted to make from that, that we didn't bother to address it? Is that it?

Why do you think this back 4 is a problem? Do you think it has a track record of conceding a lot under Carrick?
 
lilcurt said:
Pretty much this, albeit if Carrick finished 6th I can see him retaining his job for Berrarda and Wilcox to save face.

Pretty clear one of the deciding factors on Carrick's appointment, was that he would be easier to dampen on transfer spend/expectation than a top manager.

Likewise this thinking also played into Amorim's sacking. Say what you want about the guy, the club didn't sack him due to results, it was due to disagreement on reinforcing the team. Right conclusion, wrong justification in my book.

Think we are in for a difficult season, we really only need a long term injury at LB to be totally exposed. Criminal that has been allowed.

Will be very interesting if a dividend is declared in the new year.
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Its the usual penny wise, pound foolish nonsense i expect from both the glazers and ineos.

They want to finish in the champions league places but at the lowest possible cost but that obviously increases the chance we don't finish in the cl places and also reduces our capability to progress far in competitions.

The real kick in the teeth is we are still run by people who are a long way from best in class. If we 150m was our budget we could have still got 3 good midfielders and a left back with cannier operators in charge. Sangare instead of baleba would have saved us a significant transfer fee, as would chema instead of santos and its not like they are obvious downgrades
 
Bobby_2024 said:
Yes we bought few defenders in last 4 years like Martinez,Yoro,Deligt and Maz
Question is how many of them can walk into top teams? I would say only an injury prone Martinez has some chance.
so why can't be addressed this rather prolonging with same thing for years.

You are well aware, Shaw and Dalot playing most of the games wont take this team anywhere near trophies
Yoro and Heaven are not ready which leaves injury prone Deligt and Martinez.
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The better “question” (we already know the answer) is would Shaw, Maguire and Dalot have been kept around for so long at the clubs we’re supposed to be competing for league positions with on a yearly basis.
 
Steve Bruce said:
Its evident to me that Jim bought united to show off to his mates and to further increase his public profile.

He says he's a lifelong united fan but alot of the decisions he's made to me goes against what a united fan would do eg pulling the ex players charity fund.

But then if I were in Sir Jim's shoes I wouldn't have given the glazers a lifeline in the first place, it would have been an all or nothing takeover, not give them a pile of cash and keep control of the club
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He clearly couldn't afford to buy the club outright so should have done right thing and walked on past. Sorry but he will never be forgiven for given these yankee leeches a lifeline to stay at this club.
 
Someone said:
Leadership is just learning the wrong lessons from the past. Getting good deals is fine, but it doesn't mean that every expensive player will fail. At the end of the day, the only reason we got Baleba at a better price than last year is because he had a terrible season, otherwise, he would've been another £100m+ player. If Lewis Hall plays well again this season, he'll be another player we won't be able to afford.

Yes, spending money doesn't guarantee anything, but it sure as hell delivered trophies to Arsenal and City, even when they made mistakes.

We have ownership that lacks ambition and isn't willing to put any money into the club. Ultimately, if we continue not challenging for anything and being in and out of Europe on a regular basis, the value of the club will diminish. Meanwhile, the vampires are happy to squeeze every last drop of blood out of this club.
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There can't be much blood left in this club after they have sucked it out of us for the last 21 years. You are bang on about this joint ownership (makes me shudder) completing lacking ambition and unwilling to put it any more due to own debt issues.
 
The only thing keep me sane is that we used to spend like there is no tomorrow and brought us nowhere.

We really need to pray hard that Berrada and Wilcox know exactly what they are doing. Perhaps, they are some reserve players ready to step up?

When we were dominating the PL, SAF never spend crazy monies but instead rely on young players and astute signings.
 
Yakuza_devils said:
The only thing keep me sane is that we used to spend like there is no tomorrow and brought us nowhere.

We really need to pray hard that Berrada and Wilcox know exactly what they are doing. Perhaps, they are some reserve players ready to step up?

