Conservative MP David Amess stabbed to death

slyadams

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There's a difference between the terms traitor and scum. Especially when the term traitor was applied generally to remainers and the term scum was applied specifically to Boris Johnson (regarding racist and homophobic comments which he refuses to apologise for), who is indeed scum.
I'm not sure where 'traitor' entered the debate, but there's also a different between you calling someone scum on an internet forum and an elected MP, her party's deputy leader, doing it publically. If you can't see the difference in that then I don't know what to say. It sounds like you're OK with MPs calling each other names if they feel justified. I'm sure nothing bad will come from that.

There's a constant logical fallacy being demonstrated on this thread that goes "its OK to dehumanize this person/people, because I agree with it". Every single person on earth can use that argument and feel equally smug about it. I personally think Angela Rayner is an arrogant and naive (dangerous combination) moron. However, it would be entirely wrong for anyone with a public voice to call her a moron. Its slightly bizarre this is contentious. I fully expect to get a response along the lines of "but the Tories have done this and this" thereby following the above fallacy.
 

oates

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Perhaps he meant that tories just deserve a fairly peaceful stabbing. Like a quick stab stab in a shoulder as a gentle reminder that he disagrees with their policies.
Yeah, let's just make it up while we go.

I understand the original offending post has since been removed. It is a dead post. Not sleeping. Let it lie. In peace.
 

Raven

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I'm not sure where 'traitor' entered the debate, but there's also a different between you calling someone scum on an internet forum and an elected MP, her party's deputy leader, doing it publically. If you can't see the difference in that then I don't know what to say. It sounds like you're OK with MPs calling each other names if they feel justified. I'm sure nothing bad will come from that.

There's a constant logical fallacy being demonstrated on this thread that goes "its OK to dehumanize this person/people, because I agree with it". Every single person on earth can use that argument and feel equally smug about it. I personally think Angela Rayner is an arrogant and naive (dangerous combination) moron. However, it would be entirely wrong for anyone with a public voice to call her a moron. Its slightly bizarre this is contentious. I fully expect to get a response along the lines of "but the Tories have done this and this" thereby following the above fallacy.
Because that's exactly the type of language that was being used and that you were referring to? Obviously.

Even if any of what you were saying were true, which of course it not, it's bollocks, Rayner was referring to Johnson specifically and over a specific issue, not labelling all Tories scum (which they are), unlike what Johnson and his band of wankers were doing. For the record, I don't particularly like Rayner either, but you laying the death of a man (for comments made about someone else entirely) on her lap is beyond disgusting.
 

slyadams

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While that may be true or false, I was just pointing out that people were misinterpreting Rhyme's statement (I think @Gehrman and @Sassy Colin are the latest ones). People can agree or disagree with his stance on Champ's statement, but those who are framing his words as if he is anyway justifying what happened today are at best mistaken, or at worst being deliberately obtuse and making a false equivalence

:lol: the bolded was a pretty funny reply to be fair.

Johnson has referred to gay men as tank-topped bum boys and muslim women as letterboxes. Groups who face oppression and violence because of their identity. Calling someone scum because you disagree with them being homophobic is different to calling someone scum because of their sexual orientation.
But that's not what she did. Targetting one person with that statement would be one thing, but she didn't, she referred to Conservatives as "a bunch of scum, homophobic, racist and misogynistic". Not only is that ignorant its also demonstrably incorrect and not the language politicians should be using.

My issue with the whole thread was the lines of reasoning that started out from a policitical position that he was a Tory and therefore <insert line of thought about what bastard Tories are>. It was using a man's death as an excuse to get on a soapbox, it was, and still is, distasteful.
 

adexkola

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Surgery is terminology for where they meet their constituents.
A political surgery, like one to one meetings they have with their constituents.

Edit: well nevermind feck me right
Surgery is similar to the US town hall meetings.
Ah thanks. The mind boggled for a few there.
 

slyadams

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Because that's exactly the type of language that was being used and that you were referring to? Obviously.

Even if any of what you were saying were true, which of course it not, it's bollocks, Rayner was referring to Johnson specifically and over a specific issue, not labelling all Tories scum (which they are), unlike what Johnson and his band of wankers were doing. For the record, I don't particularly like Rayner either, but you laying the death of a man (for comments made about someone else entirely) on her lap is beyond disgusting.
I never once used the word traitor, my debates have been entirely around the terminology Rayner used. Clearly.

Also, you're just factually wrong, Rayner called Conservatives "a bunch of scum, homophobic, racist and misogynistic". She then went on to talk about Johnson, but unless Johnson is now numerous people I fail to see how 'bunch' applies.

I've also not laid the death at her door, I've said repeatedly the perpertrator is the only one to blame, but if you could attempt to apply any kind of nuance to your thinking, I'm saying using dehumanizing language about people has consequences. In the same way Trump supporters who stormed the Capitol building are the ones who committed the crime, but clearly the words Trump used that day, and in the months and yerars leading up to it, had consequences.

