Conservative MP David Amess stabbed to death

Rhyme Animal

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A working politician does not deserve to be killed, no matter any political views or persuasions.
Hitler? All of the 3rd Reich? Saddam Hussein? Gaddafe?

Worth remembering that all these people were essentially politicians who ended up being killed, and also worth remembering that they created great division and suffering.

Im not excusing this awful crime - but what the Tories have committed upon the people of this country in the past 10 years is so far over the line and has ravaged the nation to such a deep and violent level that inevitably at some point some of the lesser guarded of the party are obviously at increased risk of actions like that.

They are a cruel and callous party.

Obviously it will end up being politically beneficial for them (what isn’t these days?), and it’s a sad state of affairs all ‘round.
 

Fts 74

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Awful news looks like MP's will have to have security at their surgeries from now on which is sad really.

It's really poisonous atm politics, my thoughts go out to his family.
 
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Rarely post on here about anything that's non sporting but wonder why some are calling for the perpetrator to receive the harshest sentence allowable?
Is the life of an MP more important than that of a call centre worker or a farmer who had also been randomly murdered?
It's not that an MPs life is more worth, but murdering an elected official has to be seen as an attack on democracy itself, and it makes sense that the punishment is, or ought to be, more severe. You're right that on a fundamental level it sounds a bit odd, but it makes sense in a representative democracy.
 

owlo

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Horrible news. Should never happen :/ RIP and condolences for the family.

Time for the politician’s to behave like adults and calm people down
Hah. Good luck with that. Tories like Patel will weaponise it like always, and use it to push through more and more totalitarian policies whilst continuing their wolf whistling to the far right.

Meanwhile, Boris himself described the concerns of violence against MP's due to aggressive language fuelling violence as "humbug."
 

Red_toad

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Hitler? All of the 3rd Reich? Saddam Hussein? Gaddafe?

Worth remembering that all these people were essentially politicians who ended up being killed, and also worth remembering that they created great division and suffering.

Im not excusing this awful crime - but what the Tories have committed upon the people of this country in the past 10 years is so far over the line and has ravaged the nation to such a deep and violent level that inevitably at some point some of the lesser guarded of the party are obviously at increased risk of actions like that.

They are a cruel and callous party.

Obviously it will end up being politically beneficial for them (what isn’t these days?), and it’s a sad state of affairs all ‘round.
Comparing this Tory MP to Saddam, Hitler and Gaddafi, interesting, do continue.
 

Compton22

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At 18:25 David asks a question to the PM about what is being done to tackle... violent knife crimes. This was 7 months ago :(
 

Jericholyte2

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Rarely post on here about anything that's non sporting but wonder why some are calling for the perpetrator to receive the harshest sentence allowable?
Is the life of an MP more important than that of a call centre worker or a farmer who had also been randomly murdered?
From my perspective, when I said to throw the book at him, I was meaning as appropriate for murder, not specifically murder of an MP. I can see how this would be different though as, if the murder is politically-oriented or politically-motivated, then it could technically be classified as a terrorist act, which would then mean harsher punishment.
 

Rhyme Animal

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Comparing this Tory MP to Saddam, Hitler and Gaddafi, interesting, do continue.
I didn’t compare him to any of them. I just pointed out that people in politics are targeted and that the more harmful their politics the more likely of that.

I think it’s an awful crime and a sad reflection upon a ravaged and frazzled Britain.
 

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It's not that an MPs life is more worth, but murdering an elected official has to be seen as an attack on democracy itself, and it makes sense that the punishment is, or ought to be, more severe. You're right that on a fundamental level it sounds a bit odd, but it makes sense in a representative democracy.
Murder without mitigation is murder.
The sentences should be consistent IMO.
Not saying the MP's killer should receive any leniency BTW.
 

TheGame

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Horrible news. Should never happen :/ RIP and condolences for the family.



Hah. Good luck with that. Tories like Patel will weaponise it like always, and use it to push through more and more totalitarian policies whilst continuing their wolf whistling to the far right.

Meanwhile, Boris himself described the concerns of violence against MP's due to aggressive language fuelling violence as "humbug."
Here is the clip of it:

 

Red_toad

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Hitler? All of the 3rd Reich? Saddam Hussein? Gaddafe?

Worth remembering that all these people were essentially politicians who ended up being killed, and also worth remembering that they created great division and suffering.
Yep not comparing them at all!
 

Dante

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Hitler? All of the 3rd Reich? Saddam Hussein? Gaddafe?

Worth remembering that all these people were essentially politicians who ended up being killed, and also worth remembering that they created great division and suffering.

Im not excusing this awful crime - but what the Tories have committed upon the people of this country in the past 10 years is so far over the line and has ravaged the nation to such a deep and violent level that inevitably at some point some of the lesser guarded of the party are obviously at increased risk of actions like that.

They are a cruel and callous party.

Obviously it will end up being politically beneficial for them (what isn’t these days?), and it’s a sad state of affairs all ‘round.
Those were all military generals who commanded troops and waged war.

