Cold War against China?

On this topic, China's insane military buildup continues, again focusing hugely on power projection naval assets.

I wonder when they will stop - there comes a point of diminishing returns. A gigantic surface fleet designed to power project only for it to not actually do any power projection outside of some African missions and the occassional foray into the Persian Gulf and Red Sea.

What I really hope is not happening is they reach a point of critical mass so they press the button and decide to leave the Pacific in fire.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
On this topic, China's insane military buildup continues, again focusing hugely on power projection naval assets.

I wonder when they will stop - there comes a point of diminishing returns. A gigantic surface fleet designed to power project only for it to not actually do any power projection outside of some African missions and the occassional foray into the Persian Gulf and Red Sea.

What I really hope is not happening is they reach a point of critical mass so they press the button and decide to leave the Pacific in fire.
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Is that point of critical mass anywhere close to having a fleet the size of the US Navy?
 
adexkola said:
Is that point of critical mass anywhere close to having a fleet the size of the US Navy?
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It's already got more surface combatants than the USN. It has more capital ships, and their main surface combatants are generally the same size as the US ones. Around 60 Destroyers and 60 Frigates, which exceed the number of US Destroyers + Frigates + Cruisers.

Of course, the USN is much larger in tonnage because it's very top heavy, with 11 Aircraft Carriers and lots of Amphibious Assault Ships and LHD's. But even then that gap is closing.

However, that in itself is kind of redundant because it's not a direct comparison between USN and PLAN here.

US has to worry about 2 oceans around its geographical location - Atlantic and Pacific. It has to worry about its very important strategic interests in Europe and Middle East. Meanwhile China just needs to worry about the South China Sea, which they've already militarized, and the Pacific so their entire Navy can be bought to bare.

The real comparison is 3rd Fleet + 7th Fleet vs PLAN. Which...does not look good for the US at the moment.

Japanese/Koreans aiding the US is brings it to about even parity. But even then the long term calculus is not good, which is why the US military is diverting all available resources to the Pacific in its force structures.

Biggest problem remains, as always, shipbuilding, or lack thereof.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
It's already got more surface combatants than the USN. It has more capital ships, and their main surface combatants are generally the same size as the US ones. Around 60 Destroyers and 60 Frigates, which exceed the number of US Destroyers + Frigates + Cruisers.

Of course, the USN is much larger in tonnage because it's very top heavy, with 11 Aircraft Carriers and lots of Amphibious Assault Ships and LHD's. But even then that gap is closing.

However, that in itself is kind of redundant because it's not a direct comparison between USN and PLAN here.

US has to worry about 2 oceans around its geographical location - Atlantic and Pacific. It has to worry about its very important strategic interests in Europe and Middle East. Meanwhile China just needs to worry about the South China Sea, which they've already militarized, and the Pacific so their entire Navy can be bought to bare.

The real comparison is 3rd Fleet + 7th Fleet vs PLAN. Which...does not look good for the US at the moment.

Japanese/Koreans aiding the US is brings it to about even parity. But even then the long term calculus is not good, which is why the US military is diverting all available resources to the Pacific in its force structures.

Biggest problem remains, as always, shipbuilding, or lack thereof.
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Unless america brings it's shipbuilding capacity to near parity with China it's always going to lose a full blown war short of nuclear annihilation assuming that's something capable of happening and the aforementioned would require a fundamental America's approach to it's economy to bring it more in line to the eras bygone, something I'm not sure it's capable of anymore.

The higher-ups probably still belive the threat of nuclear warfare will be enough to deter any such conflict from blowing up.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
It's already got more surface combatants than the USN. It has more capital ships, and their main surface combatants are generally the same size as the US ones. Around 60 Destroyers and 60 Frigates, which exceed the number of US Destroyers + Frigates + Cruisers.

Of course, the USN is much larger in tonnage because it's very top heavy, with 11 Aircraft Carriers and lots of Amphibious Assault Ships and LHD's. But even then that gap is closing.

However, that in itself is kind of redundant because it's not a direct comparison between USN and PLAN here.

US has to worry about 2 oceans around its geographical location - Atlantic and Pacific. It has to worry about its very important strategic interests in Europe and Middle East. Meanwhile China just needs to worry about the South China Sea, which they've already militarized, and the Pacific so their entire Navy can be bought to bare.

The real comparison is 3rd Fleet + 7th Fleet vs PLAN. Which...does not look good for the US at the moment.

Japanese/Koreans aiding the US is brings it to about even parity. But even then the long term calculus is not good, which is why the US military is diverting all available resources to the Pacific in its force structures.

Biggest problem remains, as always, shipbuilding, or lack thereof.
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It's not just Korean and Japanese ships in the pacific though. Countries like the Philippines have naval capability because of the threats in the area, with some of it donated by the US and are actively getting new ships built. There's a few other countries in the area like Indonesia building naval capability I thought?
 
