Conservative MP David Amess stabbed to death

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P-Ro

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Awful news. The fact that it's in a church makes it even more savage to me.

News of a tory death always brings out the scumbags of this forum.
 

oates

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Presumably @Stanley Road is also delighted about this.

RIP, what an awful way to go. :(
Crikey Col, give him a chance to put his own foot in his mouth.

Very sorry for his loved ones and constituents. I understand he was very well respected and didn't seek higher office. A loss to the country really.
 

MikeUpNorth

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Sweet Jesus, now we have people trying to throw this on Angela Rayner's lap?
If it turns out the murderer used similar words, then inevitably it will be a major talking point. But then, that's the risk politicians take when they use dehumanising terms for their opponents.
 

oates

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Did you see his post in the Celebrity Death Pool thread when James Brokenshaw passed away recently?
Yes. Didn't agree with that but no need for you to up the ante in the CE.
 

Sweet Square

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Crikey Col, give him a chance to put his own foot in his mouth.

Very sorry for his loved ones and constituents. I understand he was very well respected and didn't seek higher office. A loss to the country really.
Not the thread for this but just have a look at his voting record.
 

Cascarino

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I get that the person who committed this crime probably has very strong objections to Tory policy, but debating the merit of that position only serves to validate it and to be honest just comes across as cheap political point scoring.

While that may be true or false, I was just pointing out that people were misinterpreting Rhyme's statement (I think @Gehrman and @Sassy Colin are the latest ones). People can agree or disagree with his stance on Champ's statement, but those who are framing his words as if he is anyway justifying what happened today are at best mistaken, or at worst being deliberately obtuse and making a false equivalence



What a well thought out response. The point is clear: when people in positions of power use unmoderated language to dehumanize people there will be people out there who will react to that. If you disagree, that's fine but I remember many people desperately asking Boris Johnson to moderate his language because there was fear it would encourage violence. You can't really have it both ways, although God knows you'll try.
:lol: the bolded was a pretty funny reply to be fair.

Johnson has referred to gay men as tank-topped bum boys and muslim women as letterboxes. Groups who face oppression and violence because of their identity. Calling someone scum because you disagree with them being homophobic is different to calling someone scum because of their sexual orientation.

Let's save the theorising until we actually know what happened and why.
If it turns out the murderer used similar words, then inevitably it will be a major talking point. But then, that's the risk politicians take when they use dehumanising terms for their opponents.
Remarkable that these were posted like an hour apart.
 

oates

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Not the thread for this but just have a look at his voting record.
I'm hardly going to track that down and then speak ill of the dead. Someone would then lecture me that there's more to being an MP than voting.
 

Deery

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Only hearing about this news, terrible a man stabbed to death for just being out doing his job.
 

Gehrman

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While that may be true or false, I was just pointing out that people were misinterpreting Rhyme's statement (I think @Gehrman and @Sassy Colin are the latest ones). People can agree or disagree with his stance on Champ's statement, but those who are framing his words as if he is anyway justifying what happened today are at best mistaken, or at worst being deliberately obtuse and making a false equivalence





:lol: the bolded was a pretty funny reply to be fair.

Johnson has referred to gay men as tank-topped bum boys and muslim women as letterboxes. Groups who face oppression and violence because of their identity. Calling someone scum because you disagree with them being homophobic is different to calling someone scum because of their sexual orientation.




Remarkable that these were posted like an hour apart.
I would say that by invoking Hitler, the 3rd Reich, Saddam Hussein and Gadaffi he was absolutely justifying it. Those houldnt really be mentioned in the same breath as the tories.
 

Champ

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I think Rhyme's point has been misinterpreted. He wasn't arguing what champ said in the context of this thread, but this statement in general

"A working politician does not deserve to be killed, no matter any political views or persuasions"

For example you've mentioned military generals as if that would be a vindicating factor (and I agree), but someone like Goebbels wasn't a military man, and didn't command troops. Some people would definitely say he deserved death based on his political actions and the horror he brought.

Like you said regarding Amess it's a completely different situation, but Rhyme was never arguing that, he was arguing against Champ's statement. In which there will be many different viewpoints.



I would say looking at the long history of politics, that this is tangibly not the case. There might be a personal distinction to you, but the boundaries of the distinction will shift depending on the person.

Regarding the second bit, I think you make a good argument but there's a lot of variables.




He's not at any point said what you're implying here.



Silly comment
Don't get me wrong, a murder can be political, however it's not a political act.

No murder can be attributed, in my view, as a political action.
It can be however, the consequence of a political stance, but politics in its purest form isn't violent.

Anyhow, I believe this conversation is best served on a day when an MP hasn't been murdered, and when copious amounts of weed is involved.
 

Raven

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I get that the person who committed this crime probably has very strong objections to Tory policy, but debating the merit of that position only serves to validate it and to be honest just comes across as cheap political point scoring.