David Amess was in charge of bin collections.
 

Penna

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May he rest in peace. There are a lot of tributes saying he was a kind and thoughtful man, he seems to have been a popular figure on both sides of the House.

It's like the attack on the Lib Dem MP Nigel Jones (20 years ago), except in that instance it was a member of his staff who lost his life.
 

JPRouve

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From my perspective, when I said to throw the book at him, I was meaning as appropriate for murder, not specifically murder of an MP. I can see how this would be different though as, if the murder is politically-oriented or politically-motivated, then it could technically be classified as a terrorist act, which would then mean harsher punishment.
One of the issues with this type of things is that we tend to forget that politicians have the ability to ruin people's lives, I'm pretty sure that there are thousands of people in the UK or France that have directly suffered from political decisions and have genuine hatred for specific people, they are unlikely to do anything violent but some could. It's not necessarily a political act, it could easily be a crime of passion.

I'm not justifiying this murder but when I see politicians blatantly admit their dishonesty like Cummings did the other day, I wonder if they realize that they are dealing with the lives of actual people who may lose it and do terrible things.
 

slyadams

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Whilst MPs go around calling each other scum its no wonder members of the public might actually perceive them as such.
 

Champ

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Hitler? All of the 3rd Reich? Saddam Hussein? Gaddafe?

Worth remembering that all these people were essentially politicians who ended up being killed, and also worth remembering that they created great division and suffering.

Im not excusing this awful crime - but what the Tories have committed upon the people of this country in the past 10 years is so far over the line and has ravaged the nation to such a deep and violent level that inevitably at some point some of the lesser guarded of the party are obviously at increased risk of actions like that.

They are a cruel and callous party.

Obviously it will end up being politically beneficial for them (what isn’t these days?), and it’s a sad state of affairs all ‘round.
I hate the Tories, but doesn't mean he should die for his views.

Calling those despots politicians is slightly disingenuous, (Gaddafi doesn't deserve to be listed among those). They started out as genuine politicians, the ended up being murderers, there's a great distinction between a political action and murder.

Even so, as a humanitarian, I don't believe in violence in any which way, so no, I don't believe those people you mentioned deserve (or deserved) to be killed. Brought to justice? Sure, but killing is never the answer.
They are all someone's husband, son, brother, uncle etc.
 

slyadams

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Hitler? All of the 3rd Reich? Saddam Hussein? Gaddafe?

Worth remembering that all these people were essentially politicians who ended up being killed, and also worth remembering that they created great division and suffering.

Im not excusing this awful crime - but what the Tories have committed upon the people of this country in the past 10 years is so far over the line and has ravaged the nation to such a deep and violent level that inevitably at some point some of the lesser guarded of the party are obviously at increased risk of actions like that.

They are a cruel and callous party.

Obviously it will end up being politically beneficial for them (what isn’t these days?), and it’s a sad state of affairs all ‘round.
Sorry, this is is errant nonsense. Are you suggesting if an MP implements a policy someone doesn't like we should expect murders? I have voted Conservative before, but I didn't vote for this incarnation and never will, but if these policies are so "over the line" it should have been trivial to vote them out of office.
 

Scarlett Dracarys

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So sad.

I've only ever despised one politician enough to briefly wish his death (I didn't really want him to die :nervous: ) and it was just to end his own misery.
 

Rhyme Animal

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I hate the Tories, but doesn't mean he should die for his views.

Calling those despots politicians is slightly disingenuous, (Gaddafi doesn't deserve to be listed among those). They started out as genuine politicians, the ended up being murderers, there's a great distinction between a political action and murder.

Even so, as a humanitarian, I don't believe in violence in any which way, so no, I don't believe those people you mentioned deserve (or deserved) to be killed. Brought to justice? Sure, but killing is never the answer.
They are all someone's husband, son, brother, uncle etc.
I agree with you.

In no way at all do I think he deserved to be attacked, let alone murdered.

And I’m not equating HIM with a dictator, I’m pointing out that damaging, harmful regimes create unstable and violent societies and that he was part of a damaging and harmful party.

Sorry, this is is errant nonsense. Are you suggesting if an MP implements a policy someone doesn't like we should expect murders? I have voted Conservative before, but I didn't vote for this incarnation and never will, but if these policies are so "over the line" it should have been trivial to vote them out of office.
“Policies we don’t like” is trivialising what this Tory party have done to the nation, it’s like saying “actions we don’t like” when describing this awful crime.

Understanding that outrageous, harmful political actions lead to outrageous, harmful actions from the more unstable members of the society isn’t to condone them.
 
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Jericholyte2

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One of the issues with this type of things is that we tend to forget that politicians have the ability to ruin people's lives, I'm pretty sure that there are thousands of people in the UK or France that have directly suffered from political decisions and have genuine hatred for specific people, they are unlikely to do anything violent but some could. It's not necessarily a political act, it could easily be a crime of passion.