"The documentary... is rife with disinformation and false propaganda, serving as a political tool for Philippines to pursue illegitimate claims in the South China Sea. Its screening would severely mislead the public and send the wrong message internationally," the email from the Chinese Consulate read.
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Germany accuses China of laser targeting aircraft in EU mission
Germany summoned the Chinese ambassador to the foreign ministry on Tuesday after saying China's military had laser targeted a German aircraft taking part in an EU operation in the Red Sea.
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A Chinese warship, which had been encountered several times in the area, had laser targeted the aircraft with no reason or prior communication during a routine mission flight, said a ministry spokesperson. The incident took place at the beginning of July.
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https://www.reuters.com/business/ae...-aircraft-with-laser-eu-operation-2025-07-08/
 
How China Influences Elections in America’s Biggest City
The Chinese Consulate in Manhattan has mobilized community groups to defeat candidates who don’t fall in line with the authoritarian state.
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In New York City, social clubs backed by China undermined a congressional candidate who once challenged the regime on Chinese television. They helped unseat a state senator for attending a banquet with the president of Taiwan. And they condemned a City Council candidate on social media for supporting Hong Kong democracy.
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https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/25/nyregion/china-consulate-new-york-elections.html
 
Seizing airfields could allow troops to flow in by air, but as Russia discovered during its invasion of Ukraine, runways can be quickly denied. The PLA is therefore eager to identify ways of diversifying both the methods and locations at which it can move units onto Taiwan.
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they’re threatening to interfere if we interfere with their interference?
 
China intimidated UK university to ditch human rights research, documents show
China waged a campaign of harassment and intimidation directed at a UK university to get it to shut down sensitive research into alleged human rights abuses, documents seen by the BBC show
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A government spokesperson told the BBC "any attempt by a foreign state to intimidate, harass or harm individuals in the UK will not be tolerated, and the government has made this clear to Beijing after learning of this case".
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https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cq50j5vwny6o
 
Suedesi said:
Here's a good discussion from some smart professors on the cold war with China

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Both Diesen and Sachs are just propagandists for Russia & China. Is everything they say BS? Probably not but keep it it mind. Sachs for example lied about receiving some honor from Macron personally and then invented that Macron privately told him NATO expansion is to blame for the war in Ukraine.
 
VorZakone said:
Both Diesen and Sachs are just propagandists for Russia & China. Is everything they say BS? Probably not but keep it it mind. Sachs for example lied about receiving some honor from Macron personally and then invented that Macron privately told him NATO expansion is to blame for the war in Ukraine.
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Sure buddy
 
VorZakone said:
Sachs are just propagandists for Russia & China
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I've listened to him at length in debates about China with other geopolitical theorists and he's clearly not a Chinese propagandist as he sees the US/China entering in economic competition he just states that it need not be military unless the US pushes it in that direction. Many would agree with that given the state of play. And plenty people, many of them irrational anti-Chinese, too, though not all, would disagree.
 
neverdie said:
I've listened to him at length in debates about China with other geopolitical theorists and he's clearly not a Chinese propagandist as he sees the US/China entering in economic competition he just states that it need not be military unless the US pushes it in that direction. Many would agree with that given the state of play. And plenty people, many of them irrational anti-Chinese, too, though not all, would disagree.
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I don't give a shit what people say about Sachs or Diesen, or really anyone—that's all part of being in this world. What matters are the arguments themselves.

You're right of course, Sachs isn't arguing for Chinese interests, he's arguing that economic competition doesn't have to become military competition unless we force it there. That's a defensable position whether you agree with it or not.

Dismissing everyone who questions US policy as a "propagandist" is just a way to avoid engaging with the actual substance of what they're saying.

But I guess slapping labels on people is easier than actually thinking.
 
You would think the Chinese want to profit off Trump's chaos but it seems they like some spicy rhetoric too.

Japan and China exchange barbs after PM Takaichi's remarks over Taiwan
Takaichi, who was elected as the country’s first female prime minister last month, said Friday that Chinese use of force around Taiwan would qualify as “an existential threat”. Her comment sparked sharp criticisms from Beijing over the weekend.
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We have no choice but cut off that dirty neck that has been lunged at us without hesitation. Are you ready?” Chinese Consul General Xue Jian said in a message posted on X, which was later deleted.
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https://abcnews.go.com/Internationa...ge-barbs-after-pm-takaichis-remarks-127372811
 
China’s shadow navy trains to take Taiwan
China is mobilizing an armada of civilian ships that could help in an invasion of Taiwan – a mission that could surpass the Second World War’s Normandy landings.
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A Reuters visual investigation of China's annual naval exercises off the Chinese coast opposite Taiwan shows how Beijing's ‘shadow navy’ of civilian ships is training to help in a mass landing of troops and materiel on the island.
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https://www.reuters.com/graphics/US...l_handle_id=114050161948682&utm_medium=Social
 
China completed a working prototype of an EUV machine and also had ASML veterans working on the project.