What a well thought out response. The point is clear: when people in positions of power use unmoderated language to dehumanize people there will be people out there who will react to that. If you disagree, that's fine but I remember many people desperately asking Boris Johnson to moderate his language because there was fear it would encourage violence. You can't really have it both ways, although God knows you'll try.
There's a difference between the terms traitor and scum. Especially when the term traitor was applied generally to remainers and the term scum was applied specifically to Boris Johnson (regarding racist and homophobic comments which he refuses to apologise for), who is indeed scum.
 

acnumber9

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There’s more posts in this thread from people saying it’s a disgrace that people in this thread are saying he deserved to die than there are posts saying he deserved to die. Which wouldn’t be difficult, because that number is zero.
 

Gehrman

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There’s more posts in this thread from people saying it’s a disgrace that people in this thread are saying he deserved to die than there are posts saying he deserved to die. Which wouldn’t be difficult, because that number is zero.
Apart from DJ Jeff
 

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I would say that by invoking Hitler, the 3rd Reich, Saddam Hussein and Gadaffi he was absolutely justifying it. Those houldnt really be mentioned in the same breath as the tories.
He didn't invoke them as justifications or comparisons, but as the worst personifications of the "working politician", which was the comment he replied to. I can understand if someone thinks this isn't the thread for such talks or that Rhyme interpreted the word politician too loosely, and @Dante mentioned the disparity in their powers and roles etc, which are all fair points, but it was blatantly clear that Rhyme wasn't saying that Amess was like the aforementioned lot or that he in any way deserved what happened (he's explicitly stated in this thread that he didn't deserve to be attacked or that he was anything like the others).

Don't get me wrong, a murder can be political, however it's not a political act.

No murder can be attributed, in my view, as a political action.
It can be however, the consequence of a political stance, but politics in its purest form isn't violent.

Anyhow, I believe this conversation is best served on a day when an MP hasn't been murdered, and when copious amounts of weed is involved.
That's a fair point! with something less direct than murder, I'd think of something like the anti LGBT policies somewhere like Chechnya for example. Policies enabled within the legal framework, but still seeped in violence.

As you said though you're right this is the wrong place and time for such a conversation, and I fully understand that your original comment was referring to the current situation, in which there can be no argument that not only is it a horrific act but also something that could have repercussions on politics here going forward.
 

oates

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Apart from DJ Jeff
Never have so many had the opportunity of self gratifyingly complaining over one stupid post. On the beaches, in the streets, on the CE.

It may be a while if ever before we discover any motive but the strength of feeling regarding one party's blithe dismissal of the problems they have caused certain sections of society surely cannot be dismissed. At least we haven't started eating our pets yet.
 

Gehrman

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Who never said anything about him deserving to die. Probably an ill judged comment he didn’t fully mean.
"He definitely deserves to be stabbed for being a tory, but I hope he doesn't die".
 

oates

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"He definitely deserves to be stabbed for being a tory, but I hope he doesn't die".
Maybe a language issue? He did not do what you first accused him of.
 

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I'm seeing headlines that he was stabbed at surgery? Am I misunderstanding something or was he attacked again in the ward? :houllier:
A political surgery, like one to one meetings they have with their constituents.

Edit: well nevermind feck me right
 

oates

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Well no he just made a point that you deserve a literal stabbing for being a tory.
Exactly, let's not gild the lily eh?
 

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What does "African appearance" even mean?

Why, after a violent hate crime, do the media insist on further sowing the seeds for division and hatred?
 

oates

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Surgery is similar to the US town hall meetings.
Never seen a US town hall meeting but I've met my MP at one of his surgery's one to one before.
 

Classical Mechanic

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For non-British posters. Are there anything like the surgeries we have here in other countries, where the public can get regular face to face access to their highest serving local politician?
 

Adisa

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What does "African appearance" even mean?

Why, after a violent hate crime, do the media insist on further sowing the seeds for division and hatred?
Would have more respect for the feckers if they just said he is a black man.
His race has absolutely no relevance here. Bunch of cnuts.
 

Gehrman

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Exactly, let's not gild the lily eh?
Perhaps he meant that tories just deserve a fairly peaceful stabbing. Like a quick stab stab in a shoulder as a gentle reminder that he disagrees with their policies.
 

VorZakone

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What does "African appearance" even mean?

Why, after a violent hate crime, do the media insist on further sowing the seeds for division and hatred?
Because the media makes money with sensationalism.
 

Damien

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Never seen a US town hall meeting but I've met my MP at one of his surgery's one to one before.
Yeah they're different in that town hall meeting is generally a bunch of people sat while the politician is at the front answering questions whereas our surgeries are one to one (like a GP surgery) but it is the closest comparison I could think of.