Clearly we disagree, and that's OK, I don't think we're going to get much further in this though.
 

Scarlett Dracarys

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What does "African appearance" even mean?

Why, after a violent hate crime, do the media insist on further sowing the seeds for division and hatred?
The media is the root of all corruption and hatred we see nowadays. They gain control by poisoning the minds of the weak.
 

Gehrman

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I'm not sure where 'traitor' entered the debate, but there's also a different between you calling someone scum on an internet forum and an elected MP, her party's deputy leader, doing it publically. If you can't see the difference in that then I don't know what to say. It sounds like you're OK with MPs calling each other names if they feel justified. I'm sure nothing bad will come from that.

There's a constant logical fallacy being demonstrated on this thread that goes "its OK to dehumanize this person/people, because I agree with it". Every single person on earth can use that argument and feel equally smug about it. I personally think Angela Rayner is an arrogant and naive (dangerous combination) moron. However, it would be entirely wrong for anyone with a public voice to call her a moron. Its slightly bizarre this is contentious. I fully expect to get a response along the lines of "but the Tories have done this and this" thereby following the above fallacy.
Calling someone a moron publically really isnt that bad.
 

Ladron de redcafe

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What does "African appearance" even mean?

Why, after a violent hate crime, do the media insist on further sowing the seeds for division and hatred?
I agree. I'm not sure why the physical description of the individual matters here, and I can only assume that the intent is a little insidious.
 

Raven

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I never once used the word traitor, my debates have been entirely around the terminology Rayner used. Clearly.

Also, you're just factually wrong, Rayner called Conservatives "a bunch of scum, homophobic, racist and misogynistic". She then went on to talk about Johnson, but unless Johnson is now numerous people I fail to see how 'bunch' applies.

I've also not laid the death at her door, I've said repeatedly the perpertrator is the only one to blame, but if you could attempt to apply any kind of nuance to your thinking, I'm saying using dehumanizing language about people has consequences. In the same way Trump supporters who stormed the Capitol building are the ones who committed the crime, but clearly the words Trump used that day, and in the months and yerars leading up to it, had consequences.

Clearly we disagree, and that's OK, I don't think we're going to get much further in this though.
I'm not putting it on Rayner's lap, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of the "words have consequences" position the Labour party have had for the past few years when their deputy leader uses such language. To be clear: Boris' language is nasty, Rayner's language is nasty, but at least that's a consistent position.
I was referring to the above comment you made. The language that Boris and boys were using was things like "traitor" and "surrender", yet you think that's on par with calling scummy people "scum", a very common term in England.

You have absolutely laid his death at her door, you said there's no wonder when leaders go around labelling opposition as scum. People should know that the Tories are scum, people shouldn't be afraid to say they are scum and people should stop voting in scum.

To compare first the Tories to Rayner and now taking it a leap further by comparing Trump to Rayner is honestly vile.

I will concede that I was wrong about the direction of her comments though, it was definitely aimed at Tories in General, which actually makes me like her more.
 

hobbers

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People really leaping to conclusions with motive. Could be political, could be a schizophrenic, could be homeless and desperate, could be a botched robbery for all we know.


Calling someone a moron publically really isnt that bad.
Especially a moron with a big public platform and in a position of power. It's necessary in fact.
 

Cascarino

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But that's not what she did. Targetting one person with that statement would be one thing, but she didn't, she referred to Conservatives as "a bunch of scum, homophobic, racist and misogynistic". Not only is that ignorant its also demonstrably incorrect and not the language politicians should be using.

My issue with the whole thread was the lines of reasoning that started out from a policitical position that he was a Tory and therefore <insert line of thought about what bastard Tories are>. It was using a man's death as an excuse to get on a soapbox, it was, and still is, distasteful.
There was one single comment, that got him a warning, and was deleted. It had dozens of comments quoting it condemning it.

If you're unhappy with soapboxing using a man's death, do you not think your contribution fits that bill? Your first comment was

Whilst MPs go around calling each other scum its no wonder members of the public might actually perceive them as such.
I'm not sure what we're debating here?
 

DoubleDinhos

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What does "African appearance" even mean?

Why, after a violent hate crime, do the media insist on further sowing the seeds for division and hatred?
Presume we're going to go from 'our politics are too divisive and we need to be more respectful via political discourse' to 'deport them all and let them drown in the channel' very quickly, here.
 

sebsheep

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What does "African appearance" even mean?

Why, after a violent hate crime, do the media insist on further sowing the seeds for division and hatred?
Africa is a pretty big place with a lot of people who look pretty different from each other. It's not even an important piece of information. Terrible reporting.
 