Exclusive: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips
In April, ASML CEO Christophe Fouquet said that China would need "many, many years" to develop such technology. But the existence of this prototype, reported by Reuters for the first time, suggests China may be years closer to achieving semiconductor independence than analysts anticipated.
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The people described it as China's version of the Manhattan Project, the U.S. wartime effort to develop the atomic bomb. “The aim is for China to eventually be able to make advanced chips on machines that are entirely China-made,” one of the people said. " China wants the United States 100% kicked out of its supply chains."
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The Chinese prototype is crude compared to ASML's machines but operational enough for testing, the people said. China's prototype lags behind ASML's machines largely because researchers have struggled to obtain optical systems like those from Germany's Carl Zeiss AG, one of ASML's key suppliers, the two people said.
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While the EUV project is run by the Chinese government, Huawei is involved in every step of the supply chain from chip design and fabrication equipment to manufacturing and final integration into products like smartphones, according to four people familiar with Huawei’s operations. CEO Ren Zhengfei briefs senior Chinese leaders on progress, according to one of the people.
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https://www.reuters.com/world/china...attan-project-rival-west-ai-chips-2025-12-17/
 
Smores said:
Shadow navy, how scary and mysterious. Good thing the colourful language stops there, oh wait they're also 'mobilising an armada' :lol:
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How are they not?

The tonnage of new warships make year on year is the same as the Entire Royal Navy.

It's so frustrating to see people refuse to acknowledge the existential threat that China poses to the Western world.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
How are they not?

The tonnage of new warships make year on year is the same as the Entire Royal Navy.

It's so frustrating to see people refuse to acknowledge the existential threat that China poses to the Western world.
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If China took the role of the world's top superpower and wielded more influence than what the US, Europe and other aligned countries have now- in what way would we be any worse off?
 
ericking said:
If China took the role of the world's top superpower and wielded more influence than what the US, Europe and other aligned countries have now- in what way would we be any worse off?
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I suggest you read China's recent geopolitical aims that isn't just Taiwan related.

Tl;dr

China is obsessed with it's "Century of humiliation" and there's a sense of itching for blood amongst other things amongst the population.

Read Zhihu/Sina/Weibo to find people constantly talking about "We must do to them what they did to us 200 years ago". Any dissenting voice in these discussions is moderated out and their comment removed by official CCP moderators. It's genuine madness, the ethno-nationalism that is stirring under the pot.

I guess the key difference between far-right populism in Europe/USA is that the vast majority of it is intrinsic and internal facing.

China's is outward facing.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
I suggest you read China's recent geopolitical aims that isn't just Taiwan related.

Tl;dr

China is obsessed with it's "Century of humiliation" and there's a sense of itching for blood amongst other things amongst the population.

Read Zhihu/Sina/Weibo to find people constantly talking about "We must do to them what they did to us 200 years ago". Any dissenting voice in these discussions is moderated out and their comment removed by official CCP moderators. It's genuine madness, the ethno-nationalism that is stirring under the pot.

I guess the key difference between far-right populism in Europe/USA is that the vast majority of it is intrinsic and internal facing.

China's is outward facing.
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So China is going to wage a hot war against all of Europe and the US in the coming years? What does this look like, in your opinion?
 
Mogget said:
So China is going to wage a hot war against all of Europe and the US in the coming years? What does this look like, in your opinion?
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Not necessarily.

Hot war, cold war or economic war. The latter is already happening.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
Not necessarily.

Hot war, cold war or economic war. The latter is already happening.
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But how is China going to threaten the existence of the Western world? By calling China an existential threat you must think they're going to bring about the end of Western civilisation? I'm sure I've asked you about this a few times on here but I still don't understand why or how China is going to do this.
 
Mogget said:
But how is China going to threaten the existence of the Western world? By calling China an existential threat you must think they're going to bring about the end of Western civilisation? I'm sure I've asked you about this a few times on here but I still don't understand why or how China is going to do this.
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When you control the supply taps to the western worlds goods beyond basic food security what do you think will happen if the taps are suddenly turned off?

It’s why of all the bullshit trump did having a hilariously stupid tariff of like 200% on china would yield short term pain but long term good. It’s a shame Europe would never follow.
 
I mean just look at the rare earth metal license crap that china recently pulled that’s a necessity for all US industry. Thankfully there’s still enough capacity and surplus outside of china for it not to be a long term problem but that is enough of an indication itself.
 
Afonso- I love your knowledge of tanks and stuff, but with regards China you come across as a mental conspiracy theorist- huge holes in your arguments that if made by nearly anyone else I would just put down to lack of intelligence. That can't be the case for you, so I'm struggling to understand why you are so passionate on the matter, while being so far removed from everyone else.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
I mean just look at the rare earth metal license crap that china recently pulled that’s a necessity for all US industry. Thankfully there’s still enough capacity and surplus outside of china for it not to be a long term problem but that is enough of an indication itself.
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Didn't they "pull that crap" because they were in a tariff war? It's just economic leverage that anybody would use. Their country actually has an industrial strategy and everyone else has spent decades just investing in whatever the latest shiny is.
 
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