I'm not justifiying this murder but when I see politicians blatantly admit their dishonesty like Cummings did the other day, I wonder if they realize that they are dealing with the lives of actual people who may lose it and do terrible things.
I can completely understand the thinking with this. On my previous post about this I mentioned how I can understand how people can be pushed to resorting to violence due to the decisions that the government make which directly impact their lives, often for the worse. There will always be the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back.
 

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Those were all military generals who commanded troops and waged war.

David Amess was in charge of bin collections.
I think Rhyme's point has been misinterpreted. He wasn't arguing what champ said in the context of this thread, but this statement in general

"A working politician does not deserve to be killed, no matter any political views or persuasions"

For example you've mentioned military generals as if that would be a vindicating factor (and I agree), but someone like Goebbels wasn't a military man, and didn't command troops. Some people would definitely say he deserved death based on his political actions and the horror he brought.

Like you said regarding Amess it's a completely different situation, but Rhyme was never arguing that, he was arguing against Champ's statement. In which there will be many different viewpoints.

I hate the Tories, but doesn't mean he should die for his views.

Calling those despots politicians is slightly disingenuous, (Gaddafi doesn't deserve to be listed among those). They started out as genuine politicians, the ended up being murderers, there's a great distinction between a political action and murder.

Even so, as a humanitarian, I don't believe in violence in any which way, so no, I don't believe those people you mentioned deserve (or deserved) to be killed. Brought to justice? Sure, but killing is never the answer.
They are all someone's husband, son, brother, uncle etc.
I would say looking at the long history of politics, that this is tangibly not the case. There might be a personal distinction to you, but the boundaries of the distinction will shift depending on the person.

Regarding the second bit, I think you make a good argument but there's a lot of variables.


Sorry, this is is errant nonsense. Are you suggesting if an MP implements a policy someone doesn't like we should expect murders? I have voted Conservative before, but I didn't vote for this incarnation and never will, but if these policies are so "over the line" it should have been trivial to vote them out of office.
He's not at any point said what you're implying here.

Whilst MPs go around calling each other scum its no wonder members of the public might actually perceive them as such.
Silly comment
 

sebsheep

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Here is the clip of it:

Guy is still the PM as well....
Obviously something does need to be said about these actions towards politicians, but really couldn't care what Johnson has to say.
 

Pexbo

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Guy is still the PM as well....
Obviously something does need to be said about these actions towards politicians, but really couldn't care what Johnson has to say.
So to be clear you take issue at what Femi has said there but couldn’t care less what Boris Johnson said?
 

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Another dreadful day in British politics and sadly just like the death of Jo Cox, rather than any real attempt to unite this country or deal with the issues and people that cause so much division and strife - this needless death will be politicised and weaponised to add more heat to the culture war fires.

I am embarrassed by what this country has become.
 

slyadams

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He's not at any point said what you're implying here.
I get that the person who committed this crime probably has very strong objections to Tory policy, but debating the merit of that position only serves to validate it and to be honest just comes across as cheap political point scoring.

Silly comment
What a well thought out response. The point is clear: when people in positions of power use unmoderated language to dehumanize people there will be people out there who will react to that. If you disagree, that's fine but I remember many people desperately asking Boris Johnson to moderate his language because there was fear it would encourage violence. You can't really have it both ways, although God knows you'll try.
 

T00lsh3d

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One of the issues with this type of things is that we tend to forget that politicians have the ability to ruin people's lives, I'm pretty sure that there are thousands of people in the UK or France that have directly suffered from political decisions and have genuine hatred for specific people, they are unlikely to do anything violent but some could. It's not necessarily a political act, it could easily be a crime of passion.

I'm not justifiying this murder but when I see politicians blatantly admit their dishonesty like Cummings did the other day, I wonder if they realize that they are dealing with the lives of actual people who may lose it and do terrible things.
I reckon there’s a desensitising process for politicians. If it were on your mind all the time how people’s lives were affected by your every move you’d end up a nervous wreck in no time. You probably need to be able to get past that
 

slyadams

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Sweet Jesus, now we have people trying to throw this on Angela Rayner's lap?
I'm not putting it on Rayner's lap, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of the "words have consequences" position the Labour party have had for the past few years when their deputy leader uses such language. To be clear: Boris' language is nasty, Rayner's language is nasty, but at least that's a consistent position.
 

Gehrman

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Hitler? All of the 3rd Reich? Saddam Hussein? Gaddafe?

Worth remembering that all these people were essentially politicians who ended up being killed, and also worth remembering that they created great division and suffering.


Im not excusing this awful crime - but what the Tories have committed upon the people of this country in the past 10 years is so far over the line and has ravaged the nation to such a deep and violent level that inevitably at some point some of the lesser guarded of the party are obviously at increased risk of actions like that.

They are a cruel and callous party.

Obviously it will end up being politically beneficial for them (what isn’t these days?), and it’s a sad state of affairs all ‘round.
Christ.