When we were dominating the PL, SAF never spend crazy monies but instead rely on young players and astute signings.
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Because we spent all that money on crap, we weren't spending big on top players.
Some of our best players under Sir Alex were record transfers. Keane, Cole, Yorke, Stam, rio, ruud, rooney. People conviently forget that and pretend we won with just academy players and cheap signings. Take the class of 92 out which was a once in a lifetime thing and you're left with Fletcher and Brown from the academy and first team players
 
ron86 said:
Because we spent all that money on crap, we weren't spending big on top players.
Some of our best players under Sir Alex were record transfers. Keane, Cole, Yorke, Stam, rio, ruud, rooney. People conviently forget that and pretend we won with just academy players and cheap signings. Take the class of 92 out which was a once in a lifetime thing and you're left with Fletcher and Brown from the academy and first team players
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Yes, SAF did spent big on some players but it was rare. He was known for developing young players and making astute signings with right characters to build the squad.

To be fair to Berrada and Wilcox, overall we are doing much better in term of signings compared to Ed, Arnold and Murtough era.

I know it's not enough compared to Arsenal and City. But we can't rebuild in one or two seasons when we are still trying to clear the mess from the previous regime.

It will take 1 or 2 more years. Hence, the 2028 target! But I think it will be around 2030? We are still quite far away from top teams like Arsenal and City
 
Yakuza_devils said:
Yes, SAF did spent big on some players but it was rare. He was known for developing young players and making astute signings with right characters to build the squad.

To be fair to Berrada and Wilcox, overall we are doing much better in term of signings compared to Ed, Arnold and Murtough era.

I know it's not enough compared to Arsenal and City. But we can't rebuild in one or two seasons when we are still trying to clear the mess from the previous regime.

It will take 1 or 2 more years. Hence, the 2028 target! But I think it will be around 2030? We are still quite far away from top teams like Arsenal and City
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The 2028 target was stupid from the start, you only set that if the team just wants to add finishing touches
 
Yakuza_devils said:
Yes, SAF did spent big on some players but it was rare. He was known for developing young players and making astute signings with right characters to build the squad.

To be fair to Berrada and Wilcox, overall we are doing much better in term of signings compared to Ed, Arnold and Murtough era.

I know it's not enough compared to Arsenal and City. But we can't rebuild in one or two seasons when we are still trying to clear the mess from the previous regime.

It will take 1 or 2 more years. Hence, the 2028 target! But I think it will be around 2030? We are still quite far away from top teams like Arsenal and City
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I see it being closer to to 2045. Our ownership jsut care about cl, we are competing against teams going all out to win the thing, not just qualify. Hopefully I'm wrong, fingers crossed!
 
croadyman said:
The 2028 target was stupid from the start, you only set that if the team just wants to add finishing touches
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Yes our football structure still in its infancy. City and Arsenal build their squad many years with Pep and Arteta. Making combination of astute signings, marquee signings and excellent youth systems.

We have rebuild well in our youth system but it will takes years to see the results. We are also better and more astute in signings. The only thing missing is a very good manager. Carrick is still a doubt.
 
VP89 said:
I'm not talking of his injury because I caveated injury free.

Injury free de ligt is quite obviously clear of what we have. If you think that's debatable then we can end the discussion. We all know how great he was before his injuries so it's a bit laughable to suggest otherwise.

I'm actually focusing on your point, which was that our first choice back four is the same as 2022. De ligt with no injury, fully fit makes this so your hypothetical unchanged comment goes in the bin.

What was the point you wanted to make from that, that we didn't bother to address it? Is that it?

Why do you think this back 4 is a problem? Do you think it has a track record of conceding a lot under Carrick?
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Unfortunately injury-free De Ligt doesn't exist, so it's a pointless hypothetical.
 
ron86 said:
I see it being closer to to 2045. Our ownership jsut care about cl, we are competing against teams going all out to win the thing, not just qualify. Hopefully I'm wrong, fingers crossed!
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We never known! But in reality, we finished 3rd last season. This season target is to maintain consistentcy qualify for CL. I believe we have the squad to finish top 5. Next season we will go up another level for the push to the summit!