DOTA

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Presume we're going to go from 'our politics are too divisive and we need to be more respectful via political discourse' to 'deport them all and let them drown in the channel' very quickly, here.
Yeah, there's plenty of it.

 

JPRouve

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Africa is a pretty big place with a lot of people who look pretty different from each other. It's not even an important piece of information. Terrible reporting.
They couldn't say "it's a darkie".
 

decorativeed

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I was referring to the above comment you made. The language that Boris and boys were using was things like "traitor" and "surrender", yet you think that's on par with calling scummy people "scum", a very common term in England.

You have absolutely laid his death at her door, you said there's no wonder when leaders go around labelling opposition as scum. People should know that the Tories are scum, people shouldn't be afraid to say they are scum and people should stop voting in scum.

To compare first the Tories to Rayner and now taking it a leap further by comparing Trump to Rayner is honestly vile.

I will concede that I was wrong about the direction of her comments though, it was definitely aimed at Tories in General, which actually makes me like her more.
Yeah. Particularly northern England. I'm from Rayner's constituency, and I very much doubt anybody round here would consider 'scum' a particularly strong or hurtful word. If she'd have called him a cnut, maybe I'd see your point. Although I'd still agree with her.
 

Wilt

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Absolutely shocking. Thoughts are with his wife, five children and family.
 

JPRouve

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Yeah. Particularly northern England. I'm from Rayner's constituency, and I very much doubt anybody round here would consider 'scum' a particularly strong or hurtful word. If she'd have called him a cnut, maybe I'd see your point. Although I'd still agree with her.
And if she was close to an irish, cnut could actually not be that bad either.
 

Jerch

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I'm for this forum extremely right in political sense but cases like this show how dangerous it is to go into extremes and support, push for and encourage extreme political narrative.
In my opinion (in world sense), and i want to express that I am totally aware could be very different to other people, leftist went to those extremes very often and I hated it but in recent times right wings are taking the same approach.
Since then I rarely follow domestic or global politics cuz I am of opinion that these kind of popularisation of politicians could lead to bad things and we are just moving away from middle ground which is probably the right path to go. I see that kind of politicly as very dangerous and even as a " everything is gonna be fine" type of guy I'm very scared of the world of hatred we are moving into.

RIP, thought for the family and prayers and I hope politics across the world will realize why that happened and what are they doing and will start to work on uniting people and not dividing them. Wishful thinking but still.

Ps: i really write that rarely but my English is not the best so I expressed my thoughts in the best way I possibly could, which is not as good as I would want.
 

oates

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Anyone else is amuzed by the two people he tagged, they are both in the UK through immigration.
Just feel sick really. Seen the replies? These people are Neanderthal.
 

Raven

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Yeah. Particularly northern England. I'm from Rayner's constituency, and I very much doubt anybody round here would consider 'scum' a particularly strong or hurtful word. If she'd have called him a cnut, maybe I'd see your point. Although I'd still agree with her.
Traitor is definitely a stronger term and that's not just in northern England.
 

Gehrman

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So it wasn't potentially terrorism until it was determined that the suspect was non-white?
We dont know yet why they suspected the motive was islamist, but see the Norway thread for an ethnic dane being suspected for the same just yesterday.
 

Longshanks

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I was referring to the above comment you made. The language that Boris and boys were using was things like "traitor" and "surrender", yet you think that's on par with calling scummy people "scum", a very common term in England.

You have absolutely laid his death at her door, you said there's no wonder when leaders go around labelling opposition as scum. People should know that the Tories are scum, people shouldn't be afraid to say they are scum and people should stop voting in scum.

To compare first the Tories to Rayner and now taking it a leap further by comparing Trump to Rayner is honestly vile.

I will concede that I was wrong about the direction of her comments though, it was definitely aimed at Tories in General, which actually makes me like her more.
Your rhetoric is concerning, Rayner calling tories scum and you then following up with 'people should know tories are scum' is really low especially considering the timing. Its discriminatory in all honesty.

Dont like tories and there political ideologies? Then debate them, proove them wrong, win the arguments wow people with your own policies and behaviour, resorting to name-calling is childish, hateful and does nothing other than stir the pot of hate that is the current political climate.
 

JPRouve

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Just feel sick really. Seen the replies? These people are Neanderthal.
Noj I didn't look at replies, the tweet was enough. It just crossed my mind that they would probably send Priti Patel away with the rest.
 

oates

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So it wasn't potentially terrorism until it was determined that the suspect was non-white?
Surely the Essex Police haven't given him enough time to fall down some stairs or trip over something in his cell a few times yet.
 

Widow

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Tory or not, the man's just doing his job. Worst post I've seen on here.
Is that aimed at me? Maybe you miss interpreted who my comment was aimed at.

For the sake of any confusion, I absolutely didn't mean any offence to anyone aside the the idiot poster I quoted.

Maybe my fault for not being clearer, apologies.