If we keep the pace of the rebuild, the projected 2028-30 could be a reality.
 
Big Ben Foster said:
Unfortunately injury-free De Ligt doesn't exist, so it's a pointless hypothetical.
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It's more the poster tried to frame a point that insinuated we didn't fix the defence in that time. We did make upgrades, we were just set back by injury to our best one.
 
Yakuza_devils said:
We really need to pray that either Dorgu or Amass could have the break through season at LB, if Shaw is injured.
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Every time I've watched Amass he has looked horrific defensively. We really need to stop the wishful thinking that he's going to come good.
 
If anyone wants to be even more depressed, just remember that a ‘one game away from relegation’ Spurs were able to financially flex their muscles in the transfer window more we were.
 
Yakuza_devils said:
Yes our football structure still in its infancy. City and Arsenal build their squad many years with Pep and Arteta. Making combination of astute signings, marquee signings and excellent youth systems.

We have rebuild well in our youth system but it will takes years to see the results. We are also better and more astute in signings. The only thing missing is a very good manager. Carrick is still a doubt.
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Yeah he needed to at least make it more realistic, even IF we actually address defence next summer it still takes years to actually get over line as Arsenal can attest
 
Woodzy said:
If anyone wants to be even more depressed, just remember that a ‘one game away from relegation’ Spurs were able to financially flex their muscles in the transfer window more we were.
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To make it even more depressing, one of the reasons they were able to do so was because they beat us in a European final and got Champions League money
 
Blood Mage said:
Every time I've watched Amass he has looked horrific defensively. We really need to stop the wishful thinking that he's going to come good.
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I would like to think that Lacey and Amass could step up to play a part in the first team. Hopefully Fletchers too and we have many cup games.
 
Glazer family has directly taken out roughly £300 million to £400 million in direct personal payouts (dividends, share sales, and management fees) since their leveraged buyout of Manchester United PLC in 2005. Their ownership structure has cost the club over £1.1 billion in total cash outflows to service the debt they placed on it.

If Sir Jim walks away, then I just hope these scavengers find it virtually impossible to find another backer to bank role them.
 
RopersReturn said:
Glazer family has directly taken out roughly £300 million to £400 million in direct personal payouts (dividends, share sales, and management fees) since their leveraged buyout of Manchester United PLC in 2005. Their ownership structure has cost the club over £1.1 billion in total cash outflows to service the debt they placed on it.
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Their biggest sin is not the leveraged buyouts, debts and taking dividends. Don't get me wrong, these are serious issues affecting the club badly. They are idiots!

Thier biggest sin is they have no interest in football and let Ed, Arnold and Murtough play real life Fifa on us that ruined the club and set the club back for decades.
 
RopersReturn said:
Glazer family has directly taken out roughly £300 million to £400 million in direct personal payouts (dividends, share sales, and management fees) since their leveraged buyout of Manchester United PLC in 2005. Their ownership structure has cost the club over £1.1 billion in total cash outflows to service the debt they placed on it.

If Sir Jim walks away, then I just hope these scavengers find it virtually impossible to find another backer to bank role them.
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Yes. And these are the people Jim is firmly in bed with now. The lifeline he provided has them remain as an eternal noose around the club's neck.
 
dinostar77 said:
Let's hope the glazers really do want to exit. State ownership would allow us to compete with City and PSG

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It's true.
images
 
Yakuza_devils said:
Yes our football structure still in its infancy. City and Arsenal build their squad many years with Pep and Arteta. Making combination of astute signings, marquee signings and excellent youth systems.

We have rebuild well in our youth system but it will takes years to see the results. We are also better and more astute in signings. The only thing missing is a very good manager. Carrick is still a doubt.
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It really doesn't take that long to build a title contending squad if you're a big club. Generally 2-3 years tops (can be sooner).

This notion that it's this super long road that requires a ton of struggle is just false.